Guest MattP Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 An interesting read from ex-Labour party member Dan Hodges for anyone who has been following the Labour/Oxford row over the last two weeks, this element of the party that has always been there really appears to have grown over the last 6 months or so. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12161216/Is-the-Labour-Partys-problem-with-racism-beyond-repair.html Earlier this week Alex Chalmers, the chair of Oxford Labour students, resigned. He was honest and succinct about the reason why. “A large proportion of both OULC and the student left in Oxford more generally have some kind of problem with Jews”, he said. Last night, a statement from the Oxford University Jewish Society began to circulate on social media, claiming to give an insight into how this problem with Jews was actually manifesting itself. According to the statement, senior members of the Labour club liked to regale listeners with a song called “Rockets over Tel Aviv” and endorse Hamas attacks on Israeli civilians. They were in the habit of casually referring to Jewish students as “Zio”. They repeated tropes about the “Zionist lobby” and “high net worth Jewish individuals”. They stated all Jews should be required to denounce Zionism and the state of Israel, and that those who refused to do so should be shunned. And they had arranged for a group of students to harass a Jewish student and shout “filthy Zionist” at her. For obvious reasons, relations between the Oxford University Jewish Society and Oxford University Labour Club are at something of a low ebb. And it will take time to verify the validity of each of these claims. But they align with Alex Chalmers' own statement that members of the Labour club executive “used offensive terms with casual abandon”, and, “had a history of targeting and harassing Jewish students”. Now there are calls for the University authorities and the Labour party to intervene. Such intervention is inadequate. The police need to be called in and if it is true students have been harassed in the way described, people need be arrested and they need to be prosecuted. Then the senior administrators of Oxford University, who have now clearly lost control of their establishment, need to be sacked. At which point attention needs to turn to the Labour Party. It would be nice to be able to write that these reports are shocking. That they are an aberration. That they are anathema to a political party that has a long and proud tradition of combating prejudice. But I can’t write that because these reports are not shocking. They should be, but they are wholly predictable. Nor are they an aberration. They are reflective of a perpetuation – and tolerance of – anti-Semitism that starts at the top of the Labour Party, then steadily works its way down. And are they no longer anathema to Labour or its heritage. Far from it. Anti-Semitism is now firmly embedded in the Labour party’s DNA. A few weeks ago I wrote a piece talking about the hypocrisy of the reaction to the historic racism of Oliver Letwin. About how when it came to bigotry, the Labour Party and the wider Left consistently fail to practice what they preach. But as the events at Oxford University Labour club – the largest and most prestigious university Labour club in the country – reveal, it’s no longer just a question of Labour not practising what it preaches. Labour is now openly prasticing what it preaches against. It’s time for Labour MPs, Labour activists and Labour members face up to a few hard truths. One of which is this. Labour does not have an anti-Semitism problem, Labour has a racism problem. I’ve been as guilty of this as anyone. My articles are littered with references to “racism and anti-Semitism”, as if they are not one and the same thing. Racism – that’s bad. Anti-Semitism – yeah, it’s bad, but it’s a different sort of bad. Not quite as bad. It is as bad. Gathering a gang to go up to a Jewish student and call her a filthy Zionist is the same – exactly the same – as gathering a gang and going up to black student and calling them a filthy n–––––. Another thing the Labour Party needs to understand is that Labour’s racism is now hiding behind a cloak of “anti-Zionism”. The statement “I’m not a racist, I’m an anti-Zionist” has become the Left’s “I’m not a racist but…”, or the Left’s equivalent of “I can’t be called a racist for saying I hate Muslims. Islam is a religion, not a race”. I’m sure that there are people who have spent a lifetime campaigning against what they would call “Zionism” who are not racist. In the same why I’m sure there are people who have spent a lifetime campaigning against immigration who are not racist. That’s not the point. They are now being used as human shields by a lot of people who are racist. And that shield has to be stripped away. Labour also has to realise this is not an accidental but an institutional and systemic failing. It is not “a few bad apples”. Whether it’s the leader’s easy tolerance of racism from his own personal acquaintances. Or the collective endorsement of racist policies such as the boycotting of Jewish speakers or goods. Or the casual racism expressed and tolerated at demonstrations or campaign meetings. Or the racist harassment of Jews on university