Vacamion Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 Opinion polls suggest that "stay in" would now win. We all know how reliable opinion polls are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nalis Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 I'm all for democracy but I just hope the ill informed abstain from voting on this referendum. The benefits of staying in the EU far outweigh the costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADK Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 True, but there is very little else to monitor the moves of Parliament. Yes it's somewhat undemorcratic, but so are many of the ways in which we make law in this country. It's all well and good listing the restraints and negatives that the EU has brougth with it, as there are many, but it's also brought some huge benefits for the 'every man', such as preventing rip off phone tariffs, pesticide control, monitors on food labelling, free movement of persons, as well as competition law. The idea of a federal Europe doesn't appeal to me at all, but neither does Parilament having a free reign. Anybody have an up to date opinion poll on it? I'd imagine out is growing. "In" is at its highest levels for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 Staying in the EU is essential. to what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie1999 Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 to what? Keeping all those straight bananas out of the uk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry_LCFC Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 Haven't they limited the power of our hoovers and lightbulbs in the UK? We pay £15 billion for that bullshit. Oh and the millions of people that can freely pour into the country and stay here. There are some fundamental flaws in the EU. I would get out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 The problem with the EU is pretty fundamental. At its heart are people who want a federal United States of Europe. They are quite clear and unequivocal on this. The British people on the other hand want no such thing... Don't they? Your opinion is not that of the British people, you would probably be surprised by how many people want closer ties to Europe. We currently lose about £13Billion a year to the EU and that would help balance the books quite nicely. We do not lose £13 billion a year to the EU, that is like saying you lose £20,000 a year to tax, you don't lose this money, it is to cover the cost of paying for things which are supposed to be beneficial to the whole of Europe including us. We are one of the highest contributors and it is estimated that in what we pay and how we benefit it is costing us 4.7bn Euro, so about £3.5 bn, but this isn't a loss, this money goes towards strengthening Europe as a whole, particularly the poorer countries in the EU. To exit Europe now would probably be the most obtuse course of action we could take, we have spent the last decade propping up the weaker economies during a crisis, now we are coming out of the crisis and will start seeing the benefit of a much stronger Europe and recovering economies we want out, then we would have lost all that money because we have thrown it away. Nobody is saying that the EU is perfect but we are much stronger in the EU than out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 People who understand so little, spouting so much. That will be the result of this referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 14 May 2015 Author Share Posted 14 May 2015 I'm all for democracy but I just hope the ill informed abstain from voting on this referendum. The benefits of staying in the EU far outweigh the costs. Arguably we are all ill informed. I've read a lot of people's views on the 3 options and for everyone saying the benefits outweigh the costs there is someone saying the opposite. I'm still non the wiser as to what is best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darko2k7 Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 You don't have to be in the EU to be in the Champions League! Why the baffled face? I have no idea if u are right or wrong on that but surely if i'm wrong its not baffling for me to think that to play in the European champions league you actually have to be European ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 Arguably we are all ill informed. I've read a lot of people's views on the 3 options and for everyone saying the benefits outweigh the costs there is someone saying the opposite. I'm still non the wiser as to what is best. We will never be able to judge what is the best until we get some concrete answers on what will happen when we leave the EU, if we can leave the EU but still enter into the free trade agreements with the EU, and all the other non EU countries that they have preferential trade agreements with: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-13-576_en.htm and that existing contracts will be honoured and continued on the terms agreed. Then we may not be so negatively affected, but there is no guarantee of any of that, it is a massive unknown to leave the EU, we also need guarantees and agreements in place to protect the millions of British workers currently working and living abroad and those that are employed here. There is also the possibility that while we are debating whether to be in or out other member states will be discouraged from dealing with us, as we are a flight risk. At the moment we are coming out of a huge economic crisis and we need stability and strong trade deals more, rather than uncertainty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 Why the baffled face? I have no idea if u are right or wrong on that but surely if i'm wrong its not baffling for me to think that to play in the European champions league you actually have to be European ! We are not talking about leaving Europe, just the political bloc that is the EU, we will still be in UEFA and the Eurovision song contest for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blur Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 Why the baffled face? I have no idea if u are right or wrong on that but surely if i'm wrong its not baffling for me to think that to play in the European champions league you actually have to be European ! I wonder how FC Basel managed to play in Champions League this season...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaspa Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 I dont fully understand all the ins and outs, pros and cons of this. My head says to stay in and cant see the EU collapsing Watched this though and it might add some context for people, channels pretty good too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 First of all I wouldn't give an answer until we find out what Cameron can renegotiate. Anyone jumping on a side of in or out immediately now is rather silly giving they don't even know what is being offered up. The EU is very good for some things, for a country with a strong economy like ours we attract the brightest and best across the continent, it's great for big business and the wealthy, if we stay as a strong nation producing jobs we'll economically thrive on it. For poorer countries it's a disaster, it brings huge public spending cuts through debt and mass unemployment like it has in Greece and Spain, they lose their best people to the richer nations, it's incredible a country like Poland for the first time in it's history is now struggling to find doctors as they are all leaving. As Jon points out the people inside it are obsessed with creating a European superstate and that just isn't going to work. Of course for me it wil probably boil down to personal sovereignty, a country has to be able to make decisions on it's own without interference from people who have never been elected by it's people. That said, I think the thing will collapse anyway in the next twenty years, the econmic powerhouses won't be able to hold the poorest in such contempt as they do now for much longer. Whatever happens Great Britain will remain great whatever, we were strong for thousands of years before the EU and we will be afterwards whether we are in or out. I just hope the debate it's fought on facts and not ridiculous hyberpole like the stuff we are aleady seeing. (English clubs won't be allowed in the Champions League ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 In. Almost all of the common arguments against are just stupidly misinformed and based on tabloid sensationalism Staying in the EU is essential. Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 It all depends on the negotiations, if we were having the vote tomorrow I'd be voting to leave. If we can get some opt outs to some of the ridiculous schemes, the ever closer union nonsense and the needless bureaucracy (I'd like control of our fishing grounds too) I'd probably vote to stay in. I don't know enough about it to comment fully. That doesn't normally stop you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blur Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 I wonder if Cameron will be giving it his all to renegotiate terms or will it be a half arsed effort in the hope we all will vote to opt out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGEROUS TIGER Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 The problem with the EU is pretty fundamental. At its heart are people who want a federal United States of Europe. They are quite clear and unequivocal on this. The British people on the other hand want no such thing, so we have a a clear point that if that is the route that the main countries choose, we will not follow. You are left then with what we really signed up to, which is an economic free trade zone. Is it worth remaining in an outer circle of the EU to retain the free trade? Personally I think it isn't, as we could achieve that much more cheaply and with better control outside the EU. Unless someone managed to convince me otherwise I would vote to come out, as long as we can put in place trade agreements so it is economically business as usual, but politically and legally more free. My sentiments, exactly. OUT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 This is one POV but not the one I saw some time ago. I will see if I can find it for balance. ATM I could not decide one way or the other.I will leave the decision for the better informed. http://www.betteroffout.net/the-case/10-eu-myths-about-withdrawl/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parafox Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 The problem with the EU is pretty fundamental. At its heart are people who want a federal United States of Europe. They are quite clear and unequivocal on this. The British people on the other hand want no such thing, so we have a a clear point that if that is the route that the main countries choose, we will not follow. You are left then with what we really signed up to, which is an economic free trade zone. Is it worth remaining in an outer circle of the EU to retain the free trade? Personally I think it isn't, as we could achieve that much more cheaply and with better control outside the EU. Unless someone managed to convince me otherwise I would vote to come out, as long as we can put in place trade agreements so it is economically business as usual, but politically and legally more free. I agree, mostly, with this. I listened to an ex EU President on Radio 5 earlier today, I think it was Crespo, (not THAT one). He wants the whole of EU nations to be permanently joined and wants this to lead to a European Federal army, binding agreements on all trade within the EU, with no individual nation to have trade agreements with nonEU countries. He envisions European countries becoming disregarded by places like the Far East, India and China. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Fynwy Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 The people who use Switzerland as a potential model for a UK outside the EU really don't understand how much The EU affects Swiss law and how many laws they've had to bring in to be compliant, these are laws that they are having to pass but have no input in drawing up the laws because they are outside of the EU system. There are plenty of things wrong with the EU system but it's better to have the ability to participate in formulation of legislation you'll have to comply with in my opinion. The UK needs parties to take the EU more seriously, the conservatives not having any major allies in the EU Parliament since they set up their own little group is a joke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 The people who use Switzerland as a potential model for a UK outside the EU really don't understand how much The EU affects Swiss law and how many laws they've had to bring in to be compliant, these are laws that they are having to pass but have no input in drawing up the laws because they are outside of the EU system. There are plenty of things wrong with the EU system but it's better to have the ability to participate in formulation of legislation you'll have to comply with in my opinion. The UK needs parties to take the EU more seriously, the conservatives not having any major allies in the EU Parliament since they set up their own little group is a joke Give some examples of these laws please, how detrimental would they be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseBreath Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 The people who use Switzerland as a potential model for a UK outside the EU really don't understand how much The EU affects Swiss law and how many laws they've had to bring in to be compliant, these are laws that they are having to pass but have no input in drawing up the laws because they are outside of the EU system. There are plenty of things wrong with the EU system but it's better to have the ability to participate in formulation of legislation you'll have to comply with in my opinion. The UK needs parties to take the EU more seriously, the conservatives not having any major allies in the EU Parliament since they set up their own little group is a joke Switzerland chooses which EU legislation it wants to accept, including free movement of people, while still having free trade, which is the ideal scenario for the UK. You'd do well to find a Swiss person who wants to be in the EEA, never mind the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMX11 Posted 14 May 2015 Share Posted 14 May 2015 I wonder if Cameron will be giving it his all to renegotiate terms or will it be a half arsed effort in the hope we all will vote to opt out? Cameron is one of the most pro EU politicians about, he would attempt to make any negotiation seem a great triumph and proclaim that we should stay in. Frankly a customs union model is so outdated, we should be looking for as much free trade as possible and we can't do that in the EU because of the protectionist countries who don't like it abd the fact we have given those powers away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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