Defensive Shambles

[volpeazzurro]

8 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Danny Simpson has come out on Sky saying that we are having difficulty adapting to the new grappling rules. 

 

Fair it enough but what about the other defensive frailties we've seen this year. Players ghosting unmarked into the box. Strikers running clean through without being tracked? 

 

I dont think that comment helps as our defence is useless in a number of areas not just at corners. We need to recognise that and address it. Last year we were pretty poor but our distribution to the key attacking players was better, even that has gone to pot.  I don't want to be a broken record but the grey hairs  on my head make me remember a bad time when a manager changed a good thing to stamp his own authority on a team and it went down the toilet.

Agreed and also the new rules apply to all teams and not just us. So in theory, if we are more vulnerable so are other teams thereby again in theory, if the rules are adhered to consistently by referees we also should score more through Huth and Morgan. Personally I favour Ranieri ' s in that it was a lack of concentration ie crap defending. How many other teams this weekend 'struggled' as much with the new rules? 

My own feelings are that defending starts from the front also and the pressuring of last season has disappeared somewhat and developed into a slower 'we're champions we can pass it around a bit more at a slower pace' attitude.

I watched an unimpressive Musa against Chelsea and whilst head height balls to him were not the answer, he wasn't exactly busting a gut to run the channels and make himself available, unfit or just lazy? Vardy entered the fray and his first contribution was to chase down their goalie and force a corner.

Most of them have not got the raw talent of the players of some other teams and for their game to work they need to work harder and concentrate more.

[surrifox]

The bold tactic of leaving 3 upfield when defending corners has been worked around too - time for CR to delve into his box of tricks 

[volpeazzurro]

7 minutes ago, surrifox said:

The bold tactic of leaving 3 upfield when defending corners has been worked around too - time for CR to delve into his box of tricks 

Agreed and you also have to have the ability to initially defend the ball and get it out to them for the plan to work! People can't use the Kante excuse for corners as he was a midget. A taller man like Armartey who has had the benefit of playing at centre half should be more of an advantage here but he looks like a lost puppy at times.

By all accounts Ranieri is not the calm gentle man off camera he is on. In fact I bet he was fuming with our defensive display and they'll all get some today! I know it's a stereotype but Italian's do in the main see defending as paramount and an art form haha.

[Babylon]

39 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

I actually think your analysis of the reasons why makes lots of sense. I get it.

What is clear is that something has gone astray. A defense (or shape) that last season conceded so few has this pre season and season conceded four goals to better sides in five games (I think)....... is a dramatic change. 

Needs sorting.

I think it's a mix of what you are stating and I do believe Amartey is very poor at this level (so far). 

Your posts are so much better when they aim to explain.

If you look below I've added the average position maps of Liverpool away last year, to Liverpool away this year. We lost both games but only got destroyed in one.

 

Look how much narrower and deeper the defenders are. Huth is playing almost as a midfielder in the 4-1, with so much space between centre backs and full backs it makes it easier for people to play the ball through the defence. The Difference in positioning of Mahrez, no longer giving cover in the space between CM and RB. Fuchs was so wide that it meant Albrighton had to fill the gap between CB and FULL back. And the strikers are much further forward meaning the CM's are more isolated.

 

I thought it was good play by Liverpool as they pushed their full backs right up and that dragged us wide. You think back to the first goal, it was Milner playing left back who was right up the pitch, pulled over Simpson, Morgan moved across to fill the space and a hole appeared. Defences are sitting deeper, which not only stops the counters, but also means the our strikers move futher up the pitch to play "on the shoulder" leaving more holes in CM and us having to pass it much further to reach them.

[ozvaldo]

You'd hope that after conceding 12 against the big teams (Liverpool, Chelsea and Man Utd), Claudio will now do something about it.

 

Personally I'd like to see something similar to this:

3-4-1-2 / 3-4-3

Zieler

Huth Wes Fuchs
Simpson Amartey Drinky Gray
Shinji
Slimani Vardy

 

I think Drinky needs someone in there do "do the Kante role" alongside him.  
Amartey is good at a lot of things but not a master of anything.  Kingy is dogshit.  Mendy is still out.
I'd get Shinji in there and make him press that midfield/forward area to help take the pressure off Amartey and free up Drinky.
Right now, I can't think of anyone better than Shinji to do that role.

 

[dpjfox]

Although Zeiler has seemed to be adequate for Kaspers deputy, there may be a slight shortfull in communicatio with the back 4, that said ,it was individuals fault on Saturday for switching off/losing concentration at corners (them mistakes can be rectified)

[Aidan]

On 9/25/2016 at 01:34, Mickyblueeyes said:

I'm sorry but I think you're missing the point. By winning the league as football fans we are now barred from questioning the manager, his tactics and quite evident flaws for his entire time here? 

