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Lorry drives into Christmas Market - Berlin

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Have I really read that people are surprised by this? I would have been more surprised had we got to Christmas without some sort of attack. The good news is so far it's been better than last year when this happened numerous times in France in the run up.

 

Germany is going to be dealing with things like this for decades thanks to Merkel's decision, they can't say they weren't warned and they certainly shouldn't act surprised.

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38 minutes ago, MattP said:

Have I really read that people are surprised by this? I would have been more surprised had we got to Christmas without some sort of attack. The good news is so far it's been better than last year when this happened numerous times in France in the run up.

 

Germany is going to be dealing with things like this for decades thanks to Merkel's decision, they can't say they weren't warned and they certainly shouldn't act surprised.

Something doesn't sit right with me when I read this.

 

So we or the UK should be content that "only" a dozen people have died in Berlin, with a further 48 injured, some of them badly?

Every life lost in the process of a terrorist attack is a tragedy, and you want to play a numbers' game? Sick.

 

Also, we don't know why the attack happened in Berlin and blaming Merkel or her policies already is just one of many knee-jerk reactions.

It could well be that major cities all across Europe are the target/will be targeted over the festive season for similar attacks, as well - with Berlin acting as a starting point.

But you seem to be relatively happy about that faraway Germany has now been witness to a scene of such human horror. "Better them than us".

Out of sight, out of mind?

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23 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Something doesn't sit right with me when I read this.

 

So we or the UK should be content that "only" a dozen people have died in Berlin, with a further 48 injured, some of them badly?

Every life lost in the process of a terrorist attack is a tragedy, and you want to play a numbers' game? Sick.

 

Also, we don't know why the attack happened in Berlin and blaming Merkel or her policies already is just one of many knee-jerk reactions.

It could well be that major cities all across Europe are the target/will be targeted over the festive season for similar attacks, as well - with Berlin acting as a starting point.

But you seem to be relatively happy about that faraway Germany has now been witness to a scene of such human horror. "Better them than us".

Out of sight, out of mind?

I've just read my post back and I have no idea where I have expressed any content relative happiness (wtf?) that this has happened, all I said was it's not as bad as this time last year, which is fact.

 

The person who has done this is an asylum seeker, just turning a blind eye to the fact migration policy is playing a part in this isn't going to help anyone or make it go away.

 

Merkel is even now going to campaign to ban the burka next year ( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-burqa-burka-ban-veils-angela-merkel-cdu-muslims-speech-refugee-crisis-elections-term-vote-a7458536.html ), that's what she is having to resort to now, when politicians are importing a million Muslims in 2016, many of whom who IS, the Red Crescent etc have told us will be radicals and then a year later is planning something like that, it's become pretty clear they have either completely lost the plot, or have just completely lose any sort of touch witth reality when it comes to political policy.

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10 minutes ago, MattP said:

I've just read my post back and I have no idea where I have expressed any content relative happiness (wtf?) that this has happened, all I said was it's not as bad as this time last year, which is fact.

 

The person who has done this is an asylum seeker, just turning a blind eye to the fact migration policy is playing a part in this isn't going to help anyone or make it go away.

 

Merkel is even now going to campaign to ban the burka next year ( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-burqa-burka-ban-veils-angela-merkel-cdu-muslims-speech-refugee-crisis-elections-term-vote-a7458536.html ), that's what she is having to resort to now, when politicians are importing a million Muslims in 2016, many of whom who IS, the Red Crescent etc have told us will be radicals and then a year later is planning something like that, it's become pretty clear they have either completely lost the plot, or have just completely lose any sort of touch witth reality when it comes to political policy.

I think it's the fact you said its 'good news' that it's not as bad as last year. I know what you mean, but I found your original post quite cold and calculated. Most of the posts are showing anger, sympathy, frustration and sadness while yours puts the political slant on it - which is fair enough. I'm sure you feel as equally upset as the rest of us.

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I was in Berlin this year, always hits me a little bit more when I have been to the places that have been attacked. Tunisia, Brussells and now Berlin, I have stood where these attacks have happended.

 

Its scary how easy it can be for someone to cause terror if they have the wish too.

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1 hour ago, MattP said:

I've just read my post back and I have no idea where I have expressed any content relative happiness (wtf?) that this has happened, all I said was it's not as bad as this time last year, which is fact.

 

The person who has done this is an asylum seeker, just turning a blind eye to the fact migration policy is playing a part in this isn't going to help anyone or make it go away.

 

Merkel is even now going to campaign to ban the burka next year ( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-burqa-burka-ban-veils-angela-merkel-cdu-muslims-speech-refugee-crisis-elections-term-vote-a7458536.html ), that's what she is having to resort to now, when politicians are importing a million Muslims in 2016, many of whom who IS, the Red Crescent etc have told us will be radicals and then a year later is planning something like that, it's become pretty clear they have either completely lost the plot, or have just completely lose any sort of touch witth reality when it comes to political policy.