campuses. Labour is a racist party now. The final thing Labour has to understand is this. This is not another “Jeremy Corbyn” problem. Yes, his own tolerance of racism has exacerbated it. But everyone in the Labour Party has tolerated it. Ask anyone about the racism embedded in the Labour Party and they will shrug. “Yeah, anti-Semitism is a problem. But what can we do?” That’s what Labour does now. It just shrugs. If shrugs won votes, Labour would win every election with a 200 seat majority. It needs to stop shrugging. An NEC investigation into what’s been going on at Oxford won’t cut it. If Labour is going to finally confront it’s own racism, there are several things it needs to do. First, Jeremy Corbyn needs to put out at a statement apologising for his past relationships with holocaust denier Paul Eisen and convicted racist Raed Salah. Second, Labour needs to back the government’s ban on a public sector boycott of Israeli goods. And finally, Labour needs to expel any member who self-identifies as an “Anti-Zionist”, just as they would any member who decided to self identify as an “Anti-Arab” or “Anti-Black” or “Anti-Muslim” or “Anti-Migrant”. Obviously these moves alone would not rid Labour of its racism. They would essentially be political statements. But statements matter. And they would send a clear signal that bigotry – in all its forms – will not be tolerated. Of course the Labour leadership won’t even contemplate any of these things. Which means every Labour MP and Labour activist and Labour member has to answer this question: you are a member of a racist party now. So what are you going to do about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 Yeah because what's happening at Oxford university at any juncture is representative of the rest of a party's members? I have to say Matt, I used to think your posts in politics were balanced but the attitudes and stuff you've been recycling this year in the politics related threads don't separate you from the situation when you came on these boards complaining about the views and comments of Daggers et al. Now it's it's just your own one man campaign to take any opportunity to represent your agenda. It's a bit bizarre tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 Just another case of a group of nasty people hiding behind their politics to veil their bigoted views to me. The article seems to report the bottom of the party ladder with the Oxford case, fair enough it's awful. Then goes on to mention the peak of the party by saying Jeremy Corbyn talked to Hamas, who are obviosly going to be the biggest anti-semites going, to sensationalise the story to saying the whole party is racist conveniently leaving out the middle of the party who Hodges hasn't mentioned. If he found evidence of institutionalised racism within the town and city Labour candidates, councilors, core party administration and PLP then maybe he'd have a point but he's conveniantly filled the gap for himself, in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 Yeah because what's happening at Oxford university at any juncture is representative of the rest of a party's members? I have to say Matt, I used to think your posts in politics were balanced but the attitudes and stuff you've been recycling this year in the politics related threads don't separate you from the situation when you came on these boards complaining about the views and comments of Daggers et al. Now it's it's just your own one man campaign to take any opportunity to represent your agenda. It's a bit bizarre tbh. It's a topical story which is what this sub-forum is for, given the leadership Labour has now turned towards which has shared some platforms with some extremely dodgy types who have supported all sorts of anti-Jewish/Israeli causes I think it's something that probably should be talked about, it was news when UKIP had accusations that some of it's members had problems with Muslims so why shouldn't it be even bigger news when things like this are happening in the opposition party. It isn't just Oxford either, if you have a glance at many of the recent arrivals on Twitter who claim to be "Corbynista's" you don't have to dig very far through the profiles to start seeing some opinons that are very close to the bone regarding the Jewish population. This is an article written by a ex-Labour member, not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 It's a topical story which is what this sub-forum is for, given the leadership Labour has now turned towards which has shared some platforms with some extremely dodgy types who have supported all sorts of anti-Jewish/Israeli causes I think it's something that probably should be talked about, it was news when UKIP had accusations that some of it's members had problems with Muslims so why shouldn't it be even bigger news when things like this are happening in the opposition party. It isn't just Oxford either, if you have a glance at many of the recent arrivals on Twitter who claim to be "Corbynista's" you don't have to dig very far through the profiles to start seeing some opinons that are very close to the bone regarding the Jewish population. This is an article written by a ex-Labour member, not me. It doesn't matter who wrote it buddy, I just think your much smarter than to re-peddle such propaganda and get hooked into the activities of minority groups who use wider politics as a vehicle to peddle their hate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 It doesn't matter who wrote it buddy, I just think your much smarter than to re-peddle such propaganda and get hooked into the activities of minority groups who use wider politics as a vehicle to peddle their hate. Have I really done that here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 The Telegraph? