Fox92 Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 Don't know how Hunt still holds his position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parafox Posted 13 January 2017 Author Share Posted 13 January 2017 31 minutes ago, Bryn said: "Entitlement to treatment" is a complex ethical debate. I doubt the founders of the NHS envisaged even half of what the NHS does today. Perhaps if politicians cared less about getting elected and more about honest debate perhaps this something that could be addressed. Any organisation has to have objectives and I don't think the NHS even has that. I'm not going to disclose my own personal views on what treatments I think should and shouldn't be funded, but what if there was broad consensus on the objectives the NHS should strive to achieve free of cost? If perhaps everyone agreed that "The NHS will provide emergency treatment for the preservation of life and limb, free at the point of care"? That covers your acute critical illness, trauma, obstetric emergencies but also probably acute mental health crises where there is a risk of harm to the individual or others. And then the government could identify the cost of that and ensure its provision. Perhaps second would be "The NHS will provide interventions for the preservation of public health for free". This would include screening programs and vaccinations, amongst other things. Eventually it start to get more complex and things might have more debatable priority to some than others. But at least there'd be a conversation. The consensus might be in favour of "The NHS will provide interventions for the diagnosis and treatment of cancer for free" as an objective but also that "Routine appointments for the assessment of minor symptoms will not be provided for free". Under that system "cough" could be declared a minor symptom and the appointment for a cough might incur a fee of say, £50. With a two day history of cough, runny nose and fever with no other adverse signs or symptoms, you'd be sent away with a fifty quid bill and advice to rest. With a three month history of cough and weight loss in a long term smoker, you'd proceed to the diagnosis and treatment of cancer pathway and your xrays and specialist consultations etc. would be free. A decision could be taken on whether or not that £50 would charged or waived; I think the fairest and simplest thing is to not waive it as the subsequent treatment is all free but there'd need to be discussion. It would of course get complex the further you discussed. IVF as an example would be contentious, as you can argue that infertility does not cause further physical health problems in itself. But of course the psychological and ethical arguments go much deeper. But at least you'd have some transparency and understanding of what is and isn't free. The key principles could be enshrined in an NHS "constitution" and the public made aware of how much it costs to provide the most important aspects, and how much extra is needed for extra. All that makes good sense and is obviously from someone at the sharp end of the NHS. What frustrates me so much is that those of us working amongst the crisis can see solutions, or at least ways to make things better. If we can, why can't the politicians, of whom at least one is or has been a doctor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuchsntf Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 Lack of organisation, too many unnecessary disfunctional admins. Too much politics, not enough dedicated to the actual medical issues. Too many chiefs taking too higher wages, the indians the qualified medical staff really not being paid enough, for their hours. Too many holes, not enough qualified nurses at all levels. Too many hrs being worked by the same people>>> everybody <<<. NHS staff having the pss taken out of them. Wages kept down by bringing in too many foreign workers.even top 3rd -4 th generation quality immigrant staff not being payed enough. The politicians have no shame.. Austerity:::::: I am 62, just look at any basic sitcom, soap, old newreels....since the begininning of the 60s we hear nothing from politicians but austerity, strange the society has more money, but we cant pay for our basic services..Health, Education, crime, Housing. The govt at all levels, has and is failing every single person in the UK... Think about this hard ..2016 ..People on trolley beds, not enough GPs, Soup kitchens, waiting lists longer than football season tickets..!!! But they organise hospital car parks to rip you off... Advanced civilisation, I would like to know what that is. I try hard not to be a grumpy ol man, I dont blame the younger generation, but the people who are voted in, take our taxes, take and misuse the funds, and are there to organise at least the basics in our lives.. I cant think of one politician in the last 60yrs , who can stand proud. Their approach and rhetoric to a naturally progress in peoples education and life/society awarenes worldwide, has to change. They are falling well behind the society and electorate needs.They are not creating or allowing, understanding nor knowing what is needed outside their own little minds and world. The UK is living in the past..Oh!! that doesnt mean other countries are better, its a WW virus. They dont realise their discussions and arguments, are falling on deaf ears. Its a proffesion that has stood still, even within its abuse and corruption of misuse of electorate funds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 57 minutes ago, Fox92 said: Don't know how Hunt still holds his position. He was about to go but Theresa Villiers didn't want it so he scraped back in by the skin on his teeth. He's just a useful fall guy for the Tory leadership Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxy boxing Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 It's a national health service not an international health