Did we keep the receipt for Musa?

[The Guvnor]

On ‎19‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 23:42, Royston. said:

what good would the receipt be?

 

they never let you return pants anyway.

 

Especially when they've been used

[Kitchandro]

12 hours ago, ealingfox said:

 

If I was saying that then I would have said it.

 

My point was two-fold and pretty obvious I thought but I'll take you through it - firstly that you're either a tosser, or a child, or both, for literally trying to call out our fans for trying to stick up for one of our own players, one who seems like a decent young guy making an honest effort, and give him the benefit of the doubt during a problematic season for him.

 

Secondly, that things can change can football. This season he's been playing under a gaffer who'd lost the plot. He's not played in his best position all season. He has made positive contributions in games this season. He's 24. He's not much use for more than short sub cameos at the moment.

 

Football is complicated. You shouldn't just be binning players because they aren't an instant hit. The bloke has played nearly 200 club games and dozens of international caps. I don't think it's quite as simple as 'he can't control a football, he's shit, get rid'. I'm pretty sure somebody would have noticed before now if that were the case.

You need to stop clutching at straws. If you think Musa has the potential to be a success here then you haven't been watching him properly.

 

Your point is essentially that a player can improve. That is an extremely flimsy argument which could be used for any player no matter how shit they are. This is an extreme example of that.

 

We aren't in the business of giving players numerous chances any more than we're in the business of giving managers chances when we're in a relegation fight even if they've won the league the previous season. Sticking up for a players' ability when it's clear he isn't good enough for us is not clever or noble, it's stupid.

 

We got rid of Ranieri for the good of the club, despite the fact he had shown more than potential, he'd actually done wonderful things for us. Musa has done neither so why on earth should we persist with him?

 

 

[Guest MattP]

Looking at his stats let alone his football you have to wonder why we forked out this amount of money.

 

He's not been prolific at any level except the Nigerian league, his best stuff was at Moscow where it was one goal and three and at International level it's one in six.

 

Total cock up up all round.

[Babylon]

7 minutes ago, Kitchandro said:

You need to stop clutching at straws. If you think Musa has the potential to be a success here then you haven't been watching him properly.

 

Your point is essentially that a player can improve. That is an extremely flimsy argument which could be used for any player no matter how shit they are. This is an extreme example of that.

 

We aren't in the business of giving players numerous chances any more than we're in the business of giving managers chances when we're in a relegation fight even if they've won the league the previous season. Sticking up for a players' ability when it's clear he isn't good enough for us is not clever or noble, it's stupid.

 

We got rid of Ranieri for the good of the club, despite the fact he had shown more than potential, he'd actually done wonderful things for us. Musa has done neither so why on earth should we persist with him?

 

 

How on earth can you compare Ranieri and Musa. Ranieri was sacked because it was as clear as day he wasn't getting anywhere close to the best from 20+ players this season. It hasn't just been Musa, or Slimani, or Mendy, it has been pretty much every single player to a man. You could use the search function and find a thread calling for pretty much every single player to be dropped, or that they were finished, or never been good enough.... and that's players who performed very well for at least a season previously and some a season and a half.

 

It's basic common sense, that if consistent performers like Fuchs, Vardy, Drinkwater etc have been performing like muck... then someone coming to a new team, new league and new country, could be affected why whatever made their performances drop. On top of all the issues that foreigners can face coming here.

 

This isn't championship manager where you just flog a player after a few games and don't care because it's just a game and not real money. This is actually real life, with huge investments on the line in players, not only in fees but also wages.

 

If there is a mere hint of their performances being affected by other factors, then this club should be duty bound to be absolutely sure whether that was the reason or not before writing off huge losses on players. It hasn't just been a hint though, the results and improved performances from all the players are absolutely glaring and for that reason alone they should all be judged from this moment onwards.

 

It's not going to fix problems with peoples game entirely, but we've seen what a bit more motivation, effort and being used correctly has done for the other players. Anything close to a similar upturn in form for Musa, Slimani etc and they can become more than useful players here.

 

[Guest MattP]

6 minutes ago, Babylon said:

It's not going to fix problems with peoples game entirely, but we've seen what a bit more motivation, effort and being used correctly has done for the other players. Anything close to a similar upturn in form for Musa, Slimani etc and they can become more than useful players here.

