David Guiza Posted 20 December 2016 Share Posted 20 December 2016 I find it all very difficult. On the one it is an obvious danger to allow people into your country knowing full well that the open borders are likely to have a damning effect somewhere down the line, such as this. However, I really do dislike the argument of 'not our problem'. I completely understand where the argument comes from. However, and without meaning to sound like John Lennon, we're all just humans at the end of the day. Borders, countries, the economy, etc etc are all man-made constructs that we have imposed upon ourselves. Maybe I'm naive, but for me to turn your back on thousands of desperate human beings fleeing in desperation because there is a chance that one or a few may commit a crime months down the line is wrong. Why are they any less deserving of the opportunities that we're given, simply because they had the unfortunate luck of being born into a war torn country? I'm not so blind that I can't see the problems with immigration and refugees, but to completely wipe your hands of them as they're not 'our problem' is a very sad state of affairs. Also, we (as a nation) are already far too involved too turn out back and not expect repercussion anyway. I also don't buy into the argument that we live in a more dangerous time now than 20/30/40 years ago. The main difference for me is the increase in rolling news, social media etc, access to both good and awful news is far greater than it ever has been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnaldo Posted 20 December 2016 Share Posted 20 December 2016 1 hour ago, Itsthejoeker said: Funnily enough I was born in the relative peace of the 90's and 00's, a couple of history lessons and a brief understanding of what happened 30 or 40 years ago has opened my eyes up to the fact we are still in a period of relative peace in the west. Terrorism is a disgusting act of cowardice, and so many innocent lives have been lost so tragically, but the scare and hate mongering going on is bordering on irrational. It is not the end of the world. I can't speak on behalf of older generation as I was only born in '97 but I'd imagine that a lot of it is down to the fact that whereas it would be limited to newspapers, TV news and word of mouth. which as you said could easily be missed by kids/teens who'd rather be hanging around with their mates, or even adults who don't keep up on the news. I'd imagine it was easier to be a lot less aware of events and could get away with a tut and a "that's terrible". Today it's at on mobile news apps and all over your social media. 20-25 years ago, how many people would have even known that a Russian Ambassador was murdered in Turkey? And contextually that's a fairly insignificant story to this part of Europe. But when a Berlin, Paris or Nice happens everyone is instantly aware of what's happened and a level of posturing is expected. How tragic it is, a temporary profile picture filter and then you can comment on your social media echo chamber, whether it be Liberal or Anti-Immigration, and get instant ratification on your views. Don't get me wrong, I get it's been more prevalent in times past, but everyone is far more aware of events and both sides of the argument always take it in their preference and as usual social media poisons if not totally eliminates any notion of discussion or debate. MY view is ALWAYS right and if you disagree then you're a limp leftie/racist islamophobe etc, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 20 December 2016 Share Posted 20 December 2016 43 minutes ago, David Guiza said: I find it all very difficult. On the one it is an obvious danger to allow people into your country knowing full well that the open borders are likely to have a damning effect somewhere down the line, such as this. However, I really do dislike the argument of 'not our problem'. I completely understand where the argument comes from. However, and without meaning to sound like John Lennon, we're all just humans at the end of the day. Borders, countries, the economy, etc etc are all man-made constructs that we have imposed upon ourselves. Maybe I'm naive, but for me to turn your back on thousands of desperate human beings fleeing in desperation because there is a chance that one or a few may commit a crime months down the line is wrong. Why are they any less deserving of the opportunities that we're given, simply because they had the unfortunate luck of being born into a war torn country? I'm not so blind that I can't see the problems with immigration and refugees, but to completely wipe your hands of them as they're not 'our problem' is a very sad state of affairs. Also, we (as a nation) are already far too involved too turn out back and not expect repercussion anyway. I also don't buy into the argument that we live in a more dangerous time now than 20/30/40 years ago. The main difference for me is the increase in rolling news, social media etc, access to both good and awful news is far greater than it ever has been. 1 minute ago, Finnaldo said: I can't speak on behalf of older generation as I was only born in '97 but I'd imagine that a lot of it is down to the fact that whereas it would be limited to newspapers, TV news and word of mouth. which as you said could easily be missed by kids/teens who'd rather be hanging around with their mates, or even adults who don't keep up on the news. I'd imagine it was easier to be a lot less aware of events and could get away with a tut and a "that's terrible". Today it's at on mobile news apps and all over your social media. 