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Buce

Is it coz I is black?

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If there are proportionally fewer black player going into coaching, then that would be the place to start, with programs to encourage all players to consider coaching during their later years.

When it comes to jobs, there is something to be said for actively encouraging those preparing shortlists to have to put candidates on there with different backgrounds, whether that is race, nationality or gender.

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"Positive" discrimination is, by definition discrimination. The "positive" bit is just by way of excusing it. People should be judged on merit and they only earn "merit" by achieving things as players, managers, coaches, whatever.

The way forward is to get some qualifications, start near the bottom and work up as (and if) their talent allows it to happen. There's nothing hard about it. I really can't see any difference in having, say, Wes Morgan as manager or anyone else if they've done the groundwork and proved themselves capable.          

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1 minute ago, Thracian said:

"Positive" discrimination is, by definition discrimination. The "positive" bit is just by way of excusing it. People should be judged on merit and they only earn "merit" by achieving things as players, managers, coaches, whatever.

The way forward is to get some qualifications, start near the bottom and work up as (and if) their talent allows it to happen. There's nothing hard about it. I really can't see any difference in having, say, Wes Morgan as manager or anyone else if they've done the groundwork and proved themselves capable.          

Yes indeed, however if there is a feeling in football that black footballers in general don't want or choose to be coaches, and a feeling amongst black footballers that they wont get the opportunities, then you do actually have to take action to change those perceptions, else they become reality, and nothing changes.

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22 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

Fair point.

 

Can you name white managers that have arguably been given jobs over other more qualified and experienced white managers?

 

Just trying to ask the question from a different angle applying your criteria.

 

That's down to personal opinion on each individual managerial appointment, but yes, there have been several appointments made that i thought there were maybe better options. Bob Bradley getting the Swansea job is just one of many that springs to mind.

 

But my whole point is that there just aren't the black coaches around to turn into managers.

 

I challenge anyone to come up with a 10 man shortlist of potential successors to Shakespeare if he was to leave us in the summer. It would be very interesting to see how many of those 10 are black.

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54 minutes ago, Thracian said:

That sort of comment is part of the problem - whoever came up with the notion is actually suggesting that "black" is somehow inferior to what? White, yellow, dark brown, light brown? What nonsense, yet mugs will listen to and support such crap.   

Exactly.

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7 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Chris Hughton gets jobs because he's a good manager and a media friendly presence. Paul Ince gets nothing because the only thing he manages to be is a complete weapon.

At the moment, he is the black manager who wouldn't be out of place at a mid table Premier League club. There will be more in the future. I think Vincent Kompany has a brilliant football mind. He has the intelligence and leadership qualities required of a coach/manager, and Patrick Viera could very well become a top manager in this country, or one of the other major european top divisions. But as of this moment, there just aren't enough top quality black managers. They're not being discriminated against, the ones who have gone into coaching are simply not good enough.

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1 minute ago, TiffToff88 said:

 

That's down to personal opinion on each individual managerial appointment, but yes, there have been several appointments made that i thought there were maybe better options. Bob Bradley getting the Swansea job is just one of many that springs to mind.

 

But my whole point is that there just aren't the black coaches around to turn into managers.

 

I challenge anyone to come up with a 10 man shortlist of potential successors to Shakespeare if he was to leave us in the summer. It would be very interesting to see how many of those 10 are black.

 

Bob Bradley's  appointment just goes to show how limited opportunities are for English managers  regardless of Ethnicity, with the amount of foreign owners involved in football, Swansea's American owners went with an American, our Thai owners were swayed by the lure of Sven the fraud, Zola at Birmingham was just laughable.  Clement probably wouldn't have got the Swansea job if he hadn't been at Real Madrid. Silva at Hull is another opportunity denied a British manager.

 

A short list for the Leicester job could plausibly include Viera or Henry, maybe even Hughton.

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3 minutes ago, Captain... said:

 

Bob Bradley's  appointment just goes to show how limited opportunities are for English managers  regardless of Ethnicity, with the amount of foreign owners involved in football, Swansea's American owners went with an American, our Thai owners were swayed by the lure of Sven the fraud, Zola at Birmingham was just laughable.  Clement probably wouldn't have got the Swansea job if he hadn't been at Real Madrid. Silva at Hull is another opportunity denied a British manager.

 

A short list for the Leicester job could plausibly include Viera or Henry, maybe even Hughton.

Not sure about Henry. That would be another case of just going for a big name, such as the Zola example you mentioned. He has very little management experience, but i completely agree about Viera and Houghton. I'd be delighted if either of those are our next manager

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Just now, Swan Lesta said:

Exactly what?

 

Where an earth did you get the idea you can't identify a black person as being 'black' - I mean really? Do you know any black people? 

You're taking my point all wrong,  he's describing an ethnic group having hardly any representatives at football management and the saying its a racist issue, well it's not. It's just how it is. Tell me the name of a black manager right now who could take over at leicester. I bet you can't, why's that, is it because of racist football chairmen not giving them the chance or is it because there arn't any.

