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Matt

Penalties don't count.

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I've just typed all this out in the Nugent thread that seems to have been deleted, well am I fuck not posting it after doing the research, typing it out, only to find I couldn't post it because the thread had been deleted! lol

 

It's all hindsight, it's all if's and but's but it does prove how instrumental the penalties have been this season and on a whole I think a large percentage of them have been genuine, can't say i've seen a debatable decision given for us.

 

Ok, so where would we be if we discount all penalties.

 

Birmingham (H):

Discount penalty: 2-2 (Drawn)

Actual Result: 3-2 (Won)

 

Wigan (H):

Discount Penalty: 1-0 (Won)

Actual Result: 2-0 (Won)

 

Blackburn (H):

Discount Penalty: 1-1 (Drawn)

Actual Result: 2-1 (Won)

 

Blackpool (A):

Discount Penalty: 2-1 (Lost)

Actual Result: 2-2 (Drawn)

*Penalty taken by Paul Konchesky.

 

Barnsley (H):

Discount Penalty: 1-1 (Drawn)

Actual Result: 2-1 (Won)

 

Yeovil (A)

Discount Penalty: 1-1 (Drawn)

Actual Result: 1-2 (Won)

 

Forest (H):

Discount Penalty: 0-2 (Lost)

Actual Result: 0-2 (Lost)

*Missed Penalty.

 

Burnley (H):

Discount Penalty: 0-1 (Lost)

Actual Result: 1-1 (Drawn)

 

Reading (H):

Discount Penalty: 0-0 (Drawn)

Actual Result: 1-0 (Won)

 

Bolton (H):

Discount Penalty: 5-3 (Won)

Actual Result: 5-3 (Won)

*Missed Penalty.

 

Derby (H):

Discount Penalty: 2-1 (Won)

Actual Result: 3-1 (Won)

 

Middlesborough (H):

Discount Penalty: 1-0 (Won)

Actual Result: 2-0 (Win)

 

While we're at it i'll include penalties we've had in the cups:

 

Wycombe (A):

Discount Penalty: 1-1 (Drawn)

Actual Result: 1-2 (Won)

*Bare in mind the draw would have meant extra time and penalties meaning players would have been more tired potential disrupting league form.

 

Carlisle (A):

Discount Penalty: 2-4 (Won)

Actual Result: 2-5 (Won)

*Penalty taken by Chris Wood.

 

Points total based on actual results: 29

Points total based on discounting penalties: 17

 

So thanks to Nugent scoring penalties (And 1 from Konchesky) we have gained an extra 12 points, so we currently have 93 points, lets take those 12 points away because apparently penalties don't count that puts us on 81 points, thats not even taking into account the points the opposition would have gained if we discounted the penalites for example Burnley would be above us for sure as they would have gained 3 points on us if we discounted that penalty.

 

I think i've done all this correctly anyway lol

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Have you bothered to remove all the penalties from the other 23 league sides? If not it makes your research even more of a waste of time.

Penalties only don't count if Nugent takes them. Surely you should know that by now?
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Obviously they count for the team but at an individual level they have masked a poor Goalscoring return for Nuge.

Obviously they count for the team but at an individual level they have masked a poor Goalscoring return for Nuge.

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Penalties don't count is one of the most stupidest arguments I hear.

 

I don't think anyone has ever argued that penalties don't count.

 

I'm sure that they've argued that penalties should be discounted in discussions of how good strikers are at scoring goals, but I really don't believe anyone has said that they don't count seriously.

 

The point is, we should always have someone competent at penalty taking and that really, goals scored through penalties, tell you very little about how good a striker is at scoring goals at a particular level.

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It's not that they don't count.