Your post came across as rather fatalistic as seen from the outside and somewhat condescending. Like I said, it has the ring of "Better them than us" to it.

 

Also, you have the ability to condense/merge different topics or aspects of a topic into a new one and make it sound like there's a mass-scale Muslim conspiracy going on (I hope I worded that correctly or it comes across as such).

 

Banning Burqas is a peculiar part of the matter, insofar as we as a Western society are split between our demands of foreigners/immigrants adhering to local customs and the execution of personal liberties/freedom of speech. The burqa is a symbol of Muslim world, so I suppose women should have the right to choose between wearing one or not - although I guess it'd be nicer if they didn't so you can actually look into their eyes if need be. I think some Muslim women still choose to wear a burqa because they want to, it's not like every single one of them is oppressed because of it. The root of the evil is rather the place of the Muslim woman in their own society and the power men have over them. Liberating Muslim women would be the right approach - the discussion surrounding the burqa's just pulling the wool over everybody's eyes.

 

Which brings me to the second part of your post.

The vast majority of refugees are (young) males.

https://www.rt.com/news/343753-germany-refugees-males-statistics/

(A study on refugees to Germany)

 

Politicians aren't "importing" Muslims - do you want to send them back where they came from and increase the risk of them getting killed?

Speaking of the root of the problem once more, who caused and supported the wars that led to so many people fleeing their country of origin?

How many members of ISIS really are part of the refugee nation? My guess is only a fraction and they're the ones giving everybody else a bad reputation. You seem to be quite fearful and - as other have stated - rather cold towards the whole issue, in a sense that you'd rather have other nations deal with the issues (that don't concern you directly), but then are swift to condemn them if they fail to do so ("Bloody Germans, can't even hold back those bloody Muslims - now they're coming to the UK", if you don't mind me exaggerating a little).

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39 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Your post came across as rather fatalistic as seen from the outside and somewhat condescending. Like I said, it has the ring of "Better them than us" to it.

 

Also, you have the ability to condense/merge different topics or aspects of a topic into a new one and make it sound like there's a mass-scale Muslim conspiracy going on (I hope I worded that correctly or it comes across as such).

 

Banning Burqas is a peculiar part of the matter, insofar as we as a Western society are split between our demands of foreigners/immigrants adhering to local customs and the execution of personal liberties/freedom of speech. The burqa is a symbol of Muslim world, so I suppose women should have the right to choose between wearing one or not - although I guess it'd be nicer if they didn't so you can actually look into their eyes if need be. I think some Muslim women still choose to wear a burqa because they want to, it's not like every single one of them is oppressed because of it. The root of the evil is rather the place of the Muslim woman in their own society and the power men have over them. Liberating Muslim women would be the right approach - the discussion surrounding the burqa's just pulling the wool over everybody's eyes.

 

Which brings me to the second part of your post.

The vast majority of refugees are (young) males.

https://www.rt.com/news/343753-germany-refugees-males-statistics/

(A study on refugees to Germany)

 

Politicians aren't "importing" Muslims - do you want to send them back where they came from and increase the risk of them getting killed?

Speaking of the root of the problem once more, who caused and supported the wars that led to so many people fleeing their country of origin?

How many members of ISIS really are part of the refugee nation? My guess is only a fraction and they're the ones giving everybody else a bad reputation. You seem to be quite fearful and - as other have stated - rather cold towards the whole issue, in a sense that you'd rather have other nations deal with the issues (that don't concern you directly), but then are swift to condemn them if they fail to do so ("Bloody Germans, can't even hold back those bloody Muslims - now they're coming to the UK", if you don't mind me exaggerating a little).

I'm not even going to reply to the first bit, it doesn't even make any sense to me. Keep up the exaggerations, I get the feeling your side of the argument desperately needs them to defend this so I'll give you some leeway.

 

The important stuff though ie the situation Germany has now put itself in is well worth talking about, extensively - Obviously impossible to get a accurate figure but a Lebenese government minister believes it could be as many as 2% of the refugee population could be an extremist or connected to ISIS (  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/1-in-50-syrian-refugees-in-europe-could-be-an-isis-jihadist-minister-warns-david-cameron-10501249.html ) -

So if he has that right that will be 30,000 potential Jihadis in the 1.5million Merkel has decided to open the borders to, fair play if you are up for that, you are far more tolerant than me and I commend you. (I mean even if it's only 0.5% it's a potential 7,500)

 

I don't want to send them back, but I wouldn't have invited them in the first place, I want to help but the long term risk of the above just simply isn't worth it, though if I did, there simply had to be background checks to the best of what they could do, rather than just showing up and being able to claim status.

