Rudkin

[Rusko187]

4 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

Thats an interesting point cus I think the opposite ..    poor old Shakey was feeling the pressure build up and played Iheanacho against WBA ...   nothing wrong with that and we all saw how he performed ...   but it probably added to us losing the match ...   if he had played Shinji ..  MAYBE we wouldn't have lost and MAYBE he would still be in a job ..   (albeit a dead man walking).   I just hope the new guy is given a period of time to experiment or the same may happen again ...    and who is the man who influences this ..  JOHN FOOKIN RUDKIN.  

We're talking about the match against WBA right? We didn't lose did we?

[Countryfox]

1 minute ago, Rusko187 said:

We're talking about the match against WBA right? We didn't lose did we?

Oops !! ..   ...      But you get my point ...    (Well spotted by the way !) ..

[volpeazzurro]

2 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

Thats an interesting point cus I think the opposite ..    poor old Shakey was feeling the pressure build up and played Iheanacho against WBA ...   nothing wrong with that and we all saw how he performed ...   but it probably added to us losing the match ...   if he had played Shinji ..  MAYBE we wouldn't have lost and MAYBE he would still be in a job ..   (albeit a dead man walking).   I just hope the new guy is given a period of time to experiment or the same may happen again ...    and who is the man who influences this ..  JOHN FOOKIN RUDKIN.  

In fairness Countryfox I think you make a fair point regarding Iheanacho and Okazaki and it crossed my mind also if I'm honest. However, I don't think the hoof up the pitch approach to  Vardy (who is capable of playing in more than one way) and the one 442 formation Shakespeare stuck with would ever bring out the best in Iheanacho, Iborra, Slimani , Ndidi and even Silva. I  also agree with the new guy whoever it is being given time. It's a huge decision and I only know of the one's I definatly wouldn't want. Having said that, like transfers,  we can't have who don't want to come or won't be released. 

[Countryfox]

2 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

In fairness Countryfox I think you make a fair point regarding Iheanacho and Okazaki and it crossed my mind also if I'm honest. However, I don't think the hoof up the pitch approach to  Vardy (who is capable of playing in more than one way) and the one 442 formation Shakespeare stuck with would ever bring out the best in Iheanacho, Iborra, Slimani , Ndidi and even Silva. I  also agree with the new guy whoever it is being given time. It's a huge decision and I only know of the one's I definatly wouldn't want. Having said that, like transfers,  we can't have who don't want to come or won't be released. 

 

Yes I agree with you but if we are to reshape the side, or a least develop a Plan B, the manger must be given time ...   I don't think Shakey was afforded that luxury.  As DoF Rudkin should have given him support ...   i THINK he just left him to it and Shakey could tell that that whatever happened he was ultimately going to go.  Now we haven't got a Plan B, we are hovering over the relegation zone , and are starting to get a reputation as a hire and fire club.   Its just not right and all roads lead to Rome ..  ie Rudkin.

[volpeazzurro]

6 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

 

Yes I agree with you but if we are to reshape the side, or a least develop a Plan B, the manger must be given time ...   I don't think Shakey was afforded that luxury.  As DoF Rudkin should have given him support ...   i THINK he just left him to it and Shakey could tell that that whatever happened he was ultimately going to go.  Now we haven't got a Plan B, we are hovering over the relegation zone , and are starting to get a reputation as a hire and fire club.   Its just not right and all roads lead to Rome ..  ie Rudkin.

Shakespeare from his time last year and this season though was showing no signs of changing anything however. I also worried about his reliance of the same guard possibly out of loyalty perhaps. Iborra is made for a 3. Slimani and Iheanacho aren't used to being players having the ball hoofed up to them Steve Howard style haha! Gray and to a lesser extent perhaps Chilwell are getting impatient. Maguire may even be better in a back 3 who knows. I think with last season and this Shakey had enough time.

 

We've had 2 quick managers, the sacking of the first one Ranieri, rightly or wrongly was the controversial one. I was always of the impression that Shakespeare never really was the choice of the owners and that they just couldn't get who they really wanted. It's difficult to have a plan B though in fairness, they might have had all sorts of names in mind you can only gauge interest so far without a formal approach. Whilst he's not a long term solution at least Appleton has had some managerial experience albeit taking on poisened chalices appears to be a hobby of his!

