Southgate's Vision?

[Thracian]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39347434

 

Belittle's the island mentality when it is the very fact that we are an island that made us one of the most exploring nations in the world and ensured that we learned lots from other people since man first built and sailed their boats.

 

But I'd argue it was precisely forgetting our responsibility to our own and importing so much rubbish from elsewhere that has left the England team as such a shambles.

 

I'm 100% for importing a limited number of brilliant players from anywhere you chose, perhaps for a limited period.

People like Thierry Henry, Bergkamp, Cristiano Ronaldo, and so many more masters of their craft offered wonderful example to everyone.

 

Unfortunately for every Ronaldo there's been a boatload of dross and each and every one of those ordinary players has limited the development of our own youngsters who, too often,  don't get the chance to break through and see their skills blossom. And we're just as bad at Leicester as elsewhere.

 

But really, the answer's with the government and the football authorities.  Limit the incomers and insist on quotas of nationals in each team and the balance will change back to that which helped us win the world cup in 1966.

 

None of that prevents us learning from anyone, anywhere. It doesn't prevent us importing top quality players or employing/learning about  top quality coaches from overseas. But what it does do is maintain a ladder of progress for our national players, which the national team is supposed to serve and which the structure of the game in our country should encourage.

 

It's not just been the English who've suffered through foreign emphasis and accommodation,

Scotland's been even worse hit to the point where their once respected football league which used to develope some wonderful talent, has become a backwater and their team just a gesture.

 

Basically we've let our own people down and we do it all the time in our determination to offer opportunity to (or to benefit from) others rather than developing our own. And in doing so we dilute the home talent available to other countries as well. Why? For reflected glory and to ensure we give the impression of being best instead of actually making the commitment to getting the best from our own.

 

It's no different in other fields, like the NHS. For every incomer who takes a job in the UK it means a job that our own nationals don't get. And we stop training our own because we know there are trained people already available to us from elsewhere...but at the expense of their own hospitals and care facilities, 

 

There's nothing wrong with secondments - the idea of exchanging like-for-like talent to facilitate learning and greater experience for reasonable periods. But countries should first and foremost be responsible for the welfare and development of their own people, . Whether it be footballers, doctors and nurses, pilots or whatever. And the best efforts of each country should be used as encouragement and incentive for others.

     .

There is nothing in that to prevent joint enterprise either. But joint-enterprise means mutual benefit. Anything else creates imbalance somewhere and a situation where the wealthiest tend to benefit the most and the world's cream (or most wanted) become centred on particular places which is demonstrably unhealthy in broader terms.

 

Further proof of this may well be seen in football fairly shortly, if the Chinese continue to flex their financial muscle, at everyone else's expense, in terms of standard.  

     

[davieG]

The National team will never improve whilst the money driven PL runs football in this country. There's not even that much kudos they gain by having England players in their squads when they've got some of the best from better achieving nations in there it's a vicious circle.

 

Plenty of fans, along with the clubs don't help either as they get more excited over the signing of some exotic sounding player rather than a John Smith.

[Mark_w]

1 hour ago, Thracian said:

Basically we've let our own people down

[Thracian]

11 minutes ago, Mark_w said:

Just look at the output from what is a sizeable Academy input at Leicester if you have doubts.  It's way below what it should be in my view.

[Finnegan]

I love that you turned Southgate saying England should learn from nations who are better at footy in to some nationalistic rant.

 

Top Thracian that is.

[lgfualol]

That first line was impressive. 

 

We should learn from Germany though. Way more coaches, way more opportunities for coaches and way cheaper to become a coach. 

[Thracian]

1 hour ago, lgfualol said:

That first line was impressive. 

 

We should learn from Germany though. Way more coaches, way more opportunities for coaches and way cheaper to become a coach. 

My own experience of the coaching situation in England is that the bar was set far too low. Particularly at lower levels, almost anyone who did the course would get through, whether they were really any good at coaching or not.

 

Some of the participants should never have been there in the first place. They simply didn't have the demonstration skills let alone any idea of how to develop individual skills or free-kick strategies with any demonstrative conviction.

 

It was the same in football and squash and most depressingly among teachers, youth club personnel or small club enthusiasts who wanted to be involved for various, sometimes monetary reasons, but who really had no aptitude for the games whatsoever.

 

Basically, administrations were so desperate for coaches they'd qualify anyone and, even at professional level, I wonder how some people ever get their badges given their lack of communication skills and various other shortcomings.

 

Yes, it's hard to judge for sure but when I see experienced players who are inexperienced coaches being appointed in high level management/coaching positions I really do have to question the thinking and understanding of what it takes to be a good coach or manager.            

 

I just give thanks that Shaky's done stacks of groundwork.

 

There's nothing new about us learning from other coaches in other countries but we'll never benefit from their input unless we improve the qualification standards for coaches here so we can be sure have the skills to put the best ideas over to people, and into practice.

 

The other thing for the authorities to attend to is ensuring opportunities. There needs to be a standard of output into various grades of professional football from the football academies and a pretty good one, based on size. I know it wouldn't be perfect, but it's marvellous how standards can be met once they're demanded.