20-25 years ago, how many people would have even known that a Russian Ambassador was murdered in Turkey? And contextually that's a fairly insignificant story to this part of Europe. But when a Berlin, Paris or Nice happens everyone is instantly aware of what's happened and a level of posturing is expected. How tragic it is, a temporary profile picture filter and then you can comment on your social media echo chamber, whether it be Liberal or Anti-Immigration, and get instant ratification on your views. Don't get me wrong, I get it's been more prevalent in times past, but everyone is far more aware of events and both sides of the argument always take it in their preference and as usual social media poisons if not totally eliminates any notion of discussion or debate. MY view is ALWAYS right and if you disagree then you're a limp leftie/racist islamophobe etc, etc. This. And this. The world overall is probably more stable than it was even a few decades ago (think Stanislav Petrov) but the effect of social media is to act as a magnifier for every single event, good or bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwell Pablo Posted 20 December 2016 Share Posted 20 December 2016 15 minutes ago, Finnaldo said: I can't speak on behalf of older generation as I was only born in '97 but I'd imagine that a lot of it is down to the fact that whereas it would be limited to newspapers, TV news and word of mouth. which as you said could easily be missed by kids/teens who'd rather be hanging around with their mates, or even adults who don't keep up on the news. I'd imagine it was easier to be a lot less aware of events and could get away with a tut and a "that's terrible". Today it's at on mobile news apps and all over your social media. 20-25 years ago, how many people would have even known that a Russian Ambassador was murdered in Turkey? And contextually that's a fairly insignificant story to this part of Europe. But when a Berlin, Paris or Nice happens everyone is instantly aware of what's happened and a level of posturing is expected. How tragic it is, a temporary profile picture filter and then you can comment on your social media echo chamber, whether it be Liberal or Anti-Immigration, and get instant ratification on your views. Don't get me wrong, I get it's been more prevalent in times past, but everyone is far more aware of events and both sides of the argument always take it in their preference and as usual social media poisons if not totally eliminates any notion of discussion or debate. MY view is ALWAYS right and if you disagree then you're a limp leftie/racist islamophobe etc, etc. Your probably right there to be fair. ISIS are a bit more demonized than the IRA or ETA as well, that also probably has a bit to do with social media, and the fact ISIS seem to want to indiscriminately wipe out 9/10s of the world, there is no negotiating to be done with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 20 December 2016 Share Posted 20 December 2016 37 minutes ago, leicsmac said: This. And this. The world overall is probably more stable than it was even a few decades ago (think Stanislav Petrov) but the effect of social media is to act as a magnifier for every single event, good or bad. For a minute I genuinely thought you were talking about the Aston Villa midfielder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionator Posted 20 December 2016 Share Posted 20 December 2016 The root problem is that the Western countries (you could even include the likes of Russia in this too) have continuously interfered with the middle east since pretty much the late 80's. Bin Laden wasn't bothered about the US until they intervened in the middle east, and the current Syria situation has been the ultimate in terms of foreign powers messing around within another country whether it be for oil, impossible democracy or some pathetic proxy war against another global superpower. Then when we offer shelter to these people who have been displaced due to these wars, we're shocked and appalled that a minority of messed up scumbags are a bit annoyed, get radicalised and unleash their appalling acts on us. It's not that Muslims can't integrate with the rest of the population, it's maybe because they dislike western intervention in their countries and don't trust us (the west). The way the world is going re nationalism, I can only see this problem getting worse, sociological research shows that out casting groups fuels fire and brings them closer together to fight a cause so expect more attacks from refugees. Maybe Merkel was naive in her generosity to refugees, but at least she has the balls to own up to the mistakes that the west have made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox92 Posted 20 December 2016 Share Posted 20 December 2016 No surprise to see ISIS claim it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 20 December 2016 Share Posted 20 December 2016 40 minutes ago, Fox92 said: No surprise to see ISIS claim it. ISIS will claim anything. They're the David Nugent of international terrorism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isaidno Posted 20 December 2016 Share Posted 20 December 2016 Went to Berlin Xmas market last year , and my sister is going