Bilo Posted 29 May 2015 Share Posted 29 May 2015 In fairness to Miliband, one thing he did do was to reduce the influence of unions by reforming the voting system. It's now one member-one vote, and trade union members only get a vote if they're a member or registered supporter of the party. The unions will, of course, try to influence their members but the OMOV system is likely to significantly reduce their influence, I mentioned earlier in the thread that David Miliband would most likely have won under this system, and who knows how that would have changed things? The main thing Labour needs to do is to recognise the pluralistic nature of society - in some communities we'll need to appeal to minority voters, in others we won't. What we also need is the balls to tackle injustice within society regardless of the perpetrators, including injustices perpetrated by minority communities, so as we can shake off the spectre of events like those in Rotherham and the 'politically correct' tag that's stuck. A one-size-fits-all model won't wash any more, we need to keep hold of our core values of social justice, strong communities, reward for hard work, decency and rights matched by responsibilities but also recognise that the needs of voters in a predominantly white, working class market town are very different from those in an ethnically diverse inner city constituency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 29 May 2015 Share Posted 29 May 2015 quote Joking aside, it undermines both causes when these people just like generic far-left rent-a-mob types. I personally support Palestinian sovereignty, oppose austerity, want student tuition fees and a fair deal for all workers but have the intelligence to realise that all these issues ought to be kept separate.quote One revolution at a time Bilo? Maybe they all agree with each other about each other's causes and joining together to protest? I don't agree with the damage and violence but someone once said and this is from memory. 'When peaceful protest becomes impossible violent protests becomes inevitable.' It is not in the protesters interests to cause trouble as it deflects the media and public's attention from the cause but on the other hand for those against the protests......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilo Posted 29 May 2015 Share Posted 29 May 2015 You've pretty much nailed what Labour has to do there in one posy, I can't see that happening with the current shower but a Dan Jarvis led shadow cabinet in 2025 having cleared out all the deadwood wouldn't surprise me if it managed to achieve it. The one thing I would add to that is I think they almost now need to completely seperate themselves from the unions, the general public regard people like Len McCluskey as absolute scum and being attached to these militant people in any way doesn't appeal to anyone outside the core vote, whether they can financially afford to do that I don't know. If they want their voters back from UKIP they basically need to stop pandering so much to the minority vote, although I doubt the people they lost through things like Rotherham will be coming back whatever happens. They certainly can't be turning up at gender segregated rallies, that sort of hypocrisy isn't going to wash in this day and age. On the sujject of protestors, quite brilliant irony has literally just been on TV, a anti-Fifa protest outside the building and you guessed it, a few them have the obligatory modern day protestor Palestinian flag Brilliant! I'm seriously considering taking the day off work next May Day and setting up a Palestine flag stall in London. I'd pay for my holidays for the next three years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilo Posted 29 May 2015 Share Posted 29 May 2015 quote Joking aside, it undermines both causes when these people just like generic far-left rent-a-mob types. I personally support Palestinian sovereignty, oppose austerity, want student tuition fees and a fair deal for all workers but have the intelligence to realise that all these issues ought to be kept separate.quote One revolution at a time Bilo? Maybe they all agree with each other about each other's causes and joining together to protest? I don't agree with the damage and violence but someone once said and this is from memory. 'When peaceful protest becomes impossible violent protests becomes inevitable.' It is not in the protesters interests to cause trouble as it deflects the media and public's attention from the cause but on the other hand for those against the protests......... The issue is what relevance do they all have to one another? It devalues noble causes to have them all conflated into one big mush of a generic protest. It makes it look as though a protest about austerity, public sector pay or student tuition fees has been hijacked by those with an agenda that has nothing to do with any of those issues. Would you turn up to a protest about the bombings in Gaza with a sign on a stick protesting against cuts to pensions? Of course not, it'd be completely out of place. I'm not sure what the peaceful/violent protest has to do with my quote either. Peaceful protest is possible and the vast majority of protestors manage it perfectly well, it's usually a small minority of idiots who choose to discredit the entire protest by smashing up a McDonald's or spray painting the Cenotaph. That doesn't mean violent protest is inevitable, at least not if your IQ is in triple figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseBreath Posted 29 May 2015 Share Posted 29 May 2015 quote Joking aside, it undermines both causes when these people just like generic far-left rent-a-mob types. I personally support Palestinian sovereignty, oppose austerity, want student tuition fees and a fair deal for all workers but have the intelligence to realise that all these issues ought to be kept separate.quote One revolution at a time Bilo? Maybe they all agree with each other about each other's causes and joining together to protest? I don't agree with the damage and violence but someone once said and this is from memory. 'When peaceful protest becomes impossible violent protests becomes inevitable.' It is not in the protesters interests to cause trouble as it deflects the media and public's attention from the cause but on the other hand for those against the protests......... Have a quick flick through the class war party's website and see how interested they are in peace and not causing trouble. They're nothing more than common scum. I suspect most lefties feel those kind of base level urges but most at least have the decency to maintain their inhibitions. These are like raw, true-colour lefties and it's no surprise their behaviour is lord of the flies-esque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 29 May 2015 Share Posted 29 May 2015 Brilliant! I'm seriously considering taking the day off work next May Day and setting up a Palestine flag stall in London. I'd pay for my holidays for the next three years. - That is actually not a bad idea, you'd shift loads on a day of public sector strikes. In fairness I've just read FIFA is also voting today on whether to kick Israel out, so there is a slight reason for the pro-Pally mob to be there. quote Joking aside, it undermines both causes when these people just like generic far-left rent-a-mob types. I personally support Palestinian sovereignty, oppose austerity, want student tuition fees and a fair deal for all workers but have the intelligence to realise that all these issues ought to be kept separate.quote One revolution at a time Bilo? Maybe they all agree with each other about each other's causes and joining together to protest? I don't agree with the damage and violence but someone once said and this is from memory. 