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President Trump & the USA

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Guest MattP

I can't stop laughing at the video of him puishing to the front and then adjusting his jacket for a photo op, absolutely amazing.

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28 minutes ago, MattP said:

I can't stop laughing at the video of him puishing to the front and then adjusting his jacket for a photo op, absolutely amazing.

You've not been to the pooonjab, they all fooking do it, it's like a massive fight at every photo opportunity

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Just catching up with HIGNFY. Watched the one with Frankie Boyle. One line was 'President Trump said every time he answers he feels like someone is listening.'

Boyle said 

'Of course you do its a frigging phone.'

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10 hours ago, Rincewind said:

Just catching up with HIGNFY. Watched the one with Frankie Boyle. One line was 'President Trump said every time he answers he feels like someone is listening.'

Boyle said 

'Of course you do its a frigging phone.'

I'm a big fan of HIGNFY but not around election times when the hosts and guests go into full partisan smug mode and it's almost always in the form of right-winger bashing.  Take that Frankie Boyle ep - it was basically an exercise in making simple jokes about the evil Tories then basking in the liberal audience's rapturous applause.  It's the sort of thing that makes me uneasy to be ideologically associated with the left-wing because there's obviously so much hate under the surface there which is ironic because we all know the right-wingers are the ones filled with hatred and malice.

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Guest MattP
On 5/28/2017 at 11:21, Carl the Llama said:

I'm a big fan of HIGNFY but not around election times when the hosts and guests go into full partisan smug mode and it's almost always in the form of right-winger bashing.  Take that Frankie Boyle ep - it was basically an exercise in making simple jokes about the evil Tories then basking in the liberal audience's rapturous applause.  It's the sort of thing that makes me uneasy to be ideologically associated with the left-wing because there's obviously so much hate under the surface there which is ironic because we all know the right-wingers are the ones filled with hatred and malice.

I noticed it on Friday. The audience couldn't even laugh at the single joke about Corbyn, into hysterics when it's one about the Tories or UKIP.

 

It does annoy me but as I've says before, I don't think it hurts us at the ballor box.

 

It's not a co-incidence that since the arrival of the so called "liberal elite" to our screens the right wing vote has gone up across the rest of the country. 

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Guest MattP

The worst I saw was channel 4 "alternate election night" in 2015.

 

They were still doing sketches about assuminh people had turned their backs on the Tories as they were winning seats like Nuneaton by thousands at 3am.

 

That far in their own cocoon they had written a night's worth of material assuming Ed Miliband was going to be PM. 

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1 hour ago, MattP said:

I noticed it on Friday. The audience couldn't even laugh at the single joke about Corbyn, into hysterics when it's one about the Tories or UKIP.

 

It does annoy me but as I've says before, I don't think it hurts us at the ballor box.

 

It's not a co-incidence that since the arrival of the so called "liberal elite" to our screens the right wing vote has gone up across the rest of the country. 

 
 

I agree the condescencion from areas of popular culture is an issue...but speaking solely about the US this time, is the reaction to elect an administration with possibly the worst long term policy ideas ever (especially in areas that really matter) as a replying "screw you" really justified? Smacks a little of disproportionate response to me.

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6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I agree the condescencion from areas of popular culture is an issue...but speaking solely about the US this time, is the reaction to elect an administration with possibly the worst long term policy ideas ever (especially in areas that really matter) as a replying "screw you" really justified? Smacks a little of disproportionate response to me.

Responses are often disproportionate.

 

Not saying they are right, can see why they happen though. 

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16 minutes ago, MattP said:

Responses are often disproportionate.

 

Not saying they are right, can see why they happen though. 

 

Yeah. Causing widespread trouble just because someone talked down to you (as opposed to, I don't know, some kind of more considered response) is indeed a very...human thing to do.

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22 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah. Causing widespread trouble just because someone talked down to you (as opposed to, I don't know, some kind of more considered response) is indeed a very...human thing to do.

You talk like it was an obvious choice with a sensible answer. It wasn't.

 

I wouldn't have voted for Clinton in a million years, we'd probably be blowing up Yemen now had we done.

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4 hours ago, Darkon84 said:

I've had a rather busy weekend etc so haven't kept up with a great deal, but flying on the coat tails of the apparent 'huge' news from last week that Trump had a handshake with Macron TWICE and then joked about it too, there are some real news stories to arise from his trip abroad. Perhaps it could be worth looking in a little more detail rather than handshakes, 'pope-face' and glowing orbs. 