[Countryfox]

2 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

Shakespeare from his time last year and this season though was showing no signs of changing anything however. I also worried about his reliance of the same guard possibly out of loyalty perhaps. Iborra is made for a 3. Slimani and Iheanacho aren't used to being players having the ball hoofed up to them Steve Howard style haha! Gray and to a lesser extent perhaps Chilwell are getting impatient. Maguire may even be better in a back 3 who knows. I think with last season and this Shakey had enough time.

 

We've had 2 quick managers, the sacking of the first one Ranieri, rightly or wrongly was the controversial one. I was always of the impression that Shakespeare never really was the choice of the owners and that they just couldn't get who they really wanted. It's difficult to have a plan B though in fairness, they might have had all sorts of names in mind you can only gauge interest so far without a formal approach. Whilst he's not a long term solution at least Appleton has had some managerial experience albeit taking on poisened chalices appears to be a hobby of his!

 

To be fair to Shakey his remit last season was keep the club up and see how far we could go in the Champions league (Ranieri was probably rightly sacked imo) and he did that in Spades by cleverly getting the players to play for him.    With the start we had this season, fixture wise, and the complete fook up on the transfer front I don't believe he has had enough time ...   he has made some mistakes and could have done some things differently but overall the pressure killed him and that is what I think was unfair, wrong and bad for this football club.   Who is accountable for that ...  ???  

[volpeazzurro]

22 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

 

To be fair to Shakey his remit last season was keep the club up and see how far we could go in the Champions league (Ranieri was probably rightly sacked imo) and he did that in Spades by cleverly getting the players to play for him.    With the start we had this season, fixture wise, and the complete fook up on the transfer front I don't believe he has had enough time ...   he has made some mistakes and could have done some things differently but overall the pressure killed him and that is what I think was unfair, wrong and bad for this football club.   Who is accountable for that ...  ???  

He's accountable for his own pressure and failings. We certainly can't blame a DoF like we didn't say it was down to the DoF when we won the Premiership. With the exception of Kante,  he's arguably got a much better squad of players to chose from compared to Ranieri!

 

The first couple of results etc last year starting with Liverpool  (just imo not fact), was more down to the media treatment of the players, I think they'd have produced the same performances for Filbert Fox, and you'd hardly need much encouragement in the Champions League when players like Marhez were on International show. Then it went down hill with both results but more importantly performances until the final drubbing by Spurs. He failed to drop underperforming players like Marhez, he showed no bottle, influence or tactical no us. 

 

This season his poor substitutions, formations and team selections have been his undoing. He's been inept and found out. You could blame the DoF and owners for giving him the position in the first place perhaps (though most people on here were in agreement at the time), but you can't blame them for his blind failings I don't think. As for pressure,  if he can't take it,  he's not management material. All sounds very harsh as I'm sure he's a decent likeable man. Mind you, some of the best managers I've worked for have been complete bastards haha!

Edited 23 October 2017 by volpeazzurro

[yorkie1999]

18 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

He's accountable for his own pressure and failings. We certainly can't blame a DoF like we didn't say it was down to the DoF when we won the Premiership. With the exception of Kante,  he's arguably got a much better squad of players to chose from compared to Ranieri!

 

The first couple of results etc last year starting with Liverpool  (just imo not fact), was more down to the media treatment of the players, I think they'd have produced the same performances for Filbert Fox, and you'd hardly need much encouragement in the Champions League when players like Marhez were on International show. Then it went down hill with both results but more importantly performances until the final drubbing by Spurs. He failed to drop underperforming players like Marhez, he showed no bottle, influence or tactical no us. 

 

This season his poor substitutions, formations and team selections have been his undoing. He's been inept and found out. You could blame the DoF and owners for giving him the position in the first place perhaps (though most people on here were in agreement at the time), but you can't blame them for his blind failings I don't think. As for pressure,  if he can't take it,  he's not management material. All sounds very harsh as I'm sure he's a decent likeable man. Mind you, some of the best managers I've worked for have been complete bastards haha!

I think Mahrez is and will always be a difficult choice on the team sheet as he can produce a goal from nothing yet have a crap game otherwise. How do you drop a player like that when at the end of the day, one goal is worth millions.