service, it's the NHS not the IHS. there is too much overuse with people going to A&E for something that they can see their GP about.New ways of funding need to be thought about like charging foreigners for use or their country of origin.the system has consistently been abused over the years and has been allowed to by consecutive governments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barky Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 1 hour ago, fuchsntf said: I dont blame the younger generation, I should hope not. This crisis has been brewing for a couple of decades during which it has almost exclusively been managed by people in your generation. This, along with unaffordable housing, unprecedented falls in generational wealth, unprecedented levels of public debt and lower wages for all is your generation's legacy. It would be absolutely absurd for you to try and pin the blame on younger people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB11 Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 3 hours ago, RobHawk said: I'm not saying you are knocking those who need IVF, but why should people pay for that when other treatments are free? My issue with IVF in this conversation is it always the first thing brought up that should be cut when issues with the NHS are discussed - on the news, in the papers and even in this thread. Can't we charge £500 for gastric bands or other treatments - what about alot of the cosmetic type surgeries that still get done on the NHS? I'm not saying any treatment is more or less deserving than IVF from a financial point of view, but why specifically would be charge for that 1, even if it is alot cheaper than going through a private provider? IVF is hardly a treatment it's a choice. You don't need to have children if you're desperate and can't afford it why not adopt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobHawk Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 37 minutes ago, DB11 said: IVF is hardly a treatment it's a choice. You don't need to have children if you're desperate and can't afford it why not adopt. It is a treatment for those who cannot have their own children. Normally this is due to a medical issue/condition. I'll continue to compare what is said to those who have gastic bands (for consistency) as that is also a choice on the basis of what you say, why not exercise and stop eating? What about those who smoke and have smoking related illnesses? Why did you start smoking when you knew it was bad for you? why should you get treatment when you chose to smoke? Its not as simple as you say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB11 Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 22 minutes ago, RobHawk said: It is a treatment for those who cannot have their own children. Normally this is due to a medical issue/condition. I'll continue to compare what is said to those who have gastic bands (for consistency) as that is also a choice on the basis of what you say, why not exercise and stop eating? What about those who smoke and have smoking related illnesses? Why did you start smoking when you knew it was bad for you? why should you get treatment when you chose to smoke? Its not as simple as you say! You shouldn't get treatment for any of those things you've mentioned either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryn Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 There aren't many conditions that aren't in some way contributed to by personal choice, slippery slope really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuchsntf Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 3 hours ago, Barky said: I should hope not. This crisis has been brewing for a couple of decades during which it has almost exclusively been managed by people in your generation. This, along with unaffordable housing, unprecedented falls in generational wealth, unprecedented levels of public debt and lower wages for all is your generation's legacy. It would be absolutely absurd for you to try and pin the blame on younger people. I said I dont blame the younger generation, meaning ANY younger generation, from way then through to now, but authorities and Politician love to drop hints on the publics character, and misuse of services. Smoke n mirrors, any excuse not to anything while in office. There is no generations legacy, the public no matter what age group, are the electorate who have been let down, by people who love to believe there is a generation gap Platform on the NHS issue.. Looks like you took the bite... I was showing my distaste of the media Reporting or pushing statements of the minute mis-use of A +E, by various Groups some pushing towards the elderly, others blaming the Younger generation for other failings. + IF the abuse is so bad in the last 5 or so years, its the job of governing bodies to have seen it coming and react accordingly and stop making pathetic political statements, to win non exsistent points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surrifox Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 Anything that is delivered free at the point of use runs the risk of being undervalued . I have some experience of the administration aspects of the NHS - based upon a very limited area of activity you would be staggered at the number of people booked for procedures ranging from scans to major ops who without any form of excuse fail to attend their appointment . This leaves expensive medical professionals booked and paid for with nothing to do on occasions . Trusts are spending a large amount contacting people to confirm their attendance it's utterly ridiculous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SystonFox Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 5 hours ago, foxy boxing said: It's a national health service not an international health service, it's the NHS not the IHS. there is too much overuse with