 

 

It's just silly to use the argument that Nugent is a goalscorer, a finisher, etc.. because he's scored almost half of his goals this season from the spot when really, a penalty is designed to give the taker a serious chance to score. So much so that if they don't score then they are lambasted for it (and rightly so). In fact, i'd go as far to say that Nugent isn't a very good penalty taker, he doesn't find the corner and has missed about a quarter of the ones he's taken. I personally think that Wood is our best taker (despite him missing one next season). Look at his goal during his hattrick in the cup earlier in the season, he drove one right into the corner giving the keeper no hope. Nugent sort of side foots it to one side, if the keeper guesses correctly then they'll save them 9 times out of 10.

 

 

Nugent has other qualities, he's our leading goal maker and his interplay has meant that Vardy has had the season he's had, I'm not in the camp of "he's not good enough" because I realise that he brings no end of good to the team. But he misses so many chances because he's simply not a "goalscorer". He plays his best football when he's got Vardy in front of him. He recieves the ball from midfield, turns and usually finds the right pass. This is why I rate him as one of the best forwards in the division, not because he's scored 19 goals because somebody else could quite easily take penalties. In fact, I think Drinkwater would be 15+ for the season if he took penalties. 

 

 

Nugent is in the same bracket as the likes of Ings, McCormack, Austin, Martin and Rhodes on goals scored. But most of those players have hit their tallies without the need for goals put on a plate for them. A penalty is never saved, they're missed.

 

 

However, fair play for him being one of the senior members of the side and taking responsibility. I know it's a pressure situation so I commend him for that.

 

I just find it ridiculous that people think he's the "go to guy" if we need a goal. Personally I think Vardy has been that player. 16 goals from open play is a magnificent achievement and, for me, he's our "goalscorer", Nugent is our "goal maker".

 

 

Both are extremely valuable to our side and they each need each other's qualities to form the best strike partnership in the division IMO. 

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Penalties only don't count if Nugent takes them. Surely you should know that by now?

I think you'll find it works like this

Cup goals NEVER count

Yakubu goals ONLY COUNT ONCE any second goals aren't counted

Penalties only couldn't for the first 3 then after that they don't

Missed penalties count double

League one goals count as a minus and serve only to prove you aren't up to championship standard

Championship goals now no longer count as they simply prove you're not up to Premier league standard.

Beckford (see Yakubu)

Waghorn goals from 4 years ago count every season.

Waghorn loan goals simultaneously count and don't count.

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Have you bothered to remove all the penalties from the other 23 league sides? If not it makes your research even more of a waste of time.

 

I'm not going to bother going through all teams because well i'm just not but what I will do is tell you we have been awarded the most penalties out of all teams in the league this season with 12, therefore we have also scored the most penalties in the league along with Bournemouth, therefore as a general guess, common sense says we stand lose more points discounting these penalties and everyone else would have gained points on us.

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I think you'll find it works like this

Cup goals NEVER count

Yakubu goals ONLY COUNT ONCE any second goals aren't counted

Penalties only couldn't for the first 3 then after that they don't

Missed penalties count double

League one goals count as a minus and serve only to prove you aren't up to championship standard

Championship goals now no longer count as they simply prove you're not up to Premier league standard.

Beckford (see Yakubu)

Waghorn goals from 4 years ago count every season.

Waghorn loan goals simultaneously count and don't count.

 

Waghorn's assists count as goals.

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The really clever penalty takers discretely unlace the boot on the foot they intend to kick with. The ball goes one way, and the boot the other. This gives the keeper a fifty per cent less chance of saving it. If you're very lucky, the goalkeeper will be stretchered off..  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:

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It's not that they don't count.

 

 

It's just silly to use the argument that Nugent is a goalscorer, a finisher, etc.. because he's scored almost half of his goals this season from the spot when really, a penalty is designed to give the taker a serious chance to score. So much so that if they don't score then they are lambasted for it (and rightly so). In fact, i'd go as far to say that Nugent isn't a very good penalty taker, he doesn't find the corner and has missed about a quarter of the ones he's taken. I personally think that Wood is our best taker (despite him missing one next season). Look at his goal during his hattrick in the cup earlier in the season, he drove one right into the corner giving the keeper no hope. Nugent sort of side foots it to one side, if the keeper guesses correctly then they'll save them 9 times out of 10.