[ZeGuy]

23 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

I think Mahrez is and will always be a difficult choice on the team sheet as he can produce a goal from nothing yet have a crap game otherwise. How do you drop a player like that when at the end of the day, one goal is worth millions.

You can only drop him when you have (an)other(s) player(s) with the same quality but more consistent and/or having enough points in the bag. Which we don't.and he has been alright this season to be fair.

[Foxy-Lady]

36 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

He failed to drop underperforming players like Marhez, he showed no bottle, influence or tactical no us. 

Bit harsh on Shakey this point!

 

I made the point 'several' weeks ago on a separate forum that Shakey was probably put in a no-win situation with the failed Mahrez transfer as we would be unlikley to get a £45m offer in the Jan window if we dropped him now so might even have been under pressure from above to ensure we get him playing well again in order to maximise his transfer value in January (ie >£38m which was the best offer in Aug!).

Player clearly didnt want to be here so his only motivation for playing well would be to engineer a move....and by not playing him, his sale value potentially falls and we get no benefit from him being here

 

"Damned if you do....and damned if you dont"

 

In my very humble opinion, selling him in Aug for £38m would have been the right thing for all concerned (Shakey, Mahrez, Club and Demarai Gray) but we were reluctant to part for a value that fell -£7m below our valuation.......even though the market didnt share that valuation.  If we get £45m in Jan then fair play to our owners for standing firm on this but if we dont (or he doesnt play well between now and then), then what exactly will we have gained from this...?

 

[volpeazzurro]

2 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

I think Mahrez is and will always be a difficult choice on the team sheet as he can produce a goal from nothing yet have a crap game otherwise. How do you drop a player like that when at the end of the day, one goal is worth millions.

Very true but it didn't stop Ranieri dropping him during our winning season and it worked. He could always have started with Marhez last year but taken him off if was having a shocker and didn't. We waited all season for him to produce his goals from nowhere and they never came. You can forgive a player lack of form but not lack of effort. This aspect was not missed by previously interested clubs for his signature. 

[Countryfox]

2 hours ago, volpeazzurro said:

He's accountable for his own pressure and failings. We certainly can't blame a DoF like we didn't say it was down to the DoF when we won the Premiership. With the exception of Kante,  he's arguably got a much better squad of players to chose from compared to Ranieri!

 

The first couple of results etc last year starting with Liverpool  (just imo not fact), was more down to the media treatment of the players, I think they'd have produced the same performances for Filbert Fox, and you'd hardly need much encouragement in the Champions League when players like Marhez were on International show. Then it went down hill with both results but more importantly performances until the final drubbing by Spurs. He failed to drop underperforming players like Marhez, he showed no bottle, influence or tactical no us. 

 

This season his poor substitutions, formations and team selections have been his undoing. He's been inept and found out. You could blame the DoF and owners for giving him the position in the first place perhaps (though most people on here were in agreement at the time), but you can't blame them for his blind failings I don't think. As for pressure,  if he can't take it,  he's not management material. All sounds very harsh as I'm sure he's a decent likeable man. Mind you, some of the best managers I've worked for have been complete bastards haha!

 

Of course he is accountable for his own actions and failings ..   but the key point here is that I believe he was not given any help by those above (ie his direct boss the DoF).   Shakespeare was in his first managerial position and needed encouragement and solid backing ...   Rudkin didn't want him and probably couldn't hide that fact ..   we all know and probably a lot of people on here have experienced it ..  when someone above you doesn't like you, 9 times out of 10, you've had it !    I've worked with people who have had breakdowns and one who wanted to top himself cus of negative pressure being exerted from above ...   don't underestimate how powerful that can be.  These are extremes but without help he was always going to fail ...   and fail he did.  I do honestly despite some of the things he did feel very sorry for him and think he should have been given a little longer and set a deadline ...  he was no doubt asked what he wanted and he said Silva please and don't sell DD ..   he got neither.  Speculation to some extent I know but as I keep saying ..  something is not right and unless we sort it I really don't like where this club is heading ..   the 'new' manager may help that to change but equally may just be a plaster to stick over the cracks.

[vanity]

14 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

You're acting like Silva is the first mistake.