 

Success breeds expectations. Nigel was not above criticism after he got us promoted and we sat bottom of the league. Which was right. In the same way nor is Ranieri. Fans are very quick to jump on fellow fans who question the manager as Pearson supporters, as deluded, as ungrateful or some other reason without actually engaging in a debate as to what our bloody stark obvious problem is! 

 

These signs were evident from pre-season. We were ripped apart by Barca and Psg in the same manner. When questioned. Oh, it's barca and psg what do you expect. Ok, fair point. We were incredibly short against Hull and concealed two goals (one from a corner and one from Snodgrass ghosting into the box unmarked) and the reason was we were unfit. Ok, fair enough. We have now been ripped apart by Liverpool, Chelsea (albeit with different players on the pitch) and Man U. Playing go the same system and philosophy. There has been no change and what we had in abundance last year and for a few months the season before that is so far gone we look a pretty different side. Who do you question for that? The kit man? Frank who sits in row DD? The tea lady? No you question the manager as to why we are not adapting to our flaws and giving a better account of ourselves. 

 

Our collapses are on par with the Bolton 5-0 under Taylor all those years ago. Don't get me wrong I respect Ranieri and what he hs done but he seems (evidence on what is being seen from the outside and our continued under-prepared approach to these sort of games) that he is also lacking the tactical know how this year. This is not blasphemy and unlike the earlier poster a call for a return to Pearson (very original and calculated response). It's a genuine question as to whether Claudio sees what is happening and why there is no fix. We seem in-prepared for this season and have not adapted to key loss in the team. There seems some expensive bystanders who are not competing for places and again, I will question the manager. We can't shake up the defence because our £7 million pound player is deemed not good enough! We have replaced Kante with a player who doesn't have the maturity (yet!) to play that role but continue to play the same formation/system as last year - surely these are all questions for the manager? 

 

I'm not saying we should be challenging for the title. I'm saying I want to see my team compete. Had we lost that game 2-0 but had a couple of chances and actually made United break sweat you right it off and go on. We are not and that's why until I see something different the manager is to be questioned. 

 

So no, I don't forget what he did last year. I certainly am not callings for his head. But it's as clear as day his management (albeit tactically or with the aide of his coaching staff) is lacking at present.

 

 

 

 

Well said! Thank you.

[HighPeakFox]

Good to read some balanced and thought out criticisms here.

[Tuna]

We seem to be getting worse and not learning.

[GaelicFox]

Claudio is drowning he just can't make it click and he seems oblivious to the fact we are over run playing 4-4-2 away from home 

 

we are in HUGE trouble now ! Massive massive trouble 

[Dr The Singh]

3 hours ago, GaelicFox said:

Claudio is drowning he just can't make it click and he seems oblivious to the fact we are over run playing 4-4-2 away from home 

 

we are in HUGE trouble now ! Massive massive trouble 

Claudio, can't do much about individual errors though.  Morgan is playing like he was at the beginning of the season under Pearson.  The unit is shoddy, overall we are making mistakes we did not make last season.  I hate to say this, I think Morgan's finished.  Hernandez doesn't give me confidence either.  This is going to be a long season

[dbtcity]

5 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

Claudio, can't do much about individual errors though.  Morgan is playing like he was at the beginning of the season under Pearson.  The unit is shoddy, overall we are making mistakes we did not make last season.  I hate to say this, I think Morgan's finished.  Hernandez doesn't give me confidence either.  This is going to be a long season

Same can be said for huth, I personally think he's gave everyone the chance to prove they're good enough to defend the title.... I expect we'll see a few come in January as it's clear quite a few are struggling, Morgan and huth are a year older and another couple of yards slower, the whole clamp down on grappling has clear had a big effect on the pair of them

[Fox92]

I don't understand what we do in training. Do they just turn up for a laugh? I've seen conference sides defend corners better.

[GaelicFox]

30 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

Claudio, can't do much about individual errors though.  Morgan is playing like he was at the beginning of the season under Pearson.  The unit is shoddy, overall we are making mistakes we did not make last season.  I hate to say this, I think Morgan's finished.  Hernandez doesn't give me confidence either.  This is going to be a long season

Fair shout and ya Wes looks cooked at the moment 

[SpinneyHillRanger]

Team selection was the biggest problem

 

I can accept ranieri wants to play 442. Without kante I don't think we can play effectively but I trust ranieri.

 

Where he failed today was with team selection. How can he play musa and vardy? Vardy/musa should be partnered by ulloa/okazaki/slimani type.

 

Schlupp was useless and should only ever be used as an impact sub or where his positional play or tracking back will not be significant.

 

Amartey is poor but don't really have many alternatives. 

 

Hernandez should play CL only, let Simpson play in the PL.

 

Albrighton is good for crossing on the right, but then we didn't have slim, or ulloa feeding on crosses.

