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DangerFox

Set pieces.....what's the issue?

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One other thing that winds me up but I'm not going to start a new thread again is the way we have in the past started games at full throttle and torn teams apart, scored a goal and then get to half time and we seem to revert to being ultra defensive.

Now I understand tactics etc. and get what he's trying to do. He's trying to soak up pressure and break with pace and hit them on the counter.

I have a couple of issues with this:

1. We do this at home and we end up looking like the away side

2. We do break quick enough and the other team get back quicker than us (we need to use vids of Arsenal years gone by for this tactic, not this years though, lol)

3. We've struggled with it since Dyer has been injured and can't get back in. Both mahrez and knockeart or skilful but not as quick and so the tactic doesn't work.

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Either they're completely scared of heading the ball in from corners or free-kicks (see Chris Wood), ...

 

... or we're simply not training those standard situations often or good enough.

 

(Or maybe we'd need a couple of taller players, apart from Wood, Marcin and Richie de Laet are our tallest at 6ft 1in)

 

Then again, we've scored aplenty from open play without really having to rely on set pieces.

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We occasionally do the front post run and flick across goal. I remember Kingy scoring one against Blackburn last season ( that long ago, yes  lol ). But we just do the same thing every time. It's effectively a cross-it-and-hope approach. We have very little hope from that due to our lack of height and lack of players who are good at attacking the ball with their head.

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I'm going to put it out there and say that Wes isn't very good at commanding the box.

 

 

He's someone the younger players look up to and I think he's a 'leader', but he's not very good at taking control.

 

 

He always comes across as quite sheepish in interviews and, although this is obviously speculation, I think that that personality trait carries onto the pitch. I don't think he has the psychological edge over attackers to think "right, get the **** out of the way, this ball is mine and i'm putting it there". I think this is also why he rarely scores. 

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I think if you watch our routines at the minute a lot of them revolve around Wasyl. Keep an eye on it tonight, it'll come off eventually.

Just like when he was in the side, they revolved around Moore e,g vs Wigan at home where he peels off to the back post to score.

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Forget attacking set pieces id just like us to defend them properly, the defending lately from corners etc is woeful, laughable at times in fact.

We'll get torn apart next season unless this is addressed.

This. I can live without making the most from attacking set pieces. We will get fewer next season anyway due to moving from one of the most successful teams to a bottom half team. Our chances will be fewer and far between next season.

But defensively we will get killed on set pieces if were not careful. You look at the top club's centre halfs in the premiership. You have the likes of Mertesacker, Skrtel, Kompany, Vidic, Vertonghen and Cahill who all carry a goal scoring threat from set pieces. None of our defenders currently look equipped to deal with such a threat. Wigan nailed us on set pieces, as did Brighton with high balls into the box. There 1st, 2nd and 4th goal all came from such play. It really does need sorting and is kind of our Achilles heel as this year our defensive play has been a lot better.

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We used to be a club that thrived on defending and attacking in set pieces. Times have changed and new managers bring new tactics etc.

That said, Pearson was a solid centre back, so why are we struggling to defend against set pieces. It can all be blamed on Kasper, Wes and A.Nother.........can it? Surely Pearson should be able to sort this out?

And as for attacking any set pieces, just watch the game tonight against Reading, we never seem to be able produce anything at the back end if this season from corners or floated in free kicks.

It's certainly an area where if we don't work on it, we'll get hurt by next year!

Where's the evidence for any of this? We have scored a couple from set pieces in recent games. Hammond at Wigan and Knocky against Sheff Weds. You need some STATS to back this up else this is a pointless debate.

Perhaps it's just that we score so many goals from open play, that the proportion of set piece goals seems lower than average?

Few teams score many goals from set pieces. And hardly anyone scores goals from corners.

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Couldn't find any stats for the championship, but whoscored.com provides stats for the Prem.

Most Prem teams have only scored about 10 to 12 goals from set pieces this season. I can't imagine our total number is fewer than that.

Incidentally, Sunderland have scored as many set piece goals (9) as both Spurs and Man United this season.

So nothing to worry about.

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Couldn't find any stats for the championship, but whoscored.com provides stats for the Prem.

Most Prem teams have only scored about 10 to 12 goals from set pieces this season. I can't imagine our total number is fewer than that.

Incidentally, Sunderland have scored as many set piece goals (9) as both Spurs and Man United this season.

So nothing to worry about.

I'm fairly sure our total number is fewer than that. 

