Realist Guy In The Room Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 Watching that clip is awful. The guy looks absolutely torn, worn down and defeated and has to answer questions on whether he'd feel guilty if a patient died whilst they were on strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 According to BBC News, although other parties aren't planning to restart campaigning yet, UKIP has unilaterally decided to proceed with its manifesto launch tomorrow. As their recent policy announcements have focused on tighter immigration controls and a public ban on the burqa, this has the potential to be massively controversial, even if they handle it sensitively (a big ask). I have very mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I think campaigning SHOULD start again sooner rather than later or we're allowing terrorists to disrupt our democracy. It obviously shows proper respect to stop for a day or two. But what if there are more attacks in the next fortnight? Obviously, I vehemently hope that doesn't happen and any other terrorists are caught, as the Manchester outrage has been very upsetting, even from a distance. But further attacks can't be ruled out. Presumably there are truly extreme circumstances in which the election would have to be postponed, but we can't allow even 2 or 3 attacks to unbalance or halt democracy. On the other hand, I think it would be a lot better if all the parties agreed to restart campaigning at the same time. UKIP have a democratic right to campaign for tighter immigration and a ban on the burqa - and others have a democratic right to oppose it. I've no idea whether it will work for or against UKIP if they start again on their own. No doubt people who love their policies will be enthusiastic and people who hate them will be outraged. What about the majority in the middle? There's an obvious risk that it will inflame public debate so soon after the attack. There is a risk of acrimony over immigration, Muslims, terrorism and racism dominating the campaign for several days, with the big parties drawn in.... The campaign needs to continue - and to cover all issues. I just hope that it doesn't now get ugly and polarised, focusing too much on certain policies (race, immigration, security) and too little on others (Brexit, economy, tax, public services). Only the extremists (Islamists and racists) win if the debate becomes polarised and unbalanced. If UKIP plans to resume tomorrow, maybe the other parties should do likewise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Guy In The Room Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 The campaigns do need to be started again. Just not by UKIP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 I think a day is enough, it's strange we say they won't stop us going about our business and then we stop going about our business. Mike Gapes tweeted last night he would start today as that's the best way to show them they can't disrupt democracy. I totally agree with him. UKIP should campaign in exactly the same way they intended to campaign before, nothing should be ramped up, nothing should be ramped down. Was it the Spanish election that went ahead just a few days after the train bomb? It's possible we'll have another during the campaign and no doubt future elections will see similar things - we are just going to have to get on with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 3 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said: The campaigns do need to be started again. Just not by UKIP. Who should be allowed to restart it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Guy In The Room Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 4 minutes ago, MattP said: Who should be allowed to restart it? Sorry should have been clearer. No one party should be starting on their own. All should start or none at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 18 minutes ago, MattP said: I think a day is enough, it's strange we say they won't stop us going about our business and then we stop going about our business. Mike Gapes tweeted last night he would start today as that's the best way to show them they can't disrupt democracy. I totally agree with him. UKIP should campaign in exactly the same way they intended to campaign before, nothing should be ramped up, nothing should be ramped down. Was it the Spanish election that went ahead just a few days after the train bomb? It's possible we'll have another during the campaign and no doubt future elections will see similar things - we are just going to have to get on with it. I tend to agree. I'd forgotten about the Madrid train bombing. Just checked: 192 killed & 2000 injured 3 days before the election, which went ahead. It's unreasonable to expect UKIP not to mention immigration and burqas. Likewise, issues like immigration and security needed to be debated even before this attack. If UKIP do launch their manifesto tomorrow, it would be good if the big parties also restarted campaigning, but agreed to avoid those issues until next week. They could concentrate on tax, public services, leadership, Brexit, whatever.... I'm sure that it's naive to expect that to happen, though. I just hope things don't get too vitriolic - or that, if they do, it only lasts a couple of days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 They could set a day and aprox time ie. Friday from noon. They may arrive at locations at different times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 4 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: I tend to agree. I'd forgotten about the Madrid train bombing. Just checked: 