Fair enough. What are the mistakes Rudkin is individually responsible for that are more than message board rumor?

[volpeazzurro]

26 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

 

Of course he is accountable for his own actions and failings ..   but the key point here is that I believe he was not given any help by those above (ie his direct boss the DoF).   Shakespeare was in his first managerial position and needed encouragement and solid backing ...   Rudkin didn't want him and probably couldn't hide that fact ..   we all know and probably a lot of people on here have experienced it ..  when someone above you doesn't like you, 9 times out of 10, you've had it !    I've worked with people who have had breakdowns and one who wanted to top himself cus of negative pressure being exerted from above ...   don't underestimate how powerful that can be.  These are extremes but without help he was always going to fail ...   and fail he did.  I do honestly despite some of the things he did feel very sorry for him and think he should have been given a little longer and set a deadline ...  he was no doubt asked what he wanted and he said Silva please and don't sell DD ..   he got neither.  Speculation to some extent I know but as I keep saying ..  something is not right and unless we sort it I really don't like where this club is heading ..   the 'new' manager may help that to change but equally may just be a plaster to stick over the cracks.

I also feel sorry for him to a certain extent but having been in the game all these years, he would surely know what he was getting into, he wasn't forced to take the job and nor should he need a dof to hold his hand. Too much involvement by the dof would have people attacking him for interfering.

 

We were after Silva a long time ago and for me, even though Drinkwater left, he had an as good if not better midfield to pick from compared to some of our counterparts. To play a midfield 2 of James and a 20yrs old kid Ndidi against a 3 of Matic, Mata and Pogba, an expensive and internationally experienced United midfield was amateurish, as were his substitutions against Arsenal. Rather than take the hint and change things against an equally robust Chelsea midfield, it was more of the same. Even Huddersfield outhought him with the on paper inferior players they had (no offence to them, I'm an admirer). I wonder if Wagner with such riches as us would be doing the same? Sadly, he's the author of his own downfall by living in the past. 

[vanity]

9 hours ago, Dames said:

 

Its not pretending at all when its his responsibility remember the statement when Steve Walsh left? It said Rudkin would be taking up his responsibilities too.

 

It is a failed window everybody and his dog knew we were light in quality in CM before we let Mendy and Drinkwater go yet they were allowed to leave and were not properly replaced. Don’t want to continually tread over the same ground with the Silva debacle but that was handled in the amatuer way. 

 

As for all the players signed in the past 3 windows on average there is only one change in the lineup from the team that won the title so that suggests the players coming in are not of a high enough standard.

"everybody and his dog knew we were light in quality in CM before we let Mendy and Drinkwater go"

 

That is revisionist history. Pure fiction. We were sitting around wondering wtf we were going to do with so many CMs, talking about how we we're going to a back 3 bc we had stockpiled so many CMs: Drinkwater. Iborra. Ndidi. Matty James. Mendy. Andy King. That lad we sent to Darby. 

 

In retrospect, Mendy would've been great to keep, but you cannot plan to lose two starting-quality MFs when sending Mendy out. Absolutely nobody runs a team anticipating losing two starters, 5 CMs is more than enough. So let's not pretend we had some massive collective worry about the CMs before the Silva situation. We didn't.

 

As for who has played from the transfer windows, that is much more Shakey's loyalty to the old guard and team chemistry than an issue of quality. The new manager will play the best players with any luck, and that will be self-evident. No need to argue on that, we disagree, and it will be resolved this season, so we'll see.

Edited 23 October 2017 by vanity

[vanity]

5 hours ago, Foxy-Lady said:

Are you sure about this???      

 

We dont even have any world class players in our 1st X1 (Silva and mahrez on top-form possibly being the exceptions) so not quite sure how you can describe our depth as "world-class"   How many of our players would currently be targets for any of Europes elite clubs (vardy??)?

 

I dont wish to appear negative but I do think that part of the current problem at LCFC is that too many fans have simply lost touch with reality and this is a perfect example of that.  With our resources and players, we are a mid-table club and that is eaxactly where we will finish this seasson....even if my mum was appointed as the next manager!

