bovril Posted 8 March 2017 Share Posted 8 March 2017 31 minutes ago, davieG said: For me the EU was/is too big and too remote, big has been tried in many areas and fails in many areas particularly in the area of politics and culture that's why we have Scottish, Welsh and NI devolution, why there is demand for the Northern and Midlands Powerhouses and more local democracy. The EU is seen as distant and foreign (strange) run by faceless power hungry politocrats to many people. Th EU might be acceptable as a trade/commercial grouping as the original was but it's gone way, way beyond that and looked like it was going even further. The World is not ready to be a homogeneous peoples which is what many in control of the EU want. More or less I agree with this. If countries like Spain and the UK have issues with parts wanting to secede, what chance the EU? However, I don't agree the end always justfies the means. I have no idea whether or not Brexit will be a success, I know fvck all about economics, but I think Brexit is a distraction from the massive discontent and division that exists in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 8 March 2017 Share Posted 8 March 2017 17 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said: No not almost right, completely right. Any hypothetical situation you suggest does nothing to change the fact that no one directly elected has any real legislative power within the EU. You seem to have resorted to agreeing with me but taking exception to the language used. No. I happen to have noticed that laws can't pass without approval of the Council or the Parliament. Both of these bodies' members are directly voted by citizens of the EU's member states. The Commission has full power of proposal, that is to say their purpose is to draft legislation, not impose it. The ability to tell the lawmakers "no, that's a terrible law, write it this way instead" is pretty much the opposite of the vacuum of legislative power that you believe them to be standing in. Your interpretation of reality regarding the EU's functions is severely distorted, until you have evidence to back up your claims please stop making out like there's some legislative dictatorship when all the evidence currently provided says otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 8 March 2017 Share Posted 8 March 2017 2 hours ago, Webbo said: The NI thing, fair enough, but nobody promised anything about £50million a day to the NHS as they were not the govt and had no power to promise anything and we haven't left yet so the money isn't there to give yet anyway. You sound just like a politician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacedX Posted 8 March 2017 Share Posted 8 March 2017 1 hour ago, Voll Blau said: The public gets what the public wants... In which case I'm going underground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted 8 March 2017 Share Posted 8 March 2017 4 hours ago, Matt said: Congratulations on this discovery. In other news water is wet. ..fire is hot and ice is cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 9 March 2017 Share Posted 9 March 2017 Things change. I don't understand why you would expect something said years ago based on a set of assumptions to stay the same when those assumptions change. I am not self employed, so don't really care about them paying more NI, and to be honest I dont see why they should pay less? No doubt this will piss off a lot of BBC employees who all seem to be on these arrangements - and that HAS to be a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 9 March 2017 Share Posted 9 March 2017 6 hours ago, Carl the Llama said: No. I happen to have noticed that laws can't pass without approval of the Council or the Parliament. Both of these bodies' members are directly voted by citizens of the EU's member states. The Commission has full power of proposal, that is to say their purpose is to draft legislation, not impose it. The ability to tell the lawmakers "no, that's a terrible law, write it this way instead" is pretty much the opposite of the vacuum of legislative power that you believe them to be standing in. Your interpretation of reality regarding the EU's functions is severely distorted, until you have evidence to back up your claims please stop making out like there's some legislative dictatorship when all the evidence currently provided says otherwise. Do you believe that those in charge of the EU, including a lot of our fellow members, believe in a future federal European Superstate, with common taxes, an army and the like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgfualol Posted 9 March 2017 Share Posted 9 March 2017 15 hours ago, filthyfox said: 1) 50m pounds per day extra for the NHS if we leave Eu rope If anything, I expect money for the NHS to continue to dwindle, brexit or not. It's clear what the conservatives want to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 9 March 2017 Share Posted 9 March 2017 15 minutes ago, lgfualol said: If anything, I expect money for the NHS to continue to dwindle, brexit or not. It's clear what the conservatives want to do with it. You know all these people that complain about the government not giving enough money to NHS, why don't you just donate to them and bypass the government? It's easy enough to do, or do you actually not care as much as you claim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgfualol Posted 9 March 2017 Share Posted 9 March 2017 1 minute ago, Strokes said: You know all these people that complain about the government not giving enough money to NHS, why don't you just donate to them and bypass the government? It's easy enough to do, or do you actually not care as much as you claim? Do you think I'm a millionaire or something? I have donated towards NHS foundations with what I can before, but I'm sorry to tell you that I do not have the money to fix the NHS. I guess that means I don't care that much after all - better stop posting about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 9 March 2017 Share Posted 9 March 2017 1 minute ago, lgfualol said: Do you think I'm a millionaire or something? I have donated towards NHS foundations with what I can before, but I'm sorry to tell you that I do not have the money to fix the NHS. I guess that means I don't care that much after all - better stop posting about it. You don't have to be a millionaire, so long as there is enough like minded people willing to prop up the white elephant (which there aren't). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 9 March 2017 Share Posted 9 March 2017 You mean make it private for those that can afford it and so they will be first in the queue for treatment? Is that why the NHS was set up? As to the thread topic all I can say is no shit Sherlock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 9 March 2017 Share Posted 9 March 2017 7 hours ago, Jon the Hat said: Do you believe that those in charge of the EU, including a lot of our fellow members, believe in a future federal European Superstate, with common taxes, an army and the like? I'd say that's the utopian ideal at the back of certain peoples' minds, yes. Unless you're partial to the NWO lizard people conspiracy theories and believe it's going to end with humanity under an alien race's thumb I'm not sure why people having ideals like that is so scary, surely we should all want to get along? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 9 March 2017 Share Posted 9 March 2017 8 hours ago, Jon the Hat said: Things change. I don't understand why you would expect something said years ago based on a set of assumptions to stay the same when those assumptions change. I am not self employed, so don't really care about them paying more NI, and to be honest I dont see why they should pay less? No doubt this will piss off a lot of BBC employees who all seem to be on these arrangements - and that HAS to be a good thing. Jon - the items raised were a rather major campaign slogan and a point in the Conservative Party Manifesto from the last election, so neither are that old. You can argue the toss over whether the government promised the £350 million figure to the NHS and whether technically they haven't broken the NINO rule they set themselves, but to suggest these are items said 'years' ago is disingenuine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 9 March 2017 Share Posted 9 March 2017 1 hour ago, Rincewind said: You mean make it private for those that can afford it and so they will be first in the queue for treatment? Is that why the NHS was set up? As to the thread topic all I can say is no shit Sherlock. I dont think it needs to go that far but whilst the NHS is offering cosmetics surgery or IVA treatments, I cant help but think it gets too much money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 9 March 2017 Share Posted 9 March 2017 Maybe. Can't see many people who struggle with money wanting cosmetic surgery. (although there will be some of course) Been to the local clinic today for a AAA scan. Takes less than 10 mins and available free to over 65's. I wonder what that costs? Not that I would be willing to pay for it but am grateful we have the NHS. As it is something that is not picked up without a scan how many people would not go for it if they had to pay? I expect the doctor doing the scan is at the clinic for the day so will test a few people. Mine was normal BTW so I won't need another scan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie1999 Posted 9 March 2017 Share Posted 9 March 2017 Apparently since the new rules on state pensions were introduced, a self employed worker can claim a full state pension, but get away with only paying £2.80 a week NIC while the rest of us have to pay 12% of our earnings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 9 March 2017 Share Posted 9 March 2017 The government has got itself in a very awkward position here. On the one side, I think the move on NICS is probably correct and sensible policy, even if it would potentially negatively effect a significant portion of people. For one it does seems a fair few bigger umbrella companies are taking the piss out of self employment criteria by moving a lot of its risk/costs onto the employee in return for a slight pay increase - but additionally the growing proportion of work force employed this way threatens the stability of tax receipts. However, if you're stupid enough to not only declare "No NINO rises" in your manifesto, but then legislate these parts as well, then go against this you can't be suprised by the many cries of so "Foul" - and given that a number of their own party MP's have been very quick to do this (in some respects quicker than Corbyn!) including their chief whip I believe it's clear a backdown of some sort will happen now. May has now suggested nothing firm will be decided in legislation terms until the Autumn... which sounds like a small initial concession to try and buy breathing room, but I'm not sure that's going to work for the short term so we should expect a dead cat to appear soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGEROUS TIGER Posted 10 March 2017 Share Posted 10 March 2017 On 08/03/2017 at 17:43, Webbo said: The NI thing, fair enough, but nobody promised anything about £50million a day to the NHS as they were not the govt and had no power to promise anything and we haven't left yet so the money isn't there to give yet anyway. Exactly .Some people need to get their facts right before spouting off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Guy In The Room Posted 10 March 2017 Share Posted 10 March 2017 50 minutes ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said: Exactly .Some people need to get their facts right before spouting off. B b b b b b b b b but there was a bus??!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 10 March 2017 Share Posted 10 March 2017 It's not about whether the writing on the bus was actually a promise, it was whether some people believed it was. And judging by the reaction of some people when they discovered it wouldn't happen plenty did. It was purposely misleading. Just because most of us are clued up enough to know it wasn't a promise from the government doesn't mean others weren't. Assuming everyone voted the same way as you for the same reasons as you is a daft as claiming everyone who voted Brexit did so because they're racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 10 March 2017 Share Posted 10 March 2017 4 minutes ago, Facecloth said: It's not about whether the writing on the bus was actually a promise, it was whether some people believed it was. And judging by the reaction of some people when they discovered it wouldn't happen plenty did. It was purposely misleading. Just because most of us are clued up enough to know it wasn't a promise from the government doesn't mean others weren't. Assuming everyone voted the same way as you for the same reasons as you is a daft as claiming everyone who voted Brexit did so because they're racist. Nobody believed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 10 March 2017 Share Posted 10 March 2017 1 minute ago, Strokes said: Nobody believed it. Opening poster did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 10 March 2017 Share Posted 10 March 2017 1 minute ago, Facecloth said: Opening poster did But did he? And did he vote based on it? Sorry I'm not buying it. I bet you it's just another bitter remainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 10 March 2017 Share Posted 10 March 2017 Love the dissonance here... "the lie was so obviously a lie it doesn't matter". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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