I hope you are right obviously, but I don't know how we are going to find ways to motivate a player who can't even be bothered to stick his leg out to block crosses when he's been unjustly selected in a Champions League knock out match.

 

Unfortunately I think for the first time in years we signed not just some average players in the summer, but ones who are "the wrong sort" when it comes to what they want from the game.

Edited 22 March 2017 by MattP

[Babylon]

Just now, MattP said:

I hope you are right obviously, but I don't know how we are going to find ways to motivate a player who can't even be bothered to stick his leg to block crosses when he's been unjustly selected in a Champions League knock out match.

 

Unfortunately I think for the first time in years we signed not just some average players in the summer, but ones who are "the wrong sort" when it comes to what they want from the game.

Was our tactic in both games not to drive them wide, encourage the cross and then deal with it? Could he have done better, yes. But I'd had no issues with his defending previously and said so pre match. Can't remember if it was Palace or Swansea at home but he performed really well down the left tracking back and defending, his defensive stats were far superior to those of Gray last time I checked. People seem to have an issue because of that one incident and the commentators saying he didn't have a defensive bone in his body, when I'd see different previously. We also don't know what his instructions were.

 

I've not been thrilled with many of the new guys performances, but I've seen flashes from all of them that suggest none of them are a total lost cause. Certainly when you consider what's gone on with everyone else. My biggest issue with all of them is where they actually fit in to our current style of play... it almost feels like they were all purchased for a different formation.

[Koke]

I'm fine with giving players chances. But being incapable of controlling a basic pass and having no football brain is the problem. Is his touch gonna improve next season? Is he gonna produce more brain cells next season? I accept players struggle in this league but surely as a PL footballer you gotta be able to do the simple things right. That's why I was more than willing to give Luis Hernandez time because he could actually control and pass a football. 

[Babylon]

37 minutes ago, Koke said:

I'm fine with giving players chances. But being incapable of controlling a basic pass and having no football brain is the problem. Is his touch gonna improve next season? Is he gonna produce more brain cells next season? I accept players struggle in this league but surely as a PL footballer you gotta be able to do the simple things right. That's why I was more than willing to give Luis Hernandez time because he could actually control and pass a football. 

He can control a basic pass, it's nonsense to suggest otherwise because he just can. The issue is, like Slimani he's inconsistent and when it's bad, it's REALLY bad. That tends to stand out and gets latched onto. Can't remember the game off the top of my head, but I was watching him carefully and there was no issue with him controlling and passing a ball off... then he had one horrendous touch, then made a poor decision soon afterwards and he got ripped a new arsehole on here "he can't control it", "he's not got a brain" etc. It was almost like the previous 30 minutes of perfectly fine control and passing stopped existing.

 

The same happened with Mendy at Millwall, I thought he'd been knocking it about quite well, he does 2 or 3 poor passes in close succession and everyone is on his back saying he can't pass, despite before and after thant he'd knocked it around quite comfortably.

 

His touch will always be inconsistent, but his decision making should get better with a bit of confidence. Most of his poor decisions looked like someone so scared to make a mistake he just wanted rid of the ball... which is what most of our players were like up until Liverpool. We're not seeing the player that picked up the ball and was happy to run at Barcelona, he can clearly do that and cause people problems, so we need to try and bring that out of him. 

 

[AKCJ]

I wouldn't sell him in the summer unless an offer of about 10m plus came in.

 

I think he's got more to offer. There was a few games around the time of the Palace game in which he scored where I thought he looked good because he had a run in the side. He was taking players on and what not.

 

I think he's got what it takes to be a decent enough player. He's one of the most unconfident footballers I've ever seen though. Get the feeling he needs an arm around his shoulder from some of the players and staff. Seems to me like he's not really anyone's mate.

[Guest CityFan 06]

49 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

I wouldn't sell him in the summer unless an offer of about 10m plus came in.

 

I think he's got more to offer. There was a few games around the time of the Palace game in which he scored where I thought he looked good because he had a run in the side. He was taking players on and what not.

 

I think he's got what it takes to be a decent enough player. He's one of the most unconfident footballers I've ever seen though. Get the feeling he needs an arm around his shoulder from some of the players and staff. Seems to me like he's not really anyone's mate.

Very good post and you summarise my thoughts well. I too think he has a lot to offer but seems really low on confidence. 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

It was Palace.  And he was really good in that game and opened the scoring with a decent goal.   People always seem to forget that game.