'When peaceful protest becomes impossible violent protests becomes inevitable.' It is not in the protesters interests to cause trouble as it deflects the media and public's attention from the cause but on the other hand for those against the protests......... Is there any ludicrous act based on total stupidity you won't actually try and defend in some way? As Bilo has said, in these protests it isn't the whole crowd being violent, it's always a tiny minority, the vast majority of protestors whatever the cause manage to keep it peaceful, there is no excuse whatsoever for the sort of things we see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 29 May 2015 Share Posted 29 May 2015 On the sujject of protestors, quite brilliant irony has literally just been on TV, a anti-Fifa protest outside the building and you guessed it, a few them have the obligatory modern day protestor Palestinian flag They should get harry and Milan to lead the protests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 29 May 2015 Share Posted 29 May 2015 Have a quick flick through the class war party's website and see how interested they are in peace and not causing trouble. They're nothing more than common scum. I suspect most lefties feel those kind of base level urges but most at least have the decency to maintain their inhibitions. These are like raw, true-colour lefties and it's no surprise their behaviour is lord of the flies-esque. True they do themselves no favours if they are seen like this. I suppose it would not have the same impact if they wore 3 piece suits bowler hats, briefcases and rolled up umbrellas. Strangely hearing phrases like 'common scum' scroungers' 'shirkers' 'true-colour lefties' repeatedly often encourages people to turn against them and use the same phrases themselves.Se la vie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniFox Posted 29 May 2015 Share Posted 29 May 2015 Even for you that's an outrageous piece of fibbing. Had a quick look at this and found it very bizarre, a lot of Labour supporters seem to think they own the working class, what a strange thought process to have, these weren't impressionable kids either at University playing up to their militant leftism, a lot were fully grown men beyond the age of 40. Another reason the left needs to think about and why they probably lost the election, you can't take anybody for granted, you don't own someone's vote. To be fair it is hard to keep up with what these guys are protesting about on a day-today basis, one of them had a 'Stop the Cuts' banner in one hand, a Palestinian flag in the other, a rainbow tutu around the waist and a balaclava on his/her head. That's the problem, the working class were taken for granted by many Labour supporters, as if they are supposed to vote Labour based purely on their social class, from what I saw the message is clear from the working class Tories, "We want to get on and Labour won't let us." Partly, I see where they are coming from in this last campaign, Labour's negativity towards wealth creators and the wealthy actually put some of the working class off of Labour more. The working class do not aspire to be working class forever, Labour need to do more to show the working class will genuinely benefit from a Labour government, help small businesses to start/grow, let the lower earners pay less/no tax, etc. this is more productive than putting up taxes for the rich as this does not benefit the working class in terms of the money that goes into their pocket.. Indeed. So often their comments will include a remark about how working class Conservative voters have been 'brainwashed', were short sighted, greedy or too stupid to make the right decision. It isn't just a polite disagreement but an attack on the working class' ability to think for themselves. That for me is the biggest issue, trying to undermine them isn't going to make them change their mind, if someone disagrees, they should give them reason for disagreeing with facts not just "If you're working class and vote Tory you're an idiot". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 29 May 2015 Share Posted 29 May 2015 To be fair it is hard to keep up with what these guys are protesting about on a day-today basis, one of them had a 'Stop the Cuts' banner in one hand, a Palestinian flag in the other, a rainbow tutu around the waist and a balaclava on his/her head. - all that's missing is the V mask. However, that's wasteful - they could have the stop the cuts on one side of the flag, palestine on the other and then another hand for protesting badger finning or whatever this weeks Greenpeace cause is. I really don't get the people who try to bring everything into the same protest - like the NUS march in 2012: I ended up down there, and there was a fairly big group chanting something along the lines of: "free, free palestine, education is a right"; I'm still struggling to work out how that makes any sense. If you're down there to protest tuition fees, protest tuition fees - but them and the middle east are separate issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 29 May 2015 Share Posted 29 May 2015 Some probably to tag along to save them applying for a different day for a march. Austerity can affect many issues and people. If something affects nurses and social workers it can have a knock on affect to their patients or visa versa. I agree with Palestine and animal rights issues. They should be seperate but with some being more radical there would only be a small number on their own. I had a message on Facebook a month or two back. 'Saturday, Victoria Park Rally and march 12pm' I messaged back 'Saturday, City V Newcastle King Power Stadium 3pm.' Sometimes you have to get your priorities right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 29 May 2015 Share Posted 29 May 2015 Some probably to tag along to save them applying for a different day for a march. Austerity can affect many issues and people. If something affects nurses and social workers it can have a knock on affect to their patients or visa versa. I agree with Palestine and animal rights issues. They should be seperate but with some being more radical there would only be a small number on their own. I had a message on Facebook a month or two back. 'Saturday, Victoria Park Rally and march 12pm' I messaged back 'Saturday, City V Newcastle King Power Stadium 3pm.' Sometimes you have to get your priorities right. Youve been sniffing white Dee's knickers for way too long......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doncht Posted 27 June 2015 Share Posted 27 June 2015 That's way too deep that you've gone through though. Not really sure on which one of them are correct too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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