 

 

Nugent has other qualities, he's our leading goal maker and his interplay has meant that Vardy has had the season he's had, I'm not in the camp of "he's not good enough" because I realise that he brings no end of good to the team. But he misses so many chances because he's simply not a "goalscorer". He plays his best football when he's got Vardy in front of him. He recieves the ball from midfield, turns and usually finds the right pass. This is why I rate him as one of the best forwards in the division, not because he's scored 19 goals because somebody else could quite easily take penalties. In fact, I think Drinkwater would be 15+ for the season if he took penalties. 

 

 

Nugent is in the same bracket as the likes of Ings, McCormack, Austin, Martin and Rhodes on goals scored. But most of those players have hit their tallies without the need for goals put on a plate for them. A penalty is never saved, they're missed.

 

 

However, fair play for him being one of the senior members of the side and taking responsibility. I know it's a pressure situation so I commend him for that.

 

I just find it ridiculous that people think he's the "go to guy" if we need a goal. Personally I think Vardy has been that player. 16 goals from open play is a magnificent achievement and, for me, he's our "goalscorer", Nugent is our "goal maker".

 

 

Both are extremely valuable to our side and they each need each other's qualities to form the best strike partnership in the division IMO. 

 

He's missed 2 all season. Pretty good going for a person who takes awful penalties.  :rolleyes:

 

It's not about getting it into the corners, it's about beating the keeper, and nuge is very good at that - the reason they don't go the right way is because he's very good at varying up the placement of the penalties and ensuring the keeper can't second guess him, or do his homework. Nuge has been a very good penalty taker - he's got a success rate of 80%, about level with the conversion rate in the top flight (between 70 & 80%)

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He's missed 2 all season. Pretty good going for a person who takes awful penalties.  :rolleyes:

 

It's not about getting it into the corners, it's about beating the keeper, and nuge is very good at that - the reason they don't go the right way is because he's very good at varying up the placement of the penalties and ensuring the keeper can't second guess him, or do his homework. Nuge has been a very good penalty taker - he's got a success rate of 80%, about level with the conversion rate in the top flight (between 70 & 80%)

 

 

Middlesbrough, Forest and Bolton off the top of my head.

 

I think he's had 12, which means he's missed a quarter. That's shit in my opinion. You really shouldn't miss.

 

Poor goalkeeping meant that he scored against Wigan too. Carson got both hands to it.

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Here we go again;

 

Well done to David Nugent for scoring the penalties (most of them) when the opportunity has presented itself, no doubt those goals have enabled the team to secure more points.

 

On a personal level, when comparing Nugent's goal tally from previous season's, when he didn't take penalties, this season is pretty poor. Penalties are a bonus, you cannot rely upon them.

 

I'm not a Nugent fan, I never will be, I feel that he holds us back - I won't and can't be bothered to go into the details again.

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I don't think anyone has ever argued that penalties don't count.

 

I'm sure that they've argued that penalties should be discounted in discussions of how good strikers are at scoring goals, but I really don't believe anyone has said that they don't count seriously.

 

The point is, we should always have someone competent at penalty taking and that really, goals scored through penalties, tell you very little about how good a striker is at scoring goals at a particular level.

 

 

It's not that they don't count.

 

 

It's just silly to use the argument that Nugent is a goalscorer, a finisher, etc.. because he's scored almost half of his goals this season from the spot when really, a penalty is designed to give the taker a serious chance to score. So much so that if they don't score then they are lambasted for it (and rightly so). In fact, i'd go as far to say that Nugent isn't a very good penalty taker, he doesn't find the corner and has missed about a quarter of the ones he's taken. I personally think that Wood is our best taker (despite him missing one next season). Look at his goal during his hattrick in the cup earlier in the season, he drove one right into the corner giving the keeper no hope. Nugent sort of side foots it to one side, if the keeper guesses correctly then they'll save them 9 times out of 10.