I'm a bit bored of hearing Musa is shit.  Has won us a game or two when we werent deserving to win anything.  Has come into a confused team and still managed to show glimpses.  Tottenham also, got us the goal and a much needed point away. Everton away, both goals in first away win of the season.

People saying he's shit and get rid are a bit depressing.  Its not like he will be started against Athletico.  Makes me glad we dont have the fan-democracy those deluded chaps from Arsenal TV would like for their club

Edited 22 March 2017 by AlloverthefloorYesNdidi

[lgfualol]

1 hour ago, AKCJ said:

I wouldn't sell him in the summer unless an offer of about 10m plus came in.

 

I think he's got more to offer. There was a few games around the time of the Palace game in which he scored where I thought he looked good because he had a run in the side. He was taking players on and what not.

 

I think he's got what it takes to be a decent enough player. He's one of the most unconfident footballers I've ever seen though. Get the feeling he needs an arm around his shoulder from some of the players and staff. Seems to me like he's not really anyone's mate.

Agreed. Not sure the whole story about the players going to the owners after he started against Sevilla instead of Gray helped much either, even though it was bullshit. Hopefully Ndidi being around and someone helping him will help. At the start of the season he was scary fast and took on people without thinking about it, but now he looks scared of the ball. 

[AKCJ]

Just now, lgfualol said:

Agreed. Not sure the whole story about the players going to the owners after he started against Sevilla instead of Gray helped much either, even though it was bullshit. Hopefully Ndidi being around and someone helping him will help. At the start of the season he was scary fast and took on people without thinking about it, but now he looks scared of the ball. 

He skinned Bellerin (Arsenal fans reckon he'd give Bolt a race) for pace on his home debut.

 

He doesn't do that anymore.

[FoxonMaui]

Think his only chance is to learn from Vards. He needs to learn how to play off the shoulder of the last defender, then potentially his pace could be devastating. If he could get that role down imagine Vards trotting off at the 75 to 80 minute mark and Musa facing some very tired central defenders!! This guy is never going to be an effective winger in this team. Needs to bulk up and toughen up to make it in the Prem. I agree with the poster that perhaps Shakey got the double sunstitution wrong against Wham, in that Musa should have been pushed forward onto their back line and Slim played deeper. I get what Shakey was doing in trying to continue to press their back three with the hope we could shut down the game. Gutsy decision , liked it but think it needed them being in reversed roles.

[NotTheMarketLeader]

On 22/03/2017 at 09:26, Babylon said:

How on earth can you compare Ranieri and Musa. Ranieri was sacked because it was as clear as day he wasn't getting anywhere close to the best from 20+ players this season. It hasn't just been Musa, or Slimani, or Mendy, it has been pretty much every single player to a man. You could use the search function and find a thread calling for pretty much every single player to be dropped, or that they were finished, or never been good enough.... and that's players who performed very well for at least a season previously and some a season and a half.

 

It's basic common sense, that if consistent performers like Fuchs, Vardy, Drinkwater etc have been performing like muck... then someone coming to a new team, new league and new country, could be affected why whatever made their performances drop. On top of all the issues that foreigners can face coming here.

 

This isn't championship manager where you just flog a player after a few games and don't care because it's just a game and not real money. This is actually real life, with huge investments on the line in players, not only in fees but also wages.

 

If there is a mere hint of their performances being affected by other factors, then this club should be duty bound to be absolutely sure whether that was the reason or not before writing off huge losses on players. It hasn't just been a hint though, the results and improved performances from all the players are absolutely glaring and for that reason alone they should all be judged from this moment onwards.

 

It's not going to fix problems with peoples game entirely, but we've seen what a bit more motivation, effort and being used correctly has done for the other players. Anything close to a similar upturn in form for Musa, Slimani etc and they can become more than useful players here.

 

That's all well and good, but I'll ask you the same questions I have put to a another poster, who like you believes he has not been hopeless on the whole.

 

Would you now select him for first team duty? 

 

If so who would he replace? 

 

(If yes is the answer, to the first question I will think you are mad btw). 

 

If the answer is no, you wouldn't - I don't understand why you and others decry the opinion of people who, based on what we have seen, believe this guy is not up to the task.