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Defending: Kasper isn't the tallest of keepers and as a result is too hesitant to come off his line to claim/punch crosses. We concede a number of goals a season that from crosses that Kasper could have come out and dealt with (not saying he's a bad keeper, he makes up for it in other areas). We also don't have any great 'leapers' in our back 4, which is why we get dominated in the air at times.

 

Attacking: Again, not any players that consistently tower above the opposition. It baffles me why we don't have Wes and Was running in from the edge of the area. Currently if they do manage to win the header, there is never enough power generated from a standing position.

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I'm going to put it out there and say that Wes isn't very good at commanding the box.

He's someone the younger players look up to and I think he's a 'leader', but he's not very good at taking control.

He always comes across as quite sheepish in interviews and, although this is obviously speculation, I think that that personality trait carries onto the pitch. I don't think he has the psychological edge over attackers to think "right, get the **** out of the way, this ball is mine and i'm putting it there". I think this is also why he rarely scores.

I completely agree!

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Where's the evidence for any of this? We have scored a couple from set pieces in recent games. Hammond at Wigan and Knocky against Sheff Weds. You need some STATS to back this up else this is a pointless debate.

Perhaps it's just that we score so many goals from open play, that the proportion of set piece goals seems lower than average?

Few teams score many goals from set pieces. And hardly anyone scores goals from corners.

Fair point, I am no stato but the topic has become hot for a reason and that reason is because everybody agrees apart from you.

Watch tonight, we look shakey when facing set pieces and attacking wise we always seem to fall short.

The topic has been opened not because I or anybody wants to argue but because for the last 10-15 games it's become more apparent we struggle with it. Whether that's because the opposition has worked us out again?! I don't know.

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Where's the evidence for any of this? We have scored a couple from set pieces in recent games. Hammond at Wigan and Knocky against Sheff Weds. You need some STATS to back this up else this is a pointless debate.

Perhaps it's just that we score so many goals from open play, that the proportion of set piece goals seems lower than average?

Few teams score many goals from set pieces. And hardly anyone scores goals from corners.

Not scoring isn't so much the problem it's more that we are not even at all threatening from set pieces, when was the last time we scored from a corner?
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From "the back-room team" article in the Yeovil match programme:

Mike Stowell: "...Nigel has also entrusted me with the attacking set plays, as well as the unit work with the back four this season"....."Shakey does the defending set plays,..."

I don't know much about Mike Stowell's coaching ability, but reading that did explain a lot. How can someone who has played in goal his whole career, and then become a goalkeeping coach, have a good enough perspective on how to devise attacking set plays?

I'm all for Nigel giving his staff the opportunity to expand their skill sets, but this is surely a step too far. Our attacking set plays have been toothless all year and NP needs to take more control here or bring in some specialist coaches for the PL next year.

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Fair point, I am no stato but the topic has become hot for a reason and that reason is because everybody agrees apart from you.

Watch tonight, we look shakey when facing set pieces and attacking wise we always seem to fall short.

The topic has been opened not because I or anybody wants to argue but because for the last 10-15 games it's become more apparent we struggle with it. Whether that's because the opposition has worked us out again?! I don't know.

Everyone agrees with what? (Apart from me). If your opinion isn't based on a statistic then its a meaningless opinion. 100% true fact! :)

We are set up as a footballing team, with skilful players. Set piece teams are set up as lanky brutes who are just good at heading the ball.

Which strategy would u prefer?

The real headline here is that we score more goals from open play than anyone else, not that we score fewer set pieces. This strategy has seen us score more goals this year than any other team. So why have a moan because the type of goal isn't to your liking.

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R Team Open Play Counter Attack Set Piece Penalty Own Goal

1 Ipswich 30 1 20 2 2

2 Nottingham Forest 36 0 17 4 2

3 Reading 32 5 17 6 2

4 Wigan 30 1 16 4 3

5 Leeds 35 2 15 2 0

6 Doncaster 17 1 15 3 2

7 Blackburn 38 0 14 4 1

8 Bournemouth 32 3 14 9 1

9 Sheffield Wednesday 31 0 14 3 3

10 Derby 53 1 13 6 2

11 Middlesbrough 33 5 13 2 1

12 Brighton 29 2 13 3 2

13 Bolton 40 0 12 1 1

14 Blackpool 18 0 12 3 1

15 Watford 46 2 11 7 0

16 Queens Park Rangers 37 2 11 3 1

17 Yeovil 24 2 11 4 1

18 Birmingham 37 2 10 3 1

19 Huddersfield 36 0 10 3 2

20 Burnley 47 2 9 5 2

21 Millwall 22 2 9 6 2

22 Charlton 19 1 9 1 0

23 Leicester 55 3 7 9 3

24 Barnsley 29 0 4 5 0

Sorry garbled but this is the set piece league table. We're 23rd. Pearson out!