 

 

Nugent has other qualities, he's our leading goal maker and his interplay has meant that Vardy has had the season he's had, I'm not in the camp of "he's not good enough" because I realise that he brings no end of good to the team. But he misses so many chances because he's simply not a "goalscorer". He plays his best football when he's got Vardy in front of him. He recieves the ball from midfield, turns and usually finds the right pass. This is why I rate him as one of the best forwards in the division, not because he's scored 19 goals because somebody else could quite easily take penalties. In fact, I think Drinkwater would be 15+ for the season if he took penalties. 

 

 

Nugent is in the same bracket as the likes of Ings, McCormack, Austin, Martin and Rhodes on goals scored. But most of those players have hit their tallies without the need for goals put on a plate for them. A penalty is never saved, they're missed.

 

 

However, fair play for him being one of the senior members of the side and taking responsibility. I know it's a pressure situation so I commend him for that.

 

I just find it ridiculous that people think he's the "go to guy" if we need a goal. Personally I think Vardy has been that player. 16 goals from open play is a magnificent achievement and, for me, he's our "goalscorer", Nugent is our "goal maker".

 

 

Both are extremely valuable to our side and they each need each other's qualities to form the best strike partnership in the division IMO. 

 

Both spot on.

 

No-one has ever said penalties don't count, that's just a tag line that has been used to discredit those making a valid point that Nugent's goal tally wasn't reflective of his season from open play. Of course it's easier to score a penalty than a goal from open play, that's the whole idea of them to give a team an advantage to score a goal when a foul has been committed.

 

Nugent's penalties have been a major contribution towards our season, no doubt. But Vardy's goal tally is far more impressive given that he's not far behind and hasn't taken a single penalty.

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Middlesbrough, Forest and Bolton off the top of my head.

 

I think he's had 12, which means he's missed a quarter. That's shit in my opinion. You really shouldn't miss.

 

Poor goalkeeping meant that he scored against Wigan too. Carson got both hands to it.

 

Using the stats in the OP, but yeah - the middlesboro one was missed. Still, 75% is better than the average conversion rate in Euro 2012 (69.4%) and bang on for the premiership.

 

He's very good at penalties, varying up the directions is much better than just getting into one corner. I'd much rather face someone who went for one corner than one whose placement is as erratic as Nugents - so much harder to read Nugent than the first taker.

 

Here we go again;

 

Well done to David Nugent for scoring the penalties (most of them) when the opportunity has presented itself, no doubt those goals have enabled the team to secure more points.

 

On a personal level, when comparing Nugent's goal tally from previous season's, when he didn't take penalties, this season is pretty poor. Penalties are a bonus, you cannot rely upon them.

 

I'm not a Nugent fan, I never will be, I feel that he holds us back - I won't and can't be bothered to go into the details again.

 

He's been playing a very different role this season - he's been doing the leg work to create chances for Vardy, playing the withdrawn role. And here we go - you've already made up your mind before even bothering to look at performances - the approach of the mentally deficient.

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Using the stats in the OP, but yeah - the middlesboro one was missed. Still, 75% is better than the average conversion rate in Euro 2012 (69.4%) and bang on for the premiership.

He's very good at penalties, varying up the directions is much better than just getting into one corner. I'd much rather face someone who went for one corner than one whose placement is as erratic as Nugents - so much harder to read Nugent than the first taker.

He's been playing a very different role this season - he's been doing the leg work to create chances for Vardy, playing the withdrawn role. And here we go - you've already made up your mind before even bothering to look at performances - the approach of the mentally deficient.

Pretty sure that the average in the top flight is up at 80% and this season even higher.

Nugent is ok at penalties.

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It's not that they don't count.