 

As the last few months have shown, there can be no passengers in the PL,  and I don't see the benefit, given the club we are now, in persisting with people who have not proven themselves to be of sufficient quality. 

 

The 'they need time' retort does not wash with me, we are no longer mid table Championship where finishing 7th or 15th makes no difference, so we can give people time.

 

If he cant hack it, move him on - some other club may disagree with me and pay a reasonable fee.

 

Edited 23 March 2017 by NotTheMarketLeader

[Babylon]

47 minutes ago, NotTheMarketLeader said:

That's all well and good, but I'll ask you the same questions I have put to a another poster, who like you believes he has not been hopeless on the whole.

Lets get this right, the only thing I've done is say there have been times when he has actually done ok. I've also been pretty clear there have been plenty of times that he's been woeful. I've posted one game above where he created three clear cut chances. That was posted to counter the nonsense that gets put on here where people clearly go over the top.

 

47 minutes ago, NotTheMarketLeader said:

Would you now select him for first team duty?

Why would I drop someone now they are performing well? If you want to rewind a few games though where Mahrez, Albrighton, Vardy were performing equally as poorly, yeah I'd have dropped them and tried him. But I doubt it would have done much good as we were playing under someone who clearly couldn't get the best out of them anymore.

 

47 minutes ago, NotTheMarketLeader said:

If the answer is no, you wouldn't - I don't understand why you and others decry the opinion of people who, based on what we have seen, believe this guy is not up to the task.

Firstly, nobody has an issue with people fairly discussing how he's played, no matter how badly. What people have a problem with is someone being written off. Every single player was performing badly, clearly affected by either Ranieri and his poor tactics, or by the fact nobody believed in him any more and they didn't want to play for him. If proven performers are playing like dog muck, then it's basic common sense that Musa could also have been affected by exactly the same things. That's undeniable.

 

47 minutes ago, NotTheMarketLeader said:

As the last few months have shown, there can be no passengers in the PL,  and I don't see the benefit, given the club we are now, in persisting with people who have not proven themselves to be of sufficient quality.

As the last few months have shown, have they? That's really what you've taken away from the last few months and not just bad management. Our usually performing players were absolute muck all season, clearly this season has been nothing to do with "passengers", but something else entirely.

 

As for "proven", if you want to base your entire opinion on players based around a period where nobody proved themselves. Then that's up to you, but it's not your money and it's not your investment on the line. The club, on the other hand will want to be sure and anyone with any logical thought will notice how bad everyone had been playing and not just the new signings.

 

47 minutes ago, NotTheMarketLeader said:

The 'they need time' retort does not wash with me, we are no longer mid table Championship where finishing 7th or 15th makes no difference, so we can give people time.

Why can't we give people time?

 

There will be other holes coming up in the squad this summer that can be filled with new players should we wish to. Should we have sold DD because he didn't perform the first season in the prem, or Vardy until the last run of games... remember people being happy to sell him to West Brom? We gave them time, there was no need to rush to flog them off, just as there isn't now.

 

Selling at a massive loss and paying half his wages for another three years would be the very last option and not the one you taken when there is massive question mark sat above everyone's heads about why they were under performing.

Edited 23 March 2017 by Babylon

[Finnegan]

Pretty sure the only people defending Musa are the sort that would insist Bin Laden "wasn't that bad" if he got a bit of flak on foxestalk.

[Babylon]

9 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

Pretty sure the only people defending Musa are the sort that would insist Bin Laden "wasn't that bad" if he got a bit of flak on foxestalk.

Yeah course they are... thanks for your contribution.

[Finnegan]

16 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Yeah course they are... thanks for your contribution.

 

You're welcome, Babs.

[ZeGuy]

Only player who has TWO dedicated threads slagging him off. LOL.

[murphy]

1 hour ago, NotTheMarketLeader said:

That's all well and good, but I'll ask you the same questions I have put to a another poster, who like you believes he has not been hopeless on the whole.

 

Would you now select him for first team duty? 

 

If so who would he replace? 

 

(If yes is the answer, to the first question I will think you are mad btw). 

 

If the answer is no, you wouldn't - I don't understand why you and others decry the opinion of people who, based on what we have seen, believe this guy is not up to the task.

 

As the last few months have shown, there can be no passengers in the PL,  and I don't see the benefit, given the club we are now, in persisting with people who have not proven themselves to be of sufficient quality. 