192 killed & 2000 injured 3 days before the election, which went ahead. It's unreasonable to expect UKIP not to mention immigration and burqas. Likewise, issues like immigration and security needed to be debated even before this attack. If UKIP do launch their manifesto tomorrow, it would be good if the big parties also restarted campaigning, but agreed to avoid those issues until next week. They could concentrate on tax, public services, leadership, Brexit, whatever.... I'm sure that it's naive to expect that to happen, though. I just hope things don't get too vitriolic - or that, if they do, it only lasts a couple of days. Three days sounds about right, totally changed the election as well with the government being blamed as they went into Iraq. I can see it being vitriolic but a bit, but I think that would happen whether it started now or next Monday, we've just spent two days seeing pictures of children who have been killed in terrible circumstances, there is going to be a lot of anger. What the issues that are debated about will just play out but I don't think it takes a genius to know we are going to spending a lot of time on National Security. On a seperate issue I do feel sorry for Corbyn at times, one of his supporters has just been on the news (did you know there is a Jezza backpack avaliable?) - she's standing at the gates of Downing Street heckling soldiers whilst arguing with the police and it's going out to the nation, with friends like that etc - The Chinese tourists must be absolutely fascinated watching it. Can't find anything on youtube to upload as it's just happened but he political editor of LBC is following it with the video here - https://twitter.com/theousherwood?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 3 minutes ago, MattP said: Three days sounds about right, totally changed the election as well with the government being blamed as they went into Iraq. I can see it being vitriolic but a bit, but I think that would happen whether it started now or next Monday, we've just spent two days seeing pictures of children who have been killed in terrible circumstances, there is going to be a lot of anger. What the issues that are debated about will just play out but I don't think it takes a genius to know we are going to spending a lot of time on National Security. Having refreshed my memory, much of the loss of support for the outgoing Spanish government in that 2004 election was due to it blatantly lying about who had carried out the bombing. Knowing that its Iraq policy was controversial, the Govt tried to claim that ETA had done the bombing - but it was clear before the election that it was Al-Qaeda. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_general_election,_2004 Yes, the UK election debate was bound to get heated over immigration and Islamist terrorism at some point, even before Manchester - never mind now. But it might help the debate retain a bit of calm if that didn't start immediately with a shitstorm triggered by UKIP calling for a burqa ban and everyone else leaping around in outraged mutual recriminations. There's so much other important stuff to debate (Brexit, economy, tax, public services, care, leadership). It would be a massive shame if the atmosphere became toxic and dominated by race and security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 3 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Having refreshed my memory, much of the loss of support for the outgoing Spanish government in that 2004 election was due to it blatantly lying about who had carried out the bombing. Knowing that its Iraq policy was controversial, the Govt tried to claim that ETA had done the bombing - but it was clear before the election that it was Al-Qaeda. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_general_election,_2004 Yes, the UK election debate was bound to get heated over immigration and Islamist terrorism at some point, even before Manchester - never mind now. But it might help the debate retain a bit of calm if that didn't start immediately with a shitstorm triggered by UKIP calling for a burqa ban and everyone else leaping around in outraged mutual recriminations. There's so much other important stuff to debate (Brexit, economy, tax, public services, care, leadership). It would be a massive shame if the atmosphere became toxic and dominated by race and security. It's an easy issue to manipulate people on though, regardless of long-term importance in the grand scheme - highly emotionalist and divisive. So I wouldn't be all that surprised if it did end up taking precedence now this has happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry - LCFC Posted 24 May 2017 Author Share Posted 24 May 2017 10 minutes ago, leicsmac said: It's an easy issue to manipulate people on though, regardless of long-term importance in the grand scheme - highly emotionalist and divisive. So I wouldn't be all that surprised if it did end up taking precedence now this has happened. UKIP may well try for it, I don't think the other parties will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 1 minute ago, Harry - LCFC said: UKIP may well try for it, I don't think the other parties will. That UKIP may well try for it and will get media coverage (because nothing stokes the public consciousness and sells media like fear of an external threat) will make the others have to respond to it, so they might have no choice but to focus on it at least for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Guy In The Room Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 With emotions high, you'd be committing political suicide if