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filthyfox

lied to by Politicians

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Just now, Sharpe's Fox said:

I could make a long Alf-style post that you seem so fond of but I've found that the majestic Tony Benn expains the issue infinitely better than I ever could, if you have the time:

 

If you feel that the power of your vote is something easy to dismiss as "trolling" in the wake of your misplaced faith in globalism thats up to you. However I'll remind you that the vote is something your ancestors probably fought and died for in a variety of social movements, from the civil war to the trade union movement to the suffragettes. It's someing I take quite seriously.

Well being in the EU didn't mean we no longer had a democracy at home.  This was one of the great fallacies of the debate and one I regularly had to correct people on.  The fact is it's so obviously untrue that the EU stole our democratic rights that I assumed your statement could only have been trolling if it was coming from an informed individual.  Indeed when you look at the level of representation in UK parliament and EU parliament it actually turned out that as a British citizen your vote for your MEP was more directly democratic than your vote for your MP.  If you take your vote so seriously then perhaps you should have held your MEP to as much account as you apparently hold your MPs and we would already have an EU you like and we wouldn't be in this mess.

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13 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

I could make a long Alf-style post that you seem so fond of but I've found that the majestic Tony Benn expains the issue infinitely better than I ever could, if you have the time:

 

If you feel that the power of your vote is something easy to dismiss as "trolling" in the wake of your misplaced faith in globalism thats up to you. However I'll remind you that the vote is something your ancestors probably fought and died for in a variety of social movements, from the civil war to the trade union movement to the suffragettes. It's something I take quite seriously.

He wasn't right about much, but he was spot on there.

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24 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

I dunno, once we lose the foreign nurses and doctors propping our national healthcare system up you may not live long enough to develop it... :whistle:

Why would we lose them, we will get more if anything.

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15 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Well being in the EU didn't mean we no longer had a democracy at home.  This was one of the great fallacies of the debate and one I regularly had to correct people on.  The fact is it's so obviously untrue that the EU stole our democratic rights that I assumed your statement could only have been trolling if it was coming from an informed individual.  Indeed when you look at the level of representation in UK parliament and EU parliament it actually turned out that as a British citizen your vote for your MEP was more directly democratic than your vote for your MP.  If you take your vote so seriously then perhaps you should have held your MEP to as much account as you apparently hold your MPs and we would already have an EU you like and we wouldn't be in this mess.

No MEP can submit or amend legislation so no EU treaty change would be a result from any action from any MEP. And as Tony explained you don't vote for any candidate in an European election, you vote for a party, so another democratic deficiency in the European federal system there.

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4 minutes ago, Nalis said:

Not sure if politics is more ****ed now or if we we are now just less naive and have more access to information.

We have more access to information and less people willing to make use of that access.  Life's easier if you blindly believe the person who seems most like a 'normal bloke' and less like a professional apparently (see: Farage, N; Trump, D; Johnson, B).

 

1 minute ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

No MEP can submit or amend legislation so no EU treaty change would be a result from any action from any MEP. And as Tony explained you don't vote for any candidate in an European election, you vote for a party, so another democratic deficiency in the European federal system there.

2543-infographic-2.jpg

Yep EU parliament has nothing to do with the legislative process.

And to be more accurate you're voting for a list of candidates put forward by each party so in effect you are basing your vote on candidates but you can also choose to vote based on party loyalty too if you so wish.

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3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yep. And what they want is what benefits them specifically and directly, in the short term only.

As opposed to what? You think they should vote for things that don't benefit them?

 

PS Jump in Matt, we can see you lurking.

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5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

As opposed to what? You think they should vote for things that don't benefit them?

I think they should vote however they please, but then not bleat about it and accept responsibility when long term consequences come to bite them.

 

Self-interest doesn't mesh well with seriously long-term decision making - that's human (animal) nature. Again, this doesn't really apply to most political decision making but the bits it does apply to are ultra important.

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21 minutes ago, Nalis said:

Not sure if politics is more ****ed now or if we we are now just less naive and have more access to information.

 

Yes and no...

 

Politics is getting to a wider audience and there's more public participation which is a good thing in general... but it seems as a result ideas and policies have been watered down and much more short term to appeal on a broader and immediate level. 

 

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1 hour ago, Emilio Lestavez said:

Trouble is unless they're held to account for their bullshit they'll never stop. 

 

Yet advertising standards seemingly doesn't apply to political campaigns.

So Blair sanctions the killing/maiming of thousands over non-existent weapons of mass destruction (not to mention the astronomical cost), Brown sells a big chunk of the UK's gold for peanuts and you're bothered about a bit of tax and National Insurance.  I've dabbled in politics and its so shitty with people on the make for their own ends I couldn't be arsed with it all. The wonder is that anyone votes at all really.   

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Just now, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Yes and no...

 

Politics is getting to a wider audience and there's more public participation which is a good thing in general... but it seems as a result ideas and policies have been watered down and much more short term to appeal on a broader and immediate level. 