 

First to Riyadh, then Tel Aviv, then Jerusalem, then Rome, then Brussels, then Taormina, Italy. First, he brokered a massive $100 billion-plus deal with Saudi Arabian leaders (I can't claim to know the details of such deals though) and delivered a powerful speech to 50 Arab leaders. Then he became the first to fly from the Arab nation directly to Israel, where he made history as the first sitting president to visit the Western Wall. He met Pope Francis. (This could be seen as a good, large point - He met Muslim leaders, Jewish leaders, Christian leaders, which could be seen as a brilliant stroke by the man the media says is over his head in the White House — and historic.)

 

In Brussels, he demanded European leaders pull their own weight (and pay their fair share) with NATO. Which I think is a fair point which we probably could be pushing too.

 

he responded forcefully to the terror bombing in Manchester, when — appearing with Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Authority president, a leader (who, according to some, tolerates terrorsim) — Trump called Muslim bombers “losers." (OK 'losers' isn't particularly articulate, but the point still stands that something was said, rather than brushing under the carpet again)

 

But of course, the real news is that him and Macron had a bit of a handshake which went both ways, Melania didn't hold his hand, and he touched a glowing orb.

 

Again, as stated before, I don't support Trump, but I do pop up occasionally here for the sake of balance. Surely it's fairly obvious that most of the above have been overlooked for far more trivial things. As well as visiting the girl in the Israeli hospital who's dream was to meet him, where he took the time out to make it happen. Let's be honest. If that was Obama, the media would be creaming about how amazing he was. 

 

 

Interesting. Thanks for popping up with this.

 

Firstly, do you really think that the SA deal is a good idea? If it had been a Dem leader there would have been howls of protest about making a deal with a country with such grotesque human rights records, after all.

 

Good to see that he's visiting Israel and that he mentioned a possible deal with the Palestinians as the only way things end well over there. Not sure how well that will go down with the hardliners but...good.

 

I hope that he learned something from his trip to see Pope Francis, though the whole thing did look like a cut from the latest episode of The Handmaids Tale.

 

In the G7 talks the US was totally isolated. Of course he wants NATO to start filling the pot a little more (and given his home backing that's not an unreasonable request for him to make) but he completely strong-armed other issues, particularly (and crucially) commitment to the Paris climate deal. There seemed to be very little useful dialogue out of it all as a result.

 

Of course he's going to respond vociferously to the attack in Manchester - it fits what his administration are trying to push and it was an ideal opportunity for him to look tough.

 

And once he got back home, the Twitter storm began once again.

 

In the meantime...at home the Russia stuff isn't really going away and two guys were murdered by a white supremacist in Oregon, about which Trump has said precisely nothing.

 

I'm glad you're here for the sake of balance and I agree that the media are cherry-picking stuff as is their wont, but I wouldn't call this journey a qualified foreign policy success just yet.

 

55 minutes ago, MattP said:

You talk like it was an obvious choice with a sensible answer. It wasn't.

 

I wouldn't have voted for Clinton in a million years, we'd probably be blowing up Yemen now had we done.

 

 

TBH, the attitude of this administration (not necessarily Trump himself, but those around him) towards science and the environment which was patently obvious before he was elected, withholding all other issues, should have made it an obvious choice.

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36 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

Interesting. Thanks for popping up with this.

 

Firstly, do you really think that the SA deal is a good idea? If it had been a Dem leader there would have been howls of protest about making a deal with a country with such grotesque human rights records, after all.

 

Good to see that he's visiting Israel and that he mentioned a possible deal with the Palestinians as the only way things end well over there. Not sure how well that will go down with the hardliners but...good.

 

I hope that he learned something from his trip to see Pope Francis, though the whole thing did look like a cut from the latest episode of The Handmaids Tale.

 

In the G7 talks the US was totally isolated. Of course he wants NATO to start filling the pot a little more (and given his home backing that's not an unreasonable request for him to make) but he completely strong-armed other issues, particularly (and crucially) commitment to the Paris climate deal. There seemed to be very little useful dialogue out of it all as a result.

 

Of course he's going to respond vociferously to the attack in Manchester - it fits what his administration are trying to push and it was an ideal opportunity for him to look tough.

 

And once he got back home, the Twitter storm began once again.

 

In the meantime...at home the Russia stuff isn't really going away and two guys were murdered by a white supremacist in Oregon, about which Trump has said precisely nothing.