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 It is alarming that even a university club of her majesty's opposition has such views. It is alarming that Anti-Semitism is on the rise in Europe, and it upsets me a lot that long time Jewish friends are increasingly uncomfortable living in Europe. Dislike of Israel's policies is not an excuse for racism. I personally thinks settlement of Arab areas is nuts and indefensible, but I also think Hamas attacking indiscriminately is appalling. Perfectly topical and reasonable to post. The fact that those on the left doesn't like it doesn't mean it isn't reasonable to post and discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 It is alarming that even a university club of her majesty's opposition has such views. It is alarming that Anti-Semitism is on the rise in Europe, and it upsets me a lot that long time Jewish friends are increasingly uncomfortable living in Europe. Dislike of Israel's policies is not an excuse for racism. I personally thinks settlement of Arab areas is nuts and indefensible, but I also think Hamas attacking indiscriminately is appalling. Perfectly topical and reasonable to post. The fact that those on the left doesn't like it doesn't mean it isn't reasonable to post and discuss. Thanks, I was very surprised by Swan Lesta's response if I'm being honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 It doesn't matter who wrote it buddy, I just think your much smarter than to re-peddle such propaganda and get hooked into the activities of minority groups who use wider politics as a vehicle to peddle their hate. The Oxford university Labour club is a minority group? I'm sure if overt racism was coming from the an equivalent Conservative group you would let that pass? Jesus the shit people get for being part of the Bullingdon club, but this is ok? Thanks, I was very surprised by Swan Lesta's response if I'm being honest. Also in a major national newspaper, like it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 The Oxford university Labour club is a minority group? I'm sure if overt racism was coming from the an equivalent Conservative group you would let that pass? Jesus the shit people get for being part of the Bullingdon club, but this is ok? Also in a major national newspaper, like it or not. So I type 'Tory Racism' into google and these are the hits: Conservative party is still racist, says a former adviser Derek Laud ... www.independent.co.uk/.../conservative-party-is-still-racist-says-a-former- adviser-derek-laud-9985757.html 17 Jan 2015 ... A former Conservative party adviser and friend of David Cameron has launched a remarkable attack on the Conservative leader over his failure to defeat what he regards as the party’s racist attitude to immigration. Jamaica-born Derek Laud accuses the party of using “dog-whistle ... Racism row hits Tory leadership battle | Daily Mail Online www.dailymail.co.uk/news/.../Racism-row-hits-Tory-leadership-battle.html The Conservative Party leadership contest was today embroiled in a row over racism after black Tory peer Lord Taylor of Warwick claimed minority groups could ... Top Tory Apologises Over 'Racist' Riot Remarks - Sky News news.sky.com/story/.../top-tory-apologises-over-racist-riot-remarks 30 Dec 2015 ... Top Tory Apologises Over 'Racist' Riot Remarks. Oliver Letwin is criticised for a 1985 memo where he blamed "bad moral attitudes" for race ... The Conservative party are 'essentially racist' according to former ... www.express.co.uk/.../Conservative-Party-Derek-Laud-David-Cameron- racism 18 Jan 2015 ... A FORMER aide to Margaret Thatcher and John Major has branded theConservative party. Proof that Cameron's Tories are as racist and sexist as ever - Mirror ... www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk.../proof-camerons-tories-racist-sexist-191792 2 Jan 2010 ... Tory promises they have changed have been exposed as a sham. Shock as people actually shocked by Tory minister's racism newsthump.com/.../shock-as-people-actually-shocked-by-tory-ministers- racism/ 30 Dec 2015 ... There was widespread shock this morning at people being shocked by therevelation that a Tory minister held racist attitudes. The Tories' Austerity Programme Is Officially Racist | VICE | United ... https://www.vice.com/en_uk/.../is-the-budget-officially-racist-832 29 Jul 2015 ... If you hold the budget to the standards of the government's own equalitylegislation, it looks like discrimination. Craig Murray » Blog Archive » Racism Works In the Tories https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/.../2015/.../racism-works-in-the-tories/ 6 Oct 2015 ... In every Tory leadership election since Thatcher, the bookies' ... to stir upracism against immigrants by saying they are making us poor and ... Britain's most