 

Because right now it grieves me to see the waste of potentially good footballers in this country. And that starts with Leicester.

 

I've been on this site since 2005. In all that time the Leicester academy has produced just one goalkeeper who's even approached our first team level (Logan), not a single centre-forward (though Billy McKay did okay in Scotland). one centre-back in Liam Moore, not a single right-back and only one winger whose name is worthy of mention in Gradel. Levi Porter was a winger too, but left in his own circumstances.

 

Apologies for anyone I've missed or forgotten but, although it's not hopeless or inconsequential. it really doesn't seem much over the best part of 12 years or so.

 

And I don't think the other positions have been much more prolific in terms of successful graduates. A few full-backs (Stearman, Chilwell, Mattock, Sheehan) plus Kingy and Wesolowski in midfield. But  really, the crops have hardly been bumper.  

 

Indeed, if the Leicester Academy was a university, it would probably be closed down, unsubscribed or restructured due to indifferent or underperforming results.

 

Especially at Premiership levels although I do accept there's some merit in graduating youngsters into lower professional levels and even into football-related jobs other than on the pitch.

 

But the first aim, surely, is to produce players for our first team or for top grade football generally.

 

And that requires not just the best of coaching and the commitment to provide the right competitive environment but the opportunities to put the coaching into practice.

 

You won't do that with random team selections. Everything should mirror the first team as far as possible.

 

Poilcy should stretch from the manager down, with a "will to win" among students paramount. 

 

And that, for me, would be the first question I'd want to discover about a potential recruit. Does he have the the determination, brain, skill, conviction, humility, and physical/mental strength to be a winner?

 

Look at any player you know who didn't make it. None will tick all those boxes, except in the case of injury.

 

Sadly, some who do make it don't tick all the boxes either...and it's these that need to be replaced and improved on if we're going to fly our national flag with pride again. But e also need to cut out the initial recruits that don't have these qualities and focus on people who do. Football in schools and on the parks can be as much about participation as anything. But football at professional level is about winning and achieving things.

 

We've done that through our Academy to a certain point but the finishing school seems to be lacking. Has done for years and we need to find and attend to the reasons why.  

 

.  

                              

 

[Stadt]

We had leagues full of almost exclusively English players for 100 years and only won a solitary world cup, having premier league sides full of Ashley Westwoods won't improve the national side but improving the number and quality of coaches will. The FA coaching courses have improved from what I've read but there's still a lot wrong, apparently pressing is treated as though it's just a fad and sort of skipped over.

[orangecity23]

9 hours ago, Thracian said:

Apologies for anyone I've missed or forgotten but, although it's not hopeless or inconsequential. it really doesn't seem much over the best part of 12 years or so.

                            

 

I'd largely agree, but would point out you've forgotten Schlupp - along with King, he's arguably been the biggest success from the academy recently, and netted us a tidy transfer fee.

[Manwell Pablo]

22 hours ago, Thracian said:

My own experience of the coaching situation in England is that the bar was set far too low. Particularly at lower levels, almost anyone who did the course would get through, whether they were really any good at coaching or not.

 

Some of the participants should never have been there in the first place. They simply didn't have the demonstration skills let alone any idea of how to develop individual skills or free-kick strategies with any demonstrative conviction.

 

It was the same in football and squash and most depressingly among teachers, youth club personnel or small club enthusiasts who wanted to be involved for various, sometimes monetary reasons, but who really had no aptitude for the games whatsoever.

 

Basically, administrations were so desperate for coaches they'd qualify anyone and, even at professional level, I wonder how some people ever get their badges given their lack of communication skills and various other shortcomings.

 

Yes, it's hard to judge for sure but when I see experienced players who are inexperienced coaches being appointed in high level management/coaching positions I really do have to question the thinking and understanding of what it takes to be a good coach or manager.            

 

I just give thanks that Shaky's done stacks of groundwork.

 

There's nothing new about us learning from other coaches in other countries but we'll never benefit from their input unless we improve the qualification standards for coaches here so we can be sure have the skills to put the best ideas over to people, and into practice.

 

The other thing for the authorities to attend to is ensuring opportunities. There needs to be a standard of output into various grades of professional football from the football academies and a pretty good one, based on size. I know it wouldn't be perfect, but it's marvellous how standards can be met once they're demanded.

 

Because right now it grieves me to see the waste of potentially good footballers in this country. And that starts with Leicester.

 

I've been on this site since 2005. In all that time the Leicester academy has produced just one goalkeeper who's even approached our first team level (Logan), not a single centre-forward (though Billy McKay did okay in Scotland). one centre-back in Liam Moore, not a single right-back and only one winger whose name is worthy of mention in Gradel. Levi Porter was a winger too, but left in his own circumstances.

 

Apologies for anyone I've missed or forgotten but, although it's not hopeless or inconsequential. it really doesn't seem much over the best part of 12 years or so.

 

And I don't think the other positions have been much more prolific in terms of successful graduates. A few full-backs (Stearman, Chilwell, Mattock, Sheehan) plus Kingy and Wesolowski in midfield. But  really, the crops have hardly been bumper.  