 

I'm glad you're here for the sake of balance and I agree that the media are cherry-picking stuff as is their wont, but I wouldn't call this journey a qualified foreign policy success just yet.

 

 

TBH, the attitude of this administration (not necessarily Trump himself, but those around him) towards science and the environment which was patently obvious before he was elected, withholding all other issues, should have made it an obvious choice.

Haha well, that seems to be my role in this thread, trying to apply some sort of balance amid the howling, screaming, over the top reactions and 'anonymous informants' (which just seems to be code-word for 'do as you please and say its anonymous and you can get way with it in the news-nowadays). lol

 

As I said, I'm not privy to the deals with SA. I'm dubious of any deal with them, whether it be USA or UK etc. Theres always something to be gained from it both ways which makes me a tad uncomfortable, but it just seems to be the way things are and will be, which wont change. They hold a certain key to hold over the rest over the world, which I dont like. (just to bring something back to Hillary again (you know i hate her), she took $25 million from them during her campaign but it wasnt a problem then ;) ) 

 

I think the thing about Trump flying between the countries needs to be brought up. It might seem insignificant to many, but that is actually a HUGE thing. NO-ONE does that....EVER! But he did, and everyone agreed, which is astounding. To then go on to visit the wall, speak to leaders of all faiths one after another is unheard of too and Trump and his team deserve huge credit for that. It would have been laughed out of the room if previously even suggested, but he did it, and did it well with no (observable) dramas. 

 

Yes yes, the Pope trip....have a little look and there are numerous photos of him and the Pope joking and smiling together. Melania is a devout Catholic so it was huge for her too to be within those walls. The photo that did the rounds of the pop loking miserable is just his face. Have a quick look for his meeting with Obama and youll see the same 'resting pope-face'

 

Regards to the NATO point - he said it all along and he's sticking with it so should be credited with that. Many countries do not pull their weight and never have. It's about time someone told them to do so. I'd stick by that even if it was Hillary (shudder). A country like ours should have done something similar long before. I'm with you on the Paris deal though, that was skimmed over by him and I didnt like that. We've been through this with each other before regarding renewables and I think we agree it's out of the world leaders hands really. It comes down to the energy providers and those who provide/use the carbon fuel. Until that's gone, nothing will really change, so in my eyes, it's all just bluster and posturing until then. FFS is AKON the 'musician' can provide x amount of solar panels to provide energy for hundreds/thousands off his own back, then surely countries could solve all the energy problems. Solar arrays in the sahara could power most of europe.

 

Don't write off what he said about Manchester. Yes, any leader would and did react to it, but he actually reacted almost personally to it, calling them out as losers, rather than just the usual regurgitated soundbites. He seems to actually want to do something about it. Even if he doesnt in the end, he at least gives a glimmer of hope (whatever it may be in the long run, we dont know) by putting a foot down, and believe it or not, people respond to that. People are sick of the same old soft soundbites and facebook profile picture flags etc lol 

 

The Russia stuff has faded in to the background as no actual evidence has come about. The supposed memo between Comey and Trump which was supposed to be huge hasnt been provided within the specified time either. I'm not saying that parts of Trumps collective didn't have some form of connection with the Russians, but im still waiting for any actual evidence. 2 white supremacist murders....jeez Mac, you're better than that, that seemed a bit of a cheap shop to bring up white supremacists here. I'll condemn that like the next man, but theres the murder of Democrat Seth Rich being buried too. (Those two lines are a different line though so lets not go off on a tangent).

 

Yep, I'll agree there, it's not a giant success, but when you're doing so many foreign trips in such a short space of time, especially between such heated areas will never be 100% success. The point is, is that it has been decent, and nowhere near the tornado the media have made. 

I appreciate your appreciation, thank you, its taken on board, thank you :) 

 

Luckily, the strongarms around Trump seem to be loosening their grip one way or another, but I'm still with you that I don't like his/their attitude towards the environment.