The term "world-class" is subjective. If your standard is "they would start for Real Madrid," then no, we likely have no "world-class" players. But if you look at our depth from the standpoint of the club's history, the talent on the bench is outrageous. Let's not focus overly on a throwaway bit of puffery I included after the substantive portion of my post, it was only meant to reflect the fact that we have players like Iheanacho, Silva, Slimani, Dragovic, and Demari Gray on the bench more often than not.

 

[Burmesefox]

The anagramed acronym of " A director of football" is FOAD...just saying.....I'll get me coat. 

 

 

[vanity]

5 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

It's not just the Silva transfer though is it? Every transfer window we are pathetic in the final few days frantically trying to get players in with zero planning. The last 2 summers we've spent all of August with minimal transfer links and our managers making vague comments that we're happy with the squad but if we can get some in then we will, then suddenly come the closing few days we start trying to sign players again yet we are notoriously poor at getting deals done quickly. 

Mate, when in the window did we sign Maguire? How about Iborra? How about Iheanacho? This last summer we had an enormous number of transfer links, and our back office not only did some shrewd bits of business, but they did it EARLY. So let's stop pretending we ignore the window until  the last few days then sign anyone we can, this summer we clearly plotted the overwhelming majority of moves well in advance, the exception  being Silva, as we didn't  want him if we had Drinky. We were not in control of what Chelsea bid for Drinkwater. We cannot speed that up unless we drop our pants and take a crap offer, which would be just as unforgivable as the Silva situation. We had a deal set with Sporting CP, and then they delayed the transfer by pulling a d-bag move of demanding more money after the deal was agreed in principle. So let's stop imagining Rudkin has complete control over every aspect of every negotiation -- he doesn't -- or that he doesn't have a master he answers to -- he does. He is a link in the chain, an important link to be sure, but it seems a vast oversimplification to blame everything from scouting players to negotiating contracts to submitting faxes to how players perform.on the pitch on one man.

[KingsX]

3 hours ago, Foxy-Lady said:

In my very humble opinion, selling him in Aug for £38m would have been the right thing for all concerned (Shakey, Mahrez, Club and Demarai Gray) but we were reluctant to part for a value that fell -£7m below our valuation.......even though the market didnt share that valuation.  If we get £45m in Jan then fair play to our owners for standing firm on this but if we dont (or he doesnt play well between now and then), then what exactly will we have gained from this...?

Three points Saturday at Swansea, for starters.

[Ric Flair]

31 minutes ago, vanity said:

"everybody and his dog knew we were light in quality in CM before we let Mendy and Drinkwater go"

 

That is revisionist history. Pure fiction. We were sitting around wondering wtf we were going to do with so many CMs, talking about how we we're going to a back 3 bc we had stockpiled so many CMs: Drinkwater. Iborra. Ndidi. Matty James. Mendy. Andy King. That lad we sent to Darby. 

 

In retrospect, Mendy would've been great to keep, but you cannot plan to lose two starting-quality MFs when sending Mendy out. Absolutely nobody runs a team anticipating two injuries to starters, 5 CMs is more than enough. So let's not pretend we had some massive collective worry about the CMs before the Silva situation. We didn't.

 

As for who has played from the transfer windows, that is much more Shakey's loyalty to the old guard and team chemistry than an issue of quality. The new manager will play the best players with any luck, and that will be self-evident. No need to argue on that, we disagree, and it will be resolved this season, so we'll see.

5 CM's is not enough when all of them are defensive midfielders and don't have an ounce of creativity in them. We persist with 4-4-2 which is painfully incompatible with our available central midfield options, we either get over ran or we get so bogged down there's no time on the ball or ability to create from the centre of the park. We rely on Mahrez and that's it but if Mahrez is nullified then our team simply has to find other avenues of creativity and our central midfielders cannot do it. We could have 85 defensive midfielders and it still wouldn't be enough midfielders to put together a good enough team.

[vanity]

12 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

5 CM's is not enough when all of them are defensive midfielders and don't have an ounce of creativity in them. We persist with 4-4-2 which is painfully incompatible with our available central midfield options, we either get over ran or we get so bogged down there's no time on the ball or ability to create from the centre of the park. We rely on Mahrez and that's it but if Mahrez is nullified then our team simply has to find other avenues of creativity and our central midfielders cannot do it. We could have 85 defensive midfielders and it still wouldn't be enough midfielders to put together a good enough team.