people going to A&E for something that they can see their GP about.New ways of funding need to be thought about like charging foreigners for use or their country of origin.the system has consistently been abused over the years and has been allowed to by consecutive governments. Yeah it's all them foreign fault coming over here stealing our paracetamol and car parking spots in the new multi storey at lri. wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 5 hours ago, foxy boxing said: It's a national health service not an international health service, it's the NHS not the IHS. there is too much overuse with people going to A&E for something that they can see their GP about.New ways of funding need to be thought about like charging foreigners for use or their country of origin.the system has consistently been abused over the years and has been allowed to by consecutive governments. How about we offset it against the foreigners who keep the bloody thing running day to day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheppyFox Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 We have money for foreign aid though, right? Wouldn't want that jeopardised for the sake of something as irrelevant as the NHS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 11 minutes ago, SystonFox said: Yeah it's all them foreign fault coming over here stealing our paracetamol and car parking spots in the new multi storey at lri. wow Sounds to me like you're one of the 99% who don't have the courage to share his post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 1 minute ago, Facecloth said: How about we offset it against the foreigners who keep the bloody thing running day to day. I 'think' he is talking about health tourists, people not really entitled to it. It does happen, how much I'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 2 minutes ago, Strokes said: I 'think' he is talking about health tourists, people not really entitled to it. It does happen, how much I'm not sure. Well we can't really say it's causing wide spread problems when we don't know how widespread it is. It might be a very small issue. The NHS almost certainly has much bigger issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 1 minute ago, Facecloth said: Well we can't really say it's causing wide spread problems when we don't know how widespread it is. It might be a very small issue. The NHS almost certainly has much bigger issues. I agree, I just interpreted his post different and thought I would stick my nose in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonthefox Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 My wife works for the NHS and in the internal magazine she gets was a job being advertised. A tissue viability consultant. salary ?. £38k a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonthefox Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 I forgot to add. The ward she's in charge of was told all patients must have internet access. So a nice little desktop in the ward ?.no, An iPad for every patient. The NHS gets more than enough funding. Half of it is wasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryn Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 13 minutes ago, jonthefox said: My wife works for the NHS and in the internal magazine she gets was a job being advertised. A tissue viability consultant. salary ?. £38k a year. I'm a bit confused what your point is here? 9 minutes ago, jonthefox said: I forgot to add. The ward she's in charge of was told all patients must have internet access. So a nice little desktop in the ward ?.no, An iPad for every patient. The NHS gets more than enough funding. Half of it is wasted. How many beds on the ward? 20? 30? So a one off £6000 expenditure, plus perhaps a few grand in network costs and additional money to the IT department to service them. An extravagant waste of money? Absolutely yes. Commonplace? Nope. A significant proportion of NHS resources? Not really. This kind of sensationalisation, true or not, doesn't really help. It is a point worth bringing up but to suggest that it means that half of NHS funding is wasted is Daily Mail politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonthefox Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 Just now, Bryn said: I'm a bit confused what your point is here? How many beds on the ward? 20? 30? So a one off £6000 expenditure, plus perhaps a few grand in network costs and additional money to the IT department to service them. An extravagant waste of money? Absolutely yes. Commonplace? Nope. A significant proportion of NHS resources? Not really. That was one ward in a unit of six , in one hospital, in one city. You get the picture I'm sure. The other point you quoted was the nurse. Doesn't paying someone that sort of figure to check the tissues are suitable seem ridiculous?. If you need anymore examples of NHS waste , I have a bag full of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryn Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 1 minute ago, jonthefox said: That was one ward in a unit of six , in one hospital, in one city. You get the picture I'm sure. The other point you quoted was the nurse. Doesn't paying someone that sort of figure to check the tissues are suitable seem ridiculous?. If you need anymore examples of NHS waste , I have a bag full of them. Sorry mate, I don't mean to be a cock but you have to laugh. Tissue viability refers to a clinical nurse specialist, whose sphere of expertise is deep or poor healing wounds. For example, arterial ulcers or diabetic ulcers. It's a senior, specialist nurse role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryn Posted 13 January 2017 Share Posted 13 January 2017 Pressure ulcers too, a huge preventable cause of morbidity and expenditure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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