 

Agreed. I think we only need ask Mr Cameron how this sort of approach works out

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1 minute ago, Thracian said:

So Blair sanctions the killing/maiming of thousands over non-existent weapons of mass destruction (not to mention the astronomical cost), Brown sells a big chunk of the UK's gold for peanuts and you're bothered about a bit of tax and National Insurance.  I've dabbled in politics and its so shitty with people on the make for their own ends I couldn't be arsed with it all. The wonder is that anyone votes at all really.   

Now that would be interesting.

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1 minute ago, Thracian said:

So Blair sanctions the killing/maiming of thousands over non-existent weapons of mass destruction (not to mention the astronomical cost), Brown sells a big chunk of the UK's gold for peanuts and you're bothered about a bit of tax and National Insurance.  I've dabbled in politics and its so shitty with people on the make for their own ends I couldn't be arsed with it all. The wonder is that anyone votes at all really.   

I'm bothered about both of those issues but you carry on with your deluded little paranoid fantasies if you like and just keep throwing ill founded accusations at people all you like. You'd probably do well in politics these days with that approach.

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9 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

2543-infographic-2.jpg

 

You think an arrow on a graphic will change reality? Look at the facts, the 28 unelected commissioners have the sole power to propose legislation, it even says with the black dotted line so on your graphic. The parliament can suggest amendments to said legislation but the decision to include the amendments rests, once again, solely with the commission. You show no understanding of the "democracy" you so want to be part of, hell even many part of it don't understand it, and if that's not an argument to leave it I don't know what is.

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Just now, Emilio Lestavez said:

Agreed. I think we only need ask Mr Cameron how this sort of approach works out

 

Don't forget Mr Osborne, who probably helped write the manifesto pledge, which subsequently Hammond has arguably broken with the NINO increase. 

 

Having take a closer interest in politics over the last few years, I have seen things move to almost a game state for the two main parties, especially around Brexit - there seems to be less conviction politicians, those who find a cause and champion it through to law and that disappoints me.

 

The only reassurance I have is that the Lords seem to be in fairly good order at present.

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For me the EU was/is too big and too remote, big has been tried in many areas and fails in many areas particularly in the area of politics and culture  that's why we have Scottish, Welsh and NI devolution, why there is demand for the Northern and Midlands Powerhouses and more local democracy.

 

The EU is seen as distant and foreign (strange) run by faceless power hungry politocrats to many people.

 

Th EU might be acceptable as a trade/commercial grouping as the original  was but it's gone way, way beyond that and looked like it was going even further.

 

The World is not ready to be a homogeneous peoples which is what many in control of the EU want.

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Just now, Sharpe's Fox said:

You think an arrow on a graphic will change reality? Look at the facts, the 28 unelected commissioners have the sole power to propose legislation, it even says with the black dotted line so on your graphic. The parliament can suggest amendments to said legislation but the decision to include the amendments rests, once again, solely with the commission. You show no understanding of the "democracy" you so want to be part of, hell even many part of it don't understand it, and if that's not an argument to leave it I don't know what is.

Almost right.  The Commission proposes legislation (often based on discussions previously had in parliament) and then the Parliament and Council vote whether to pass it or send it back for alterations or complete rejection.  You seem to understand this to some extent and yet you seem to have dismissed the idea that a law the Parliament disagrees with won't get passed, choosing instead to believe a more sensationalist version of reality where, what, the Commission keeps proposing laws nobody agrees with until they get their way?  I'm not actually sure what you think the reality is but having the sole ability to propose law doesn't mean they wield some kind of authoritarian hammer unless you're suggesting both the Council and Parliament are in the Commission's pocket.

 

But thanks for assuming I don't know how things work because your personal bias leads you to misinterpret reality.

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1 hour ago, Emilio Lestavez said:

Trouble is unless they're held to account for their bullshit they'll never stop. 

 

Yet advertising standards seemingly doesn't apply to political campaigns.

If the NHS were a proper business it would have shut down years ago. And how you can talk about political campaigns given the politics that rages inside the NHS I don't know.  There's so much moralising about the NHS yet so much advantage taken by all and sundry.It's a corrupt, self-protecting, highly wasteful cash cow that some would spend the entire GDP on if they could yet those same people wouldn't dream of cutting unnecessary costs. .  

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1 hour ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

I could make a long Alf-style post that you seem so fond of but I've found that the majestic Tony Benn expains the issue infinitely better than I ever could, if you have the time:

 

If you feel that the power of your vote is something easy to dismiss as "trolling" in the wake of your misplaced faith in globalism thats up to you. However I'll remind you that the vote is something your ancestors probably fought and died for in a variety of social movements, from the civil war to the trade union movement to the suffragettes. It's something I take quite seriously.

How we miss politicians like Tony Benn. He's so right on Europe but even if he wasn't he's always worth listening to.    

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17 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Almost right.  The Commission proposes legislation (often based on discussions previously had in parliament) and then the Parliament and Council vote whether to pass it or send it back for alterations or complete rejection.

No not almost right, completely right. Any hypothetical situation you suggest does nothing to change the fact that no one directly elected has any real legislative power within the EU. You seem to have resorted to agreeing with me but taking exception to the language used.

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