racist election: the story of Smethwick, 50 years on ... www.theguardian.com/.../britains-most-racist-election-smethwick-50-years- on 15 Oct 2014 ... This racist campaign shocked Britain. In the Commons, the new Labour primeminister Harold Wilson called on then Tory leader Sir Alec ... Conservative Party Still Seen As 'Racist' By Minorities, Warns Asian ... www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/.../conservative-party-ethnic-minorities_n_ 4801441.html 17 Feb 2014 ... The Conservative Party is still viewed as a "racist party" by a large number ethnic minority voters, one of the party's Asian parliamentary ... But I'm not starting threads on the premise that such articles may have any integrity whatsoever, no matter what their origin and certainly not insinuating that the narratives represent the views of many. I'm simply bored of reading pasted inflammatory crap passed off as a topical truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnaldo Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 So the type of people who call you a fascist for opening a door for a woman or wearing a sombrero... are acting like fascists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 I wonder why the Jewish community are throughout history always victims of racism, what are they doing that isolates themselves from others so much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 I wonder why the Jewish community are throughout history always victims of racism, what are they doing that isolates themselves from others so much? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 Thanks, I was very surprised by Swan Lesta's response if I'm being honest. The topic is fine for discussion but that article is a load of bollocks, the implication is that all of the left are anti-Semitic anti-Zionist and that it is an acceptable part of being on the left or in the Labour party. It isn't, it really, really isn't and a couple of high profile incidents doesn't mean that it is endemic, in the same we the Conservative party isn't wholly elitist and full of paedos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 The topic is fine for discussion but that article is a load of bollocks, the implication is that all of the left are anti-Semitic anti-Zionist and that it is an acceptable part of being on the left or in the Labour party. It isn't, it really, really isn't and a couple of high profile incidents doesn't mean that it is endemic, in the same we the Conservative party isn't wholly elitist and full of paedos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnaldo Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 It doesn't matter who wrote it buddy, I just think your much smarter than to re-peddle such propaganda and get hooked into the activities of minority groups who use wider politics as a vehicle to peddle their hate. Harsh to label it 'propaganda' when it's written by a former Labour Party member, doesn't get more balanced does it? The topic is fine for discussion but that article is a load of bollocks, the implication is that all of the left are anti-Semitic anti-Zionist and that it is an acceptable part of being on the left or in the Labour party. It isn't, it really, really isn't and a couple of high profile incidents doesn't mean that it is endemic, in the same we the Conservative party isn't wholly elitist and full of paedos. To be fair it's a mindset towards Israel and Jews and I've seen become more prevalent. One group of pretty hardcore Labour supporters from College I knew said something very similar, and I'm pretty one of them was from a pretty affluent family with Jewish heritage. If there's one thing I feel Corbyn's failed to control in the party it's to try and reason with the extreme Left he's brought in with him, and that could be very costly when it comes to scaring off more moderate Labour voters if they let this slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charl91 Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 Is-The-Conservatives-Problem-With-Having-Sex-With-Dead-Pigs-Beyond-Repair? Discussing the article itself is fine, but I agree with others; it's a very click-bait worthy title, which seems to exaggerate the issue somewhat (if I read it correctly, it's a few people at Oxford University, not the Labour Party as a whole). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stadt Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 It does exaggerate the situation a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnaldo Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 Is-The-Conservatives-Problem-With-Having-Sex-With-Dead-Pigs-Beyond-Repair? Discussing the article itself is fine, but I agree with others; it's a very click-bait worthy title, which seems to exaggerate the issue somewhat (if I read it correctly, it's a few people at Oxford University, not the Labour Party as a whole). It does exaggerate the situation a bit I'd agree with this to be honest, but it's definitely visible amongst students which is slightly worrying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 The topic is fine for discussion but that article is a load of bollocks, the implication is that all of the left are anti-Semitic anti-Zionist and that it is an acceptable part of being on the