next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 20 December 2016 Share Posted 20 December 2016 1 hour ago, bovril said: ISIS will claim anything. They're the David Nugent of international terrorism. That maybe the case as there is no info on the assailant but Isis or a believer is the most likely culprit(s). Very sad event, especially if it turns out to be a asylum seeker. I have friends and colleagues in Berlin, the hatred of Merkel and the change in heart about asylum seekers is becomming more apparent. The rise of the right wing is scary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAFKA Castroneves Posted 20 December 2016 Share Posted 20 December 2016 25 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said: That maybe the case as there is no info on the assailant but Isis or a believer is the most likely culprit(s). Very sad event, especially if it turns out to be a asylum seeker. I have friends and colleagues in Berlin, the hatred of Merkel and the change in heart about asylum seekers is becomming more apparent. The rise of the right wing is scary See what you said there at the end is what concerns me - i'm going to get shot down but i'll still put this out there and hope for the best ISIS claim - yes, but did they actually do it? Seems to me if it was - surely they'd have hit a few targets on the same night, similar fashion - maximum impact and it wouldn't be that hard for them to organise if they wished. This is the work of one man. The truth is it's easy for the ISIS to just claim it - but there's just as much of a chance it was a right-winger who wants the immigrants out and just wants to stir public feelings towards asylum seekers. EDIT - wasn't this the week the news broke that only 1 of 300 suspects had been prosecuted for the Cologne sex attacks? hmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastAnglianFox Posted 20 December 2016 Share Posted 20 December 2016 I found the sheer naivety and egotistical actions of Merkel far more frightening than any recent rising of the far right tbh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgfualol Posted 21 December 2016 Share Posted 21 December 2016 17 hours ago, David Guiza said: I find it all very difficult. On the one it is an obvious danger to allow people into your country knowing full well that the open borders are likely to have a damning effect somewhere down the line, such as this. However, I really do dislike the argument of 'not our problem'. I completely understand where the argument comes from. However, and without meaning to sound like John Lennon, we're all just humans at the end of the day. Borders, countries, the economy, etc etc are all man-made constructs that we have imposed upon ourselves. Maybe I'm naive, but for me to turn your back on thousands of desperate human beings fleeing in desperation because there is a chance that one or a few may commit a crime months down the line is wrong. Why are they any less deserving of the opportunities that we're given, simply because they had the unfortunate luck of being born into a war torn country? I'm not so blind that I can't see the problems with immigration and refugees, but to completely wipe your hands of them as they're not 'our problem' is a very sad state of affairs. Also, we (as a nation) are already far too involved too turn out back and not expect repercussion anyway. I also don't buy into the argument that we live in a more dangerous time now than 20/30/40 years ago. The main difference for me is the increase in rolling news, social media etc, access to both good and awful news is far greater than it ever has been. Pretty much this. I have refugees living on my street in Germany and seeing all the children being able to play together on the streets without fear is really great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox92 Posted 21 December 2016 Share Posted 21 December 2016 11 hours ago, bovril said: ISIS will claim anything. They're the David Nugent of international terrorism. Yeah, that's what I meant. Sort of propaganda I guess, just claiming anything to enhance their threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkon84 Posted 21 December 2016 Share Posted 21 December 2016 Well considering ISIS have been encouraging people to drive vehicles in to crowded areas (3 in the last six months now), whether they directly ordered it or not, it seems pretty plain that it's at least inspired by them, so they'll of course claim it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxy boxing Posted 21 December 2016 Share Posted 21 December 2016 we all need to be vigilante while going about our everyday live. it could happen to anyone, anywhere. these people just want to create a sense of panic and fear by targeting ordinary people. clearly defeating these people will not only mean militarily but also their ideology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingcarr21 Posted 21 December 2016 Share Posted 21 December 2016 8 minutes ago, foxy boxing said: we all need to be vigilante while going about our everyday live. it could happen to anyone, anywhere. these people just want to create a sense of panic and fear by targeting ordinary people. clearly defeating these people will not only mean militarily but also their ideology I'm not quite sure taking the law into our own hands is the way forward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 21 December 2016 Share Posted 21 December 