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Everyone agrees with what? (Apart from me). If your opinion isn't based on a statistic then its a meaningless opinion. 100% true fact! :)

We are set up as a footballing team, with skilful players. Set piece teams are set up as lanky brutes who are just good at heading the ball.

Which strategy would u prefer?

The real headline here is that we score more goals from open play than anyone else, not that we score fewer set pieces. This strategy has seen us score more goals this year than any other team. So why have a moan because the type of goal isn't to your liking.

Your obviously for an argument, so I'm only going to respond once and in this manner.

You say it's not factual but opinionated. Well this is the place for us fans to voice our opinions. Nowhere does it state on sign up, you have to have true facts, we're not in a court of law.

I respect your suggestion and that's also your opinion to rely on stats and facts.

And lastly just to say, we are a skilful side which I love. But if you look at the team leading the Prem (where we are heading), Liverpool are skilful, fantastically creative, and are great at attacking and defending set pieces. Eg. Skrtel nailing a glancing header in the back of the net against Man City etc.

To play in the Prem we are going t need to be able to defend and utilise set pieces in order to survive.

That's all!

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Next season we will have less of the ball so set pieces could be crucial, we could score 10 goals from set pieces that could keep us up - neglecting them is daft.

Hasnt done cardiff or fulham much good. It could be than an over reliance on set pieces could get a team relegated.

The key point is that the number of goals you scorefrom set pieces doesnt have a significant bearing on league position. However, scoring goals from open play does.

Prem set piece table

1 Liverpool 48 8 23 10 4

2 Manchester City 53 4 18 6 5

3 Chelsea 41 4 14 5 2

4 Fulham 16 1 13 2 2

5 Cardiff 16 0 13 0 1

6 Everton 34 2 12 2 3

7 Southampton 33 2 12 3 0

8 Hull 18 2 10 2 2

9 Manchester United 41 1 9 4 1

10 Tottenham 27 4 9 4 4

11 West Ham 22 2 9 2 2

12 Sunderland 13 3 9 4 0

13 Swansea 28 0 7 2 8

14 Stoke 26 1 7 3 1

15 Aston Villa 21 4 7 2 1

16 Arsenal 44 3 6 3 0

17 West Bromwich Albion 29 1 6 2 2

18 Newcastle United 26 3 6 2 1

19 Crystal Palace 12 1 6 4 1

20 Norwich 20 1 4 1 0

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Your obviously for an argument, so I'm only going to respond once and in this manner.

You say it's not factual but opinionated. Well this is the place for us fans to voice our opinions. Nowhere does it state on sign up, you have to have true facts, we're not in a court of law.

I respect your suggestion and that's also your opinion to rely on stats and facts.

And lastly just to say, we are a skilful side which I love. But if you look at the team leading the Prem (where we are heading), Liverpool are skilful, fantastically creative, and are great at attacking and defending set pieces. Eg. Skrtel nailing a glancing header in the back of the net against Man City etc.

To play in the Prem we are going t need to be able to defend and utilise set pieces in order to survive.

That's all!

Yes you're right i do prefer to rely on facts. You nailed me there.

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Hasnt done cardiff or fulham much good. It could be than an over reliance on set pieces could get a team relegated.

The key point is that the number of goals you scorefrom set pieces doesnt have a significant bearing on league position. However, scoring goals from open play does.

Prem set piece table

1 Liverpool 48 8 23 10 4

2 Manchester City 53 4 18 6 5

3 Chelsea 41 4 14 5 2

4 Fulham 16 1 13 2 2

5 Cardiff 16 0 13 0 1

6 Everton 34 2 12 2 3

7 Southampton 33 2 12 3 0

8 Hull 18 2 10 2 2

9 Manchester United 41 1 9 4 1

10 Tottenham 27 4 9 4 4

11 West Ham 22 2 9 2 2

12 Sunderland 13 3 9 4 0

13 Swansea 28 0 7 2 8

14 Stoke 26 1 7 3 1

15 Aston Villa 21 4 7 2 1

16 Arsenal 44 3 6 3 0

17 West Bromwich Albion 29 1 6 2 2

18 Newcastle United 26 3 6 2 1

19 Crystal Palace 12 1 6 4 1

20 Norwich 20 1 4 1 0

I'm not suggesting we become reliant on them, but being this toothless from set pieces could cost us.
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