 

 

It's just silly to use the argument that Nugent is a goalscorer, a finisher, etc.. because he's scored almost half of his goals this season from the spot when really, a penalty is designed to give the taker a serious chance to score. So much so that if they don't score then they are lambasted for it (and rightly so). In fact, i'd go as far to say that Nugent isn't a very good penalty taker, he doesn't find the corner and has missed about a quarter of the ones he's taken. I personally think that Wood is our best taker (despite him missing one next season). Look at his goal during his hattrick in the cup earlier in the season, he drove one right into the corner giving the keeper no hope. Nugent sort of side foots it to one side, if the keeper guesses correctly then they'll save them 9 times out of 10.

 

 

Next week's lottery numbers while you're at it? 

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It's not that they don't count.

It's just silly to use the argument that Nugent is a goalscorer, a finisher, etc.. because he's scored almost half of his goals this season from the spot when really, a penalty is designed to give the taker a serious chance to score. So much so that if they don't score then they are lambasted for it (and rightly so). In fact, i'd go as far to say that Nugent isn't a very good penalty taker, he doesn't find the corner and has missed about a quarter of the ones he's taken. I personally think that Wood is our best taker (despite him missing one next season). Look at his goal during his hattrick in the cup earlier in the season, he drove one right into the corner giving the keeper no hope. Nugent sort of side foots it to one side, if the keeper guesses correctly then they'll save them 9 times out of 10.

Nugent has other qualities, he's our leading goal maker and his interplay has meant that Vardy has had the season he's had, I'm not in the camp of "he's not good enough" because I realise that he brings no end of good to the team. But he misses so many chances because he's simply not a "goalscorer". He plays his best football when he's got Vardy in front of him. He recieves the ball from midfield, turns and usually finds the right pass. This is why I rate him as one of the best forwards in the division, not because he's scored 19 goals because somebody else could quite easily take penalties. In fact, I think Drinkwater would be 15+ for the season if he took penalties.

Nugent is in the same bracket as the likes of Ings, McCormack, Austin, Martin and Rhodes on goals scored. But most of those players have hit their tallies without the need for goals put on a plate for them. A penalty is never saved, they're missed.

However, fair play for him being one of the senior members of the side and taking responsibility. I know it's a pressure situation so I commend him for that.

I just find it ridiculous that people think he's the "go to guy" if we need a goal. Personally I think Vardy has been that player. 16 goals from open play is a magnificent achievement and, for me, he's our "goalscorer", Nugent is our "goal maker".

Both are extremely valuable to our side and they each need each other's qualities to form the best strike partnership in the division IMO.

Even though in his previous two seasons with only taking one penalty he was top scorer in both? Not bad for a lad that can't finish.

Even without his penalties this season he is still into doubles figures, and he's still contributed a hell of a lot to our team whilst not failing to forget he's actually played a withdrawn strikers role this season.

At least you've recognised that he offers the team something, though.

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I'd sooner remember his goals from open play: Leeds away, Burnley away and QPR at home that have given us points we wouldn't otherwise have got. Not to mention his numerous assists. He's also been pivotal in allowing us to vary the way we play by dropping back into midfield.

I don't really understand why there is a constant diagnosis of Nugent's performances when he's such an important part of our team. Sure he has his rubbish games, but for me he fires more often than someone like Knocky who never gets the same amount of criticism. Vardy may have overtaken him this season in terms of being our number one striker, but Nuge has contributed considerably towards some of his successs as well.

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The posts in this thread have restored my faith in humanity a little. I'm sick of the morons that say "penalties dont count lulz", trying to discredit a valid argument. No-one has been saying that. They're just not a reflection on a strikers ability, it's a free shot at goal that should be scored 80% of the time.

 

So whereas I'm not getting too much into the debate of whether Nugent has had a good season or not, people saying "how can you say he has been poor when he's scored 20 goals" are deluded.

 

Kasper could have scored 8 penalties, wouldn't make him a great striker.

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