 

Sorry for such an essay. I just got on a roll. I blame the pint at lunch. It's mainly, probably just waffle. Im sure it could have been condensed. Sorry everyone! :nigel:

 

 

Edited by Darkon84
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14 minutes ago, Darkon84 said:

Haha well, that seems to be my role in this thread, trying to apply some sort of balance amid the howling, screaming, over the top reactions and 'anonymous informants' (which just seems to be code-word for 'do as you please and say its anonymous and you can get way with it in the news-nowadays). lol

 

As I said, I'm not privy to the deals with SA. I'm dubious of any deal with them, whether it be USA or UK etc. Theres always something to be gained from it both ways which makes me a tad uncomfortable, but it just seems to be the way things are and will be, which wont change. They hold a certain key to hold over the rest over the world, which I dont like. (just to bring something back to Hillary again (you know i hate her), she took $25 million from them during her campaign but it wasnt a problem then ;) ) 

 

I think the thing about Trump flying between the countries needs to be brought up. It might seem insignificant to many, but that is actually a HUGE thing. NO-ONE does that....EVER! But he did, and everyone agreed, which is astounding. To then go on to visit the wall, speak to leaders of all faiths one after another is unheard of too and Trump and his team deserve huge credit for that. It would have been laughed out of the room if previously even suggested, but he did it, and did it well with no (observable) dramas. 

 

Yes yes, the Pope trip....have a little look and there are numerous photos of him and the Pope joking and smiling together. Melania is a devout Catholic so it was huge for her too to be within those walls. The photo that did the rounds of the pop loking miserable is just his face. Have a quick look for his meeting with Obama and youll see the same 'resting pope-face'

 

Regards to the NATO point - he said it all along and he's sticking with it so should be credited with that. Many countries do not pull their weight and never have. It's about time someone told them to do so. I'd stick by that even if it was Hillary (shudder). A country like ours should have done something similar long before. I'm with you on the Paris deal though, that was skimmed over by him and I didnt like that. We've been through this with each other before regarding renewables and I think we agree it's out of the world leaders hands really. It comes down to the energy providers and those who provide/use the carbon fuel. Until that's gone, nothing will really change, so in my eyes, it's all just bluster and posturing until then. FFS is AKON the 'musician' can provide x amount of solar panels to provide energy for hundreds/thousands off his own back, then surely countries could solve all the energy problems. Solar arrays in the sahara could power most of europe.

 

Don't write off what he said about Manchester. Yes, any leader would and did react to it, but he actually reacted almost personally to it, calling them out as losers, rather than just the usual regurgitated soundbites. He seems to actually want to do something about it. Even if he doesnt in the end, he at least gives a glimmer of hope (whatever it may be in the long run, we dont know) by putting a foot down, and believe it or not, people respond to that. People are sick of the same old soft soundbites and facebook profile picture flags etc lol 

 

The Russia stuff has faded in to the background as no actual evidence has come about. The supposed memo between Comey and Trump which was supposed to be huge hasnt been provided within the specified time either. I'm not saying that parts of Trumps collective didn't have some form of connection with the Russians, but im still waiting for any actual evidence. 2 white supremacist murders....jeez Mac, you're better than that, that seemed a bit of a cheap shop to bring up white supremacists here. I'll condemn that like the next man, but theres the murder of Democrat Seth Rich being buried too. (Those two lines are a different line though so lets not go off on a tangent).

 

Yep, I'll agree there, it's not a giant success, but when you're doing so many foreign trips in such a short space of time, especially between such heated areas will never be 100% success. The point is, is that it has been decent, and nowhere near the tornado the media have made. 

I appreciate your appreciation, thank you, its taken on board, thank you :) 

 

Luckily, the strongarms around Trump seem to be loosening their grip one way or another, but I'm still with you that I don't like his/their attitude towards the environment.

 

Sorry for such an essay. I just got on a roll. I blame the pint at lunch. It's mainly, probably just waffle. Im sure it could have been condensed. Sorry everyone! 

I am enjoying this discussion!

 

I agree, deals with SA by anyone are a bit dodgy. Both parties would have done the deals, no Government could pass up that much money.

 

I am actually impressed about the flying between countries thing, and going to the western wall etc. I think whoever did the organising needs a big pat on the back. 

 

I was annoyed by the Pope picture, like you I saw other photos or periods when he was talking to Trump when he was smiling.

 

NATO, well... the agreement is to contribute 2% of GDP by 2024, so while that is a long way away, and we'd prefer them to pay more... if they are not doing it by 2024, then that is when the President can lecture them. Is it fair we contribute a larger % of our GDP? Probably not, but everyone signed the agreement so there isn't much to complain about.