2016 33 minutes ago, foxy boxing said: we all need to be vigilante while going about our everyday live. it could happen to anyone, anywhere. these people just want to create a sense of panic and fear by targeting ordinary people. clearly defeating these people will not only mean militarily but also their ideology And your first two sentences calling for CONSTANT VIGILANCE! aren't sourcing panic? If we spend our lives looking over our shoulders then the death worshipping fascists may as well have won already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie1999 Posted 21 December 2016 Share Posted 21 December 2016 18 minutes ago, leicsmac said: And your first two sentences calling for CONSTANT VIGILANCE! aren't sourcing panic? If we spend our lives looking over our shoulders then the death worshipping fascists may as well have won already. I think that when something like this happens in this country and it will eventually, people will be more vigilant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 21 December 2016 Share Posted 21 December 2016 10 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said: I think that when something like this happens in this country and it will eventually, people will be more vigilant. I hope not, they're hardly the first group to try to blow stuff up on British soil and we didn't go all paranoid the previous times. Well, mostly not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie1999 Posted 21 December 2016 Share Posted 21 December 2016 30 minutes ago, leicsmac said: I hope not, they're hardly the first group to try to blow stuff up on British soil and we didn't go all paranoid the previous times. Well, mostly not. Well we were a lot more vigilant then, in London at least. My uncle worked at the mod and used to have to check under his car with a mirror! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barky Posted 21 December 2016 Share Posted 21 December 2016 Surprised that with their being an armed and dangerous person on the run they haven't got any cctv images out yet. You'd think just about every inch of a Christmas market would be covered by cameras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkon84 Posted 21 December 2016 Share Posted 21 December 2016 1 hour ago, Barky said: Surprised that with their being an armed and dangerous person on the run they haven't got any cctv images out yet. You'd think just about every inch of a Christmas market would be covered by cameras. They had the wrong guy originally who's been released but have found personal documents in the cab of the lorry now for a 24 year old Tunisian who they're after, so I'd expect some pictures of him to be released shortly. Still, as you highlighted, you'd have thought there'd be CCTV of him exiting the lorry to escape. Latest on it here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38392128 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barky Posted 21 December 2016 Share Posted 21 December 2016 25 minutes ago, Darkon84 said: They had the wrong guy originally who's been released but have found personal documents in the cab of the lorry now for a 24 year old Tunisian who they're after, so I'd expect some pictures of him to be released shortly. Still, as you highlighted, you'd have thought there'd be CCTV of him exiting the lorry to escape. Latest on it here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38392128 They shouldn't have stopped looking just because they had a suspect though. From what I've read the only reason they arrested the original guy is because a member of the public suspected him (on what basis I don't know, perhaps simply because he was Pakistani) and chased him through a park. The lorry cab was covered in blood but that guy didn't have a speck on him. Shouldn't have taken them long to at least figure out he might be the wrong guy. Now after two days they've finally found an ID card belonging to someone else. Didn't they search the cab to begin with? I don't know, usually a manhunt is all about providing any kind of image of the suspect, warning people not to approach them, putting emergency law in place and completely locking down the area. There we have Christmas markets reopened with an apparently murderous gunman at large somewhere in the area. Just doesn't add up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie1999 Posted 21 December 2016 Share Posted 21 December 2016 2 minutes ago, Barky said: They shouldn't have stopped looking just because they had a suspect though. From what I've read the only reason they arrested the original guy is because a member of the public suspected him (on what basis I don't know, perhaps simply because he was Pakistani) and chased him through a park. The lorry cab was covered in blood but that guy didn't have a speck on him. Shouldn't have taken them long to at least figure out he might not be the wrong guy. Now after two days they've finally found an ID card belonging to someone else. Didn't they search the cab to begin with? I don't know, usually a nationwide manhunt is all about providing any kind of image of the suspect, putting emergency law in place and completely locking down the area. There we have Christmas markets reopened with an apparently murderous gunman at large somewhere in the area. Just doesn't add up. Which seems very strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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