 

Indeed, if the Leicester Academy was a university, it would probably be closed down, unsubscribed or restructured due to indifferent or underperforming results.

 

Especially at Premiership levels although I do accept there's some merit in graduating youngsters into lower professional levels and even into football-related jobs other than on the pitch.

 

But the first aim, surely, is to produce players for our first team or for top grade football generally.

 

And that requires not just the best of coaching and the commitment to provide the right competitive environment but the opportunities to put the coaching into practice.

 

You won't do that with random team selections. Everything should mirror the first team as far as possible.

 

Poilcy should stretch from the manager down, with a "will to win" among students paramount. 

 

And that, for me, would be the first question I'd want to discover about a potential recruit. Does he have the the determination, brain, skill, conviction, humility, and physical/mental strength to be a winner?

 

Look at any player you know who didn't make it. None will tick all those boxes, except in the case of injury.

 

Sadly, some who do make it don't tick all the boxes either...and it's these that need to be replaced and improved on if we're going to fly our national flag with pride again. But e also need to cut out the initial recruits that don't have these qualities and focus on people who do. Football in schools and on the parks can be as much about participation as anything. But football at professional level is about winning and achieving things.

 

We've done that through our Academy to a certain point but the finishing school seems to be lacking. Has done for years and we need to find and attend to the reasons why.  

 

.  

                              

 

 

Amazing, you even mention Stearmen in the next paragraph! And how can you forget poor Jeffrey, lad will be heart broken!

 

 

[GaelicFox]

I bet they practice penalties all the time 

[Nick]

On 22/03/2017 at 08:31, Thracian said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39347434

 

Belittle's the island mentality when it is the very fact that we are an island that made us one of the most exploring nations in the world and ensured that we learned lots from other people since man first built and sailed their boats.

 

But I'd argue it was precisely forgetting our responsibility to our own and importing so much rubbish from elsewhere that has left the England team as such a shambles.

 

I'm 100% for importing a limited number of brilliant players from anywhere you chose, perhaps for a limited period.

People like Thierry Henry, Bergkamp, Cristiano Ronaldo, and so many more masters of their craft offered wonderful example to everyone.

 

Unfortunately for every Ronaldo there's been a boatload of dross and each and every one of those ordinary players has limited the development of our own youngsters who, too often,  don't get the chance to break through and see their skills blossom. And we're just as bad at Leicester as elsewhere.

 

But really, the answer's with the government and the football authorities.  Limit the incomers and insist on quotas of nationals in each team and the balance will change back to that which helped us win the world cup in 1966.

 

None of that prevents us learning from anyone, anywhere. It doesn't prevent us importing top quality players or employing/learning about  top quality coaches from overseas. But what it does do is maintain a ladder of progress for our national players, which the national team is supposed to serve and which the structure of the game in our country should encourage.

 

It's not just been the English who've suffered through foreign emphasis and accommodation,

Scotland's been even worse hit to the point where their once respected football league which used to develope some wonderful talent, has become a backwater and their team just a gesture.

 

Basically we've let our own people down and we do it all the time in our determination to offer opportunity to (or to benefit from) others rather than developing our own. And in doing so we dilute the home talent available to other countries as well. Why? For reflected glory and to ensure we give the impression of being best instead of actually making the commitment to getting the best from our own.

 

It's no different in other fields, like the NHS. For every incomer who takes a job in the UK it means a job that our own nationals don't get. And we stop training our own because we know there are trained people already available to us from elsewhere...but at the expense of their own hospitals and care facilities, 

 

There's nothing wrong with secondments - the idea of exchanging like-for-like talent to facilitate learning and greater experience for reasonable periods. But countries should first and foremost be responsible for the welfare and development of their own people, . Whether it be footballers, doctors and nurses, pilots or whatever. And the best efforts of each country should be used as encouragement and incentive for others.

     .

There is nothing in that to prevent joint enterprise either. But joint-enterprise means mutual benefit. Anything else creates imbalance somewhere and a situation where the wealthiest tend to benefit the most and the world's cream (or most wanted) become centred on particular places which is demonstrably unhealthy in broader terms.

 

Further proof of this may well be seen in football fairly shortly, if the Chinese continue to flex their financial muscle, at everyone else's expense, in terms of standard.  

     

Build a wall.

 

Build a wall for the sake of your own people - I'm damn sure I'm not one of them.

 

Lets make football great again.

 

Lets certainly ignore the contribution foreign players, coaches and investment have brought to football.

 

Insular nationalistic bile as usual - There's a million ways to nurture talent and it takes investing ten times the money in grass roots for a start - it's not about passports.

[purpleronnie]

On ‎22‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 08:31, Thracian said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39347434

 

 

 

 

 

It's no different in other fields, like the NHS. For every incomer who takes a job in the UK it means a job that our own nationals don't get. And we stop training our own because we know there are trained people already available to us from elsewhere...but at the expense of their own hospitals and care facilities, 

 

 

     

Blimey people still believe that nonsense?

[m4DD0gg]

Next world cup, group stages at best....maybe second round if we are in a real shitty group.