 

At the moment I think we are making mistakes we weren't making last season. Huth and Morgan are the same it's just that a few factors have come in which meant they are being tested much more. One being the rule changes regarding grappling on corners and two, kante missing in our midfield means many attacks stopped by his tackling and interceptions - meaning now huth and Morgan are being tested much more as teams are allowed to get to them as amartey/drinky can't do what kante was doing.

 

 

[Col city fan]

One more time....Wes left Costa which was clearly wrong.

But the ball should never have gotten across the box in the first place. Wes I think wasn't expecting it just to flick through the 6 yard area like it did. Like at Man Utd, Amartey was marking the first man, didn't get there and I think it was Pedro? simply flicked the corner over and we were exposed.

Its no coincidence that a defense that was so rock solid last season has gone back to being as shaky as it ever was under Pearson. Away from home, the midfield is carved open like a knife through butter. Again, watch the footage back and then compare it to goal number 3? against Man Utd.

[Matt]

Don't understand how last season they were so good to so bad this season.

 

I was going to suggest perhaps Morgan, Huth and arguably Fuchs' age has caught up with them but it isn't down to lack of pace/not getting back, they're simply just a shambles, lower league standards of defending, Hernadez, barr his throw is pretty poor (Had an ok game v Porto), can't say I have too much of a problem with Simpson.

[Koke]

Last season we conceded 18 goals in 19 away games. 

 

This season we've already conceded 13 in just 4 away games.

 

Last season away to United, Liverpool and Chelsea we conceded just 3 goals. This season we've shipped in 11.

[Col city fan]

7 minutes ago, Koke said:

Last season we conceded 18 goals in 19 away games. 

 

This season we've already conceded 13 in just 4 away games.

 

Last season away to United, Liverpool and Chelsea we conceded just 3 goals. This season we've shipped in 11.

With the SAME back five, Hernandes/Simmo

 

Theres summat else going on....

[Dr The Singh]

2 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

With the SAME back five, Hernandes/Simmo

 

Theres summat else going on....

.....the lizard people?

[lgfualol]

Did Morgan play any international games? 

 

Calamity Morgan is making a return and it is bad. Not sure how it would feel seeing your captain be the weak link in some games.

 

I think someone has actually hit each of our defenders in the head with a baseball bat. It's the only explanation for them suddenly going from the best to league 2.

[Col city fan]

27 minutes ago, lgfualol said:

Did Morgan play any international games? 

 

Calamity Morgan is making a return and it is bad. Not sure how it would feel seeing your captain be the weak link in some games.

 

I think someone has actually hit each of our defenders in the head with a baseball bat. It's the only explanation for them suddenly going from the best to league 2.

No it isn't. It's exactly like I predicted after week 2. Like under Pearson, the defense and especially Wes are being scapegoated. Like under Pearson, the problem is far bigger than a defense which, only last season, was rock solid. 

Can people not see further than the back 5? I guess not.

[MurphyMagic]

Get rid of Hernandez, he is garbage. 

[Sindidragon]

Yeah but we played Inler but now he's gone

[CloudFox]

On 26/09/2016 at 09:13, Babylon said:

If you look below I've added the average position maps of Liverpool away last year, to Liverpool away this year. We lost both games but only got destroyed in one.

 

Look how much narrower and deeper the defenders are. Huth is playing almost as a midfielder in the 4-1, with so much space between centre backs and full backs it makes it easier for people to play the ball through the defence. The Difference in positioning of Mahrez, no longer giving cover in the space between CM and RB. Fuchs was so wide that it meant Albrighton had to fill the gap between CB and FULL back. And the strikers are much further forward meaning the CM's are more isolated.

 

I thought it was good play by Liverpool as they pushed their full backs right up and that dragged us wide. You think back to the first goal, it was Milner playing left back who was right up the pitch, pulled over Simpson, Morgan moved across to fill the space and a hole appeared. Defences are sitting deeper, which not only stops the counters, but also means the our strikers move futher up the pitch to play "on the shoulder" leaving more holes in CM and us having to pass it much further to reach them.

I think this hits the nail on the head, and would be curious to see this and last season's Chelsea away games compared too.

 

There's way too much space for attackers to run in behind our defence this season, and I don't understand why that's changed. Last year we defended solidly, and I never worried too much about opposition counter-attacks. Yesterday even Kante tore us open on the counter. We're not sitting deep enough, with that solid narrow back four.

 

They're getting picked off one by one, pulled out of position, and no matter how much Amartey and Drinkwater win second balls, they can't shield them enough.

 

3 things need to happen:

 

1) Defence needs to play deeper, and in numbers

2) Back four need to be narrower. Show the opposition to the outside, and minimise gaps between full backs and centre backs 

3) We have to play 3 in the middle away from home to the big teams. Either that, or Okazaki in the hole in a 4-4-1-1