 

Re. Manchester and the leaks, I honestly believe they came from the WH, or from the WH via various channels to avoid getting caught. It allows them to call the NYT awful for publishing it, and for them to have a go at leakers and the Intelligence Community. I don't think this WH can be trusted with sensitive information. The 'losers' bit... meh. With DT you're either a winner or a loser. That is how he views the world. He doesn't have another way of expressing himself. I am sure ISIS, or whoever, didn't care at all.

 

The Russia stuff is being worked on. Evidence won't come out because it is an ongoing investigation. You don't produce evidence until the right time. The Republican rally of "there is no evidence" doesn't mean anything, just because it hasn't been put out in the open yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist. They want to build a water tight case.

 

I agree, the trip was alright. I did find the fact that he found it exhausting amusing, but he is 70. 

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2 minutes ago, Merging Cultures said:

TRUMP STUFF

 

Cheers MC, I appreciate that and a very good reply from yourself. See, I'm not so bad after all, after being painted as a dyed in wool Trumpster previously lol

 

Full agreement with regards to SA. i don't think anyone here can soundly object to our points.

 

I'd actually quite like to know who organised his recent trips and the flight arrangements. They definitely deserve a round of applause, for originally suggesting it, sticking to their guns with it and following through with it as I'm sure there would have been a hell of a lot of obstruction and opposition to it. 

 

Ahhhh valid points regarding the NATO point, I wasn't fully aware as to the actual minutia of the pact etc so that's interesting....Every days a schoolday eh! I guess as you say, the results of that will just have to be assessed at a much later date and if you've signed up to an actual percentage for a period of time, it's kinda tough. As you say..whether that's fair or not is a different story.

 

There have apparently been 3 people identified as the leaks from the WH who are 'leftovers' from the Obama administration who seem to have been leaking deliberately to make the Trump house look bad. I'll have to dig out the report/article where I read that, but it's certainly plausible. Either way, something 'yuge' needs to happen to try and get everyone running in the same direction as best they can. Whether Republican or Democrat in the house, its unacceptable for people to be acting so irresponsibly and childishly. I'd say the same thing if roles were reversed too. 

Yea Trump doesn't have a middle mode. It's either 'stop or go'. I don't think he was hoping to upset ISIS with his loser comment, but I think it does show the wider world what he actually thinks and it's refreshing from the regurgitated carbon copy soundbites like 'we must stand strong and not let it defeat us' et etc. NO, show some emotion and show the world you feel how they feel too. I liked him saying it. Wouldnt have been my choice of words, but it was refreshing to me nonetheless. 

 

Yep, but until actual evidence is presented, we just don't know. Unfortunately the media have it turned all the way up to 11 without anything to back them up other than 'anonymous sources', which, as i said before, just seems to be the phrase to give carte blanche to write and make up anything you want. Im sorry but that doesnt wash with me. I dobnt like it and i dont agree with it. If you want to be billy big bollocks at CNN and slander your own president, youd best stand up and present your case instead of hiding behind 'anonymous sources'. Thats my personal opinion though. The Comey memo not being presented within the allocated time does sound a few alarm bells for me though. Was it real? Was the information on it quite what was previously mentioned? if it was, surely it would have been presented immediately? 

 

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Darkon84 said:

Haha well, that seems to be my role in this thread, trying to apply some sort of balance amid the howling, screaming, over the top reactions and 'anonymous informants' (which just seems to be code-word for 'do as you please and say its anonymous and you can get way with it in the news-nowadays). lol

 

As I said, I'm not privy to the deals with SA. I'm dubious of any deal with them, whether it be USA or UK etc. Theres always something to be gained from it both ways which makes me a tad uncomfortable, but it just seems to be the way things are and will be, which wont change. They hold a certain key to hold over the rest over the world, which I dont like. (just to bring something back to Hillary again (you know i hate her), she took $25 million from them during her campaign but it wasnt a problem then ;) ) 

 

I think the thing about Trump flying between the countries needs to be brought up. It might seem insignificant to many, but that is actually a HUGE thing. NO-ONE does that....EVER! But he did, and everyone agreed, which is astounding. To then go on to visit the wall, speak to leaders of all faiths one after another is unheard of too and Trump and his team deserve huge credit for that. It would have been laughed out of the room if previously even suggested, but he did it, and did it well with no (observable) dramas. 