 

The 'they need time' retort does not wash with me, we are no longer mid table Championship where finishing 7th or 15th makes no difference, so we can give people time.

 

If he cant hack it, move him on - some other club may disagree with me and pay a reasonable fee.

 

The truth is that he has already had a good deal of time.  We heard the same argument about Shinji last year.  Now some people love him cus he smiles a lot, but has he improved at all towards the end of his second season?  I would say he is the same player he was last year.

 

I remember when we used to recruit from the lower leagues?  Take O'Neill's team.  Elliott from Oxford, Lennon & Savage from Crewe, Guppy from Port Vale, Claridge from Birmingham etc.  They went straight into a premier league team without having to have years of time to adapt.  It's called doing your homework.

 

We have managed to spend 60mn on three players that haven't improved the team.  I don't think we can afford to have that much money sitting on the bench whilst we wait and hope that the ugly ducklings become swans.  That money needs to be recouped as much as possible and reinvested in players that will improve the team and fit our style.

 

 

[sphericalfox]

On 3/22/2017 at 09:41, Babylon said:

Was our tactic in both games not to drive them wide, encourage the cross and then deal with it? Could he have done better, yes. But I'd had no issues with his defending previously and said so pre match. Can't remember if it was Palace or Swansea at home but he performed really well down the left tracking back and defending, his defensive stats were far superior to those of Gray last time I checked. People seem to have an issue because of that one incident and the commentators saying he didn't have a defensive bone in his body, when I'd see different previously. We also don't know what his instructions were.

 

I've not been thrilled with many of the new guys performances, but I've seen flashes from all of them that suggest none of them are a total lost cause. Certainly when you consider what's gone on with everyone else. My biggest issue with all of them is where they actually fit in to our current style of play... it almost feels like they were all purchased for a different formation.

 

i think they possibly were. They maybe were to brought in to give us something more than Option A. Don't get me wrong when Option A is good and works, it's great, but it can be managed against a quality team. We need something else. Unfortunately it would seem that a number of our players either are unable or unwilling to work in a different formation and perhaps try to make that a success or at the least make it a it a feasible alternative. That worries me. Nothing under Shakey whilst working with Pearson suggests that he has this in his locker.

 

Do we need more adaptable players or bin off our more expensive signings as we're not going to build a team around them? 

[Babylon]

1 hour ago, sphericalfox said:

 

i think they possibly were. They maybe were to brought in to give us something more than Option A. Don't get me wrong when Option A is good and works, it's great, but it can be managed against a quality team. We need something else. Unfortunately it would seem that a number of our players either are unable or unwilling to work in a different formation and perhaps try to make that a success or at the least make it a it a feasible alternative. That worries me. Nothing under Shakey whilst working with Pearson suggests that he has this in his locker.

 

Do we need more adaptable players or bin off our more expensive signings as we're not going to build a team around them? 

I don't know what to think really, they all seemed more than happy with 352 when it worked at the end of the first season.

 

Ranieri never really gave any other formation a REAL try. If your other alternative is 433, give it a go and stick with it.

 

Don't go 442,433,442 diamond, 352 and back to 442. If you have players reluctant to change, then doing that is just going to make them question you even more.

 

I think it got to the point they didn't trust his decisions and that's why they were reluctant. I think someone who they buy into, who has a coherent plan can get something else from them.

[coolhandfox]

On 20 March 2017 at 20:44, Monsell1976 said:

Think there needs to be a balance between youth and experience, English and foreign players.

We have brought mainly young, and mainly foreign 

Also the 3 premier league players you mention, couldn't be brought for 60 mill, rumoured 30 mill deeney, rumoured anywhere from 20/30 mill for Keane, and Sigurdsson would be at least 30 mill as he's class

Keane at the start of the season would have been much less, around the 20m mark. How much would he be worth now, after being capped by England, and having a great season for Burnley 30m +! How much do you think we have lost on Musa, we would be lucky to get 10m! 

 

My issue isn't the nationality or age, it's the pedigree, we have gambled, we have spent 60million on squad fillers, even if we have got 2 of the 3 I mentioned we would be better off! 

 

How can we buy two forwards and not one quality centre back? 

 

Our recuitment has been crap, not matter how you cut it! 

 

 

Edited 24 March 2017 by coolhandfox

[SecretPro]

He is dogshit but I'll give him a chance.