you tried to score points over whats happened. I really hope this isnt used as a tool to win votes by any party. The way people analyse politics and politicians has never been so detailed. It would get jumped on very quickly and exposed for what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 4 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said: With emotions high, you'd be committing political suicide if you tried to score points over whats happened. I really hope this isnt used as a tool to win votes by any party. The way people analyse politics and politicians has never been so detailed. It would get jumped on very quickly and exposed for what it is. 2 I wish I had your faith in most people to do the work needed to have that happen, but some of the responses in the Manchester thread show that some folks are very happy for politicians to use this incident to push an agenda in the name of 'response'. If UKIP do decide to push their particular buttons I think they'll have a fair few people listening and nodding, which will mean the main parties will have to address it too (in order to negate that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 Fair play for people wanting change but... (It seems our club were a year too early for that slogan) Fake promises, lies, lies, lies, moan, moan, moan, outrage, outrage, outrage annnd repeat. No matter what party, nothing will change. Forget 'fake news' now everyone 'has a voice' on social media, everyone's a bleeding expert all of a sudden, I call it 'fake outrage', which is ironic as I get wound up, moan and outraged over people's fakeness! What makes me laugh is my polling station will be in a church...can anymore lies be told there?!! Mind you, I guess lies and preaching go hand in hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 30 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said: I really hope this isnt used as a tool to win votes by any party. The way people analyse politics and politicians has never been so detailed. It would get jumped on very quickly and exposed for what it is. Let's be honest, the Tories are going to go on national security now - of course they are, any party would in that situation when it benefits them. Labour would do the same, we had people dying in hospitals last time and didn't Miliband say something along the lines of them needing to "weaponise" the NHS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 Didn't the Falklands save Thatcher and help her get re-elected if I remember correctly the Tories were lagging behind in 'popularity' at the time. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/thatchers-march-to-war-in-the-falklands-won-an-election-and-her-funeral-will-process-to-the-same-8569007.html http://en.mercopress.com/2013/04/08/falklands-war-a-turning-point-for-margaret-thatcher-s-image-and-political-fortunes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 3 minutes ago, davieG said: Didn't the Falklands save Thatcher and help her get re-elected if I remember correctly the Tories were lagging behind in 'popularity' at the time. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/thatchers-march-to-war-in-the-falklands-won-an-election-and-her-funeral-will-process-to-the-same-8569007.html http://en.mercopress.com/2013/04/08/falklands-war-a-turning-point-for-margaret-thatcher-s-image-and-political-fortunes Foot and the Labour split at the time certainly didn't help, but yes - it did certainly help give a boost to the numbers. A good war/"uniting against an Other" has been used as a tactic to maintain power since the dawn of civilisation. Ask George Dubya how he got himself a second term. I don't know why people downplay the effect so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 Looks like labour and the greens are restarting tomoz/friday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 https://order-order.com/2017/05/24/corbynista-outside-downing-street-may-terrorist/ Absolute mentallist. Shouting at soldiers putting their life on the line to defend people, I know she's not representative of all his supporters she is by no means alone. His defeat really can't come quick enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 17 minutes ago, toddybad said: Looks like labour and the greens are restarting tomoz/friday National campaigning all resumes on Friday. Looking forward to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 19 minutes ago, MattP said: https://order-order.com/2017/05/24/corbynista-outside-downing-street-may-terrorist/ Absolute mentallist. Shouting at soldiers putting their life on the line to defend people, I know she's not representative of all his supporters she is by no means alone. His defeat really can't come quick enough. No, she's not, any more than that vile Hopkins woman isn't representative of all those on the right, but you don't mention her excesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 24 May 2017 Share Posted 24 May 2017 Just now, Buce said: No, she's not, any more than that vile Hopkins woman isn't representative of all those on the right, but you don't mention her excesses. I mentioned her in the Manchester thread just a few hours ago. The isn't about right or left though, it's the weird cult following some of these politicians now attract and the weirdos with it, Le Pen, Trump, Sanders and now Corbyn, they attract these sorts in the way political parties in general never seem to. A Jeremy Corbyn rucksack ffs. Has Hopkins ever came out for a certain party? If she has I've never seen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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