 

Yes yes, the Pope trip....have a little look and there are numerous photos of him and the Pope joking and smiling together. Melania is a devout Catholic so it was huge for her too to be within those walls. The photo that did the rounds of the pop loking miserable is just his face. Have a quick look for his meeting with Obama and youll see the same 'resting pope-face'

 

Regards to the NATO point - he said it all along and he's sticking with it so should be credited with that. Many countries do not pull their weight and never have. It's about time someone told them to do so. I'd stick by that even if it was Hillary (shudder). A country like ours should have done something similar long before. I'm with you on the Paris deal though, that was skimmed over by him and I didnt like that. We've been through this with each other before regarding renewables and I think we agree it's out of the world leaders hands really. It comes down to the energy providers and those who provide/use the carbon fuel. Until that's gone, nothing will really change, so in my eyes, it's all just bluster and posturing until then. FFS is AKON the 'musician' can provide x amount of solar panels to provide energy for hundreds/thousands off his own back, then surely countries could solve all the energy problems. Solar arrays in the sahara could power most of europe.

 

Don't write off what he said about Manchester. Yes, any leader would and did react to it, but he actually reacted almost personally to it, calling them out as losers, rather than just the usual regurgitated soundbites. He seems to actually want to do something about it. Even if he doesnt in the end, he at least gives a glimmer of hope (whatever it may be in the long run, we dont know) by putting a foot down, and believe it or not, people respond to that. People are sick of the same old soft soundbites and facebook profile picture flags etc lol 

 

The Russia stuff has faded in to the background as no actual evidence has come about. The supposed memo between Comey and Trump which was supposed to be huge hasnt been provided within the specified time either. I'm not saying that parts of Trumps collective didn't have some form of connection with the Russians, but im still waiting for any actual evidence. 2 white supremacist murders....jeez Mac, you're better than that, that seemed a bit of a cheap shop to bring up white supremacists here. I'll condemn that like the next man, but theres the murder of Democrat Seth Rich being buried too. (Those two lines are a different line though so lets not go off on a tangent).

 

Yep, I'll agree there, it's not a giant success, but when you're doing so many foreign trips in such a short space of time, especially between such heated areas will never be 100% success. The point is, is that it has been decent, and nowhere near the tornado the media have made. 

I appreciate your appreciation, thank you, its taken on board, thank you :) 

 

Luckily, the strongarms around Trump seem to be loosening their grip one way or another, but I'm still with you that I don't like his/their attitude towards the environment.

 

Sorry for such an essay. I just got on a roll. I blame the pint at lunch. It's mainly, probably just waffle. Im sure it could have been condensed. Sorry everyone! :nigel:

 

 

 

I like the comprehensive quality of your responses - don't apologise for that! :thumbup:

 

Yeah, the Saudi stuff is annoying realpolitik, but you know what the solution to that is don't you? Get into a position where you're no longer reliant on their oil! (And no, don't replace it entirely with large-scale fracking, that's not going to end well.)

 

I can certainly also give whoever organised the tour and the stops a pat on the back as MC said - there was a lot of different visits to a lot of places that don't really like each other, so kudos to the organisers for that.

 

The Vatican photo thing was something of a stitch-up, I agree there - like you said, there were lots of other pics with the Pope smiling. Like I said, I just hope Trump took something from that visit about considering everyone.

 

Regarding the Paris deal, I think the world leaders have more control than you think. They could break the energy companies if they presented a united front, encourage people to favour renewables and starve the hydrocarbon energy industry of their business except where needed to make plastics etc - but they are not doing so, and Trump right now is at the vanguard of that. While even China and India are breaking out the solar panels, he's looking to boost the coal industry! It's a terrible move.

 

The response to the Manchester incident was certainly different, I'll give him that. Whether it leads to much, only time will tell.

 

The Russia stuff is still bubbling under the surface, but yes - hard evidence is needed.

 

I don't really see how bringing up the Oregon murders was a cheap shot - Trump has been quick enough to speak out on other hate crimes but when this one happened he's said nothing and the guy who did it is most certainly a white supremacist. So...I think at least a little criticism is warranted there. And yes, the Seth Rich murder stinks to high heaven too, though of course the alt-right are using that to fund their own little conspiracy theories.

 

For me though, as I said above the environment and science policy of this administration is the really heinous part of it and the one that could cause serious long term damage, and for that reason alone I'm going to be pretty vociferous. They could be the most socially liberal admin in US history (they're not, but that's another discussion) but as long as their policy on those two things remains the same whatever else they do honestly doesn't matter long term - people don't see that it's important, consider it abstract...but we're talking serious, long term global changes here in a way no other issue reaches. It's frustrating to see people dismiss it.

 

 

 

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