left or in the Labour party. It isn't, it really, really isn't and a couple of high profile incidents doesn't mean that it is endemic, in the same we the Conservative party isn't wholly elitist and full of paedos. The article is the opinion of an ex 20 year Labour party member who was quite highly thought of within the party and has more left wing political contacts than any of us on this board have. Whether you like it or not a lot of people on the left do now see anti-semitism as acceptable and have done for a quite a while, it's just now starting to rear it's ugly head. Labour have elected a leader that has stood on platforms with all sorts of people who support some pretty terrible opinions regarding Israel and Jewish people, these questions aren't going to go away by turning the other cheek, the party will have to deal with them. Going by recent events I imagine they'll try to deal with this by appointing George Galloway to chair a review on it. As for the last comment, Labour appears to have far more of a problem with those issues as well these days than the Tories.( https://labour25.com/- http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/20/labours-new-members-mostly-wealthy-city-dwellers-leaked-report ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 Is-The-Conservatives-Problem-With-Having-Sex-With-Dead-Pigs-Beyond-Repair? Discussing the article itself is fine, but I agree with others; it's a very click-bait worthy title, which seems to exaggerate the issue somewhat (if I read it correctly, it's a few people at Oxford University, not the Labour Party as a whole). I thought you told us never to believe anything you read in The Daily Mail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 As for the last comment, Labour appears to have far more of a problem with those issues as well these days than the Tories.( https://labour25.com/- http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/20/labours-new-members-mostly-wealthy-city-dwellers-leaked-report ) So in support of your argument suggesting that you have some kind of grasp on source selection and a are not just a sheep following any rhetoric that suits a slanderous interest, you produce a website solely dedicated to members of the labour party accused of sexually related offending. 'Blinkered' doesn't cover it. It's just shameless peddling of your hatred for Labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charl91 Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 The article is the opinion of an ex 20 year Labour party member who was quite highly thought of within the party and has more left wing political contacts than any of us on this board have. Whether you like it or not a lot of people on the left do now see anti-semitism as acceptable and have done for a quite a while, it's just now starting to rear it's ugly head. Oh come off it, how can you even say that with a straight face? Such sweeping statements are ludicrous. Whether you like it or not, a lot of people on the right are racist. Whether you like it or not, a lot of people on the right are murderers and rapists. Whether you like it or not, a lot of people on the right have sex with under-age children. The statements above are just as true as the ones that you made. When you're talking about a large body of people, some of these things will undoubably be applicable to most groups (especially as 'a lot' is an unquantifiable number). That doesn't mean it's a popular opinion or endemic within the party. Saying "whether you like it or not" before hand doesn't make it anymore true either. I thought you told us never to believe anything you read in The Daily Mail? I don't think I've ever actually said that (though for what it's worth, I take whatever they write with a mountain of salt, but I extend that cynicism to most newspapers). I also don't actually believe in the whole pig-gate incident either (or if it happened, it's drastically overblown; student engaged in boisterous shenanigans, big deal). I think, however, you missed the point somewhat; the headline itself is irrelevant, I was just showing how absolutely ridiculous it is to pin an isolated incident on a party as a whole. It could easily be replaced with paedophilia or any other number of slanders. Click bait, pure and simple. You're trying far too hard to find sticks to beat the Labour Party with, and it's coming off as quite desperate. You're becoming the right-wing Rincewind (sorry Ken). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 18 February 2016 Share Posted 18 February 2016 So in support of your argument suggesting that you have some kind of grasp on source selection and a are not just a sheep following any rhetoric that suits a slanderous interest, you produce a website solely dedicated to members of the labour party accused of sexually related offending. 'Blinkered' doesn't cover it. It's just shameless peddling of your hatred for Labour. Just a response to the statement from the Captain regarding his last sentence that just seemed a little out of touch in 2016. Don't worry, when the EU referendum comes around you'll be seeing more than enough abuse directed towards Cameron and the Tories from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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