I was responding to us not having enough CMs. I don't necessarily disagree with your argument about creativity, which is why I have been saying for ages we need to invest in an elite WB to pair with Gray going forward, someone with creativity on the ball who can also defend. And I further agree that with our personnel, and with the trend of sides moving to 3 in the back, our 4-4-2 would need a Kante to have any shot of working regularly, and that we seem to have forgotten we had two DMs when we won who could pass the ball and provide some creativity, and both were better on the ball than Ndidi and James. And that when we lost Kante, DD had to do more work, he lost the freedom to come fwd, and teams started doubling Mahrez, and we lost our ability to link the attack, especially when Shinji played instead of Slimani, who is a threat to score and to track and makes it more difficult to focus the defense on Mahrez, which was why we would suddenly have scoring opportunities when Slim would get on the field, the defense was forced to spread itself more widely. Hey man, I am right there with you. But this is a long conversation, as we could deal with that in a variety of ways. The way we chose was Iheanacho, to replace Shinji and provide a second real threat up top to prevent teams bottling up Mahrez by shading off Shinji AND bringing in Iborra who can play DM/CM/AM with equal aplomb, but injuries have derailed that to this point.

 

But when Silva is available, we'll move to a 3-man MF with Iborra and Ndidi, Mahrez will hopefully go in January, and we can focus on developing Gray and figuring out a pairing up.top that will work  -- I love Vardy, but he isn't scoring goals and nobody can play with him, so we should see a bit of Iheanacho and Slim up top, see what that gets us. Starting tmw vs Leeds.

[KingsX]

1 hour ago, vanity said:

What are the mistakes Rudkin is individually responsible for that are more than message board rumor?

 

Jon assumed the Club’s Director of Football responsibilities in December, following the departure of Terry Robinson, and will now take on the role on a permanent basis. 

Applying his considerable experience in player development, built during a 16-year association with Leicester City, Jon will oversee the Club’s entire football operation through Academy, Development and First Team levels and the development and application of the Club’s football philosophy. 

Jon will also maintain his position as head of the Club’s successful Category 1 Academy – a position he has held since 2003. 

 

That is the Club’s own statement of fact, not rumor.  Rudkin is responsible for all planning and execution on the football side of LCFC.  He has the remit to hire, fire, organize and direct, and with that comes the responsibility.

 

As director of an organization, I was personally responsible to our customers for the actions and production of every person in that org chart.  I approved their hiring; I led and directed their supervisors and managers; hopefully I made positive changes when problems showed changes were needed.

 

It never occurred to me I was not “individually” responsible.  I was paid for the sole purpose of being responsible.

[Foxy-Lady]

1 hour ago, KingsX said:

Three points Saturday at Swansea, for starters.

Three points attibutable to Riyad Mahrez...?!?    In which case it looks like my theory that we might struggle to get £45m for him in the Jan transfer window is already completely absurd then and I bow to you sir for pointing out the flaws in my logic

 

while we are at it, lets also immediately give the managers job to Michael Appleton if we are taking such a short-sighted view as he is also surely repsonsiible for the Three points as well and he now has a 100% record which is better than every other manager in the PL!   What are we waiting for...?!?

[Foxy-Lady]

1 hour ago, vanity said:

The term "world-class" is subjective. If your standard is "they would start for Real Madrid," then no, we likely have no "world-class" players. But if you look at our depth from the standpoint of the club's history, the talent on the bench is outrageous. Let's not focus overly on a throwaway bit of puffery I included after the substantive portion of my post, it was only meant to reflect the fact that we have players like Iheanacho, Silva, Slimani, Dragovic, and Demari Gray on the bench more often than not.

 

No offence intended from my previous post and I agree entirley it is one of the strongest benches in the clubs hisotory...... but that is a very far cry from making it "world-class" by any definition.

Its a  big leap of faith to say that just bacause Slimani is better than the likes of Trevor Benjamin, it makes him world-class. 

[Foxy-Lady]

2 minutes ago, pmcla26 said:

The only problem with that is the form of Mo Salah and the comparisons with him who cost £35 million... Think people might use that against us

Good point on the Salah comparative.....although i was also being sarcastic in my point on £45m for Mahrez.