 

Who caused and supported the wars on their nations? Well Assad if you are talking Syria, Saudi Arabia if you are talking Yemen, but this guy was a Pakistani, so no one in this case. In what way does the responsibility fall on Germany?

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I'm not sure "a Lebanese politician said" is the most reliable source.

 

That's the kind of calculation you'd expect to see in the Express, Matt. 

 

I mean, I get where you're coming from in pointing out the very obvious dangers of an open door policy but then chastising Alex for hyperbole (and you were right, he is being a bit ott in his interpretation of your views) and then implying there's a base minimum of thousands of jihadis running rampant round Germany is probably a bit hypocritical.

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13 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

I'm not sure "a Lebanese politician said" is the most reliable source.

 

That's the kind of calculation you'd expect to see in the Express, Matt. 

 

I mean, I get where you're coming from in pointing out the very obvious dangers of an open door policy but then chastising Alex for hyperbole (and you were right, he is being a bit ott in his interpretation of your views) and then implying there's a base minimum of thousands of jihadis running rampant round Germany is probably a bit hypocritical.

Can you think of a better one? Lebanon has taken more refugees than any other country from Syria and is right on the front line. We simply don't have a clue how many potential jihadis are in that group, it could be hundreds, it could be thousands, it's certainly going to be a fair number given they have decided to take in 1.5million mostly young men from a war zone, IS weren't exactly shy about telling us either that they would use the migrant crisis to sneak people in.

 

The idea some people want to push a line that Merkel can't be questioned for this is absurd, politicians have to be held accountable for the things they do and the policy they impose, some people seem to get more upset these days about Donald Trump saying something about women in trousers than they do about dead bodies piling up, I really don't get it.

 

When you have people like the Dalai Lama (who I doubt is reading his Daily Expres) openly saying that Germany must make sure it doesn't become an Arab country, it might be time to wonder if the tolerance and liberalism of some Western politicians might be going a little bit too far.

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2 hours ago, MC Prussian said:

Politicians aren't "importing" Muslims - do you want to send them back where they came from and increase the risk of them getting killed?

Honestly, yes. Without trying to sound heartless, they really aren't our problem.

 

We should be protecting the citizens first, the people who already legally live here.

It's not worth the risk at this point.

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3 hours ago, Itsthejoeker said:

 

These days?

 

we-terrorism-20160901.png

Is it too hard to believe some people on here grew up in the relative peace of the 90's and 00's? Compared to what many of the younger generations are used to this is a lot worse than it used to be. Even to me born in 79, the stuff during the 80's and early 90's is nothing more than a fleeting memory as you were out playing footy or with your mates and not watching the news.

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2 minutes ago, Kitchandro said:

Honestly, yes. Without trying to sound heartless, they really aren't our problem.

 

We should be protecting the citizens first, the people who already legally live here.

It's not worth the risk at this point.

First thing we need to do is change foreign policy in the ME. Swallow our pride a little and accept that some of our 'allies' are not exactly that, and the governments we oppose may not be the root cause of the problem.

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7 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Is it too hard to believe some people on here grew up in the relative peace of the 90's and 00's? Compared to what many of the younger generations are used to this is a lot worse than it used to be. Even to me born in 79, the stuff during the 80's and early 90's is nothing more than a fleeting memory as you were out playing footy or with your mates and not watching the news.

 

 

Funnily enough I was born in the relative peace of the 90's and 00's, a couple of history lessons and a brief understanding of what happened 30 or 40 years ago has opened my eyes up to the fact we are still in a period of relative peace in the west. Terrorism is a disgusting act of cowardice, and so many innocent lives have been lost so tragically, but the scare and hate mongering going on is bordering on irrational. It is not the end of the world. 

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14 minutes ago, Kitchandro said:

Honestly, yes. Without trying to sound heartless, they really aren't our problem.

 

We should be protecting the citizens first, the people who already legally live here.

It's not worth the risk at this point.

 

11 minutes ago, bovril said:

First thing we need to do is change foreign policy in the ME. Swallow our pride a little and accept that some of our 'allies' are not exactly that, and the governments we oppose may not be the root cause of the problem.

Either of you (or anybody) think the freedom of movement should be changed too and we go back to guards on borders etc? Do they have border guards anywhere at all now?

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8 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

 

Either of you (or anybody) think the freedom of movement should be changed too and we go back to guards on borders etc? Do they have border guards anywhere at all now?

Yes.

It seems the identity of the attacker is still unknown. May be German born for all we know.

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17 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

 

Either of you (or anybody) think the freedom of movement should be changed too and we go back to guards on borders etc? Do they have border guards anywhere at all now?

Loads of places, including Germany, and here, at our ports.

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