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1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I hate the idea of quotas. They're doing it with women in the board room at it's just wrong. 

That is a slightly different issue, boardrooms are generally filled with old white middle to upper class males a number of which still  have outdated views and attitudes and will only support the promotion to board level of white middle to upper class males without someone forcing their hands will continue in this way until they retire. This could be 30-40 years until a meritocracy replaces cronyism and nepotism that is still rife in today's boardroom.

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1 minute ago, yorkie1999 said:

You're taking my point all wrong,  he's describing an ethnic group having hardly any representatives at football management and the saying its a racist issue, well it's not. It's just how it is. Tell me the name of a black manager right now who could take over at leicester. I bet you can't, why's that, is it because of racist football chairmen not giving them the chance or is it because there arn't any.

There have already been a few mentioned in this thread. Patrick Viera, Chris Houghton. Theres 2, Twice as many as you asked for.

 

I'm sure most leicester fans would be happy with those appointments

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8 minutes ago, TiffToff88 said:

Not sure about Henry. That would be another case of just going for a big name, such as the Zola example you mentioned. He has very little management experience, but i completely agree about Viera and Houghton. I'd be delighted if either of those are our next manager

Henry had been working with Arsenal's youth academy for a few years gaining his badges, he left for Belgium when Arsene wouldn't let him continue whilst doing his tv work, saying he had to dedicate himself full time to the job, this was despite offering to work for free and coach their strikers. He is serious about becoming a manager, but it is probably too soon for Leicester.

 

Wikipedia is not very up to date on coaching experience which is why I don't want to completely discredit Yorke based on his Wikipedia page.

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36 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

If there are proportionally fewer black player going into coaching, then that would be the place to start, with programs to encourage all players to consider coaching during their later years.

When it comes to jobs, there is something to be said for actively encouraging those preparing shortlists to have to put candidates on there with different backgrounds, whether that is race, nationality or gender.

 

We don't need pinko commies like you coming on here with your lefty solutions! :ph34r:

 

First you're advocating sensible policies to integrate NHS and social care, now you're making reasonable suggestions about employment practices......and you're worried about Ken's drinking?!? :D

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Surely the number of black managers in the game will slowly increase naturally over time as the number of black players retire?

 

There aren't really floods of young British managers in the game. Nigel Pearson was considered a reasonably young manager, he's in his fifties, what was the ratio of black/white players in the league when he played?

 

You can't say X% of current players are black so X% of current managers should be when clearly the league is much more diverse now than it was when Arry, Pulis or Big Sam were playing.

 

Always seemed like a strange argument to me. Surely there's so much money in football, so much demand for success that it cultivates a meritocracy out of necessity? If you're a football chairman desperate for success do you not just hire the best man for the job out of an overwhelming desire to win?

 

Would one of the most successful and highly rated managers in the top flight be from a country (Argentina) with such a fractious relationship with the UK if football chairmen were so deeply prejudiced?

 

Dunno.

 

Oh and the Rooney rule is enormously racist. I'm not black, maybe my view would be different if I was, I don't know. But personally I'd be hugely offended if someone only offered me a job to fill a quota.

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2 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

We don't need pinko commies like you coming on here with your lefty solutions! :ph34r:

 

First you're advocating sensible policies to integrate NHS and social care, now you're making reasonable suggestions about employment practices......and you're worried about Ken's drinking?!? :D

I wondered this? Though merging social care and the NHS does sound a tad like right wing develoution approaches!

 

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17 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

You're taking my point all wrong,  he's describing an ethnic group having hardly any representatives at football management and the saying its a racist issue, well it's not. It's just how it is. Tell me the name of a black manager right now who could take over at leicester. I bet you can't, why's that, is it because of racist football chairmen not giving them the chance or is it because there arn't any.

Sure - im not suggesting it's an issue of racism necessarily. What I am saying is that it warrants further inquiry.

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19 minutes ago, Captain... said:

That is a slightly different issue, boardrooms are generally filled with old white middle to upper class males a number of which still  have outdated views and attitudes and will only support the promotion to board level of white middle to upper class males without someone forcing their hands will continue in this way until they retire. This could be 30-40 years until a meritocracy replaces cronyism and nepotism that is still rife in today's boardroom.

Should be the job of non Execs to challenge the board and their ways of working - not just appoint more women. But you're right, it's a slightly different issue...

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1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

Yes indeed, however if there is a feeling in football that black footballers in general don't want or choose to be coaches, and a feeling amongst black footballers that they wont get the opportunities, then you do actually have to take action to change those perceptions, else they become reality, and nothing changes.

Ummm, if they're the sort who back out at the first hurdle, I'm not sure it says much for their chances of being outstanding managers.

 

People earn respect through their actions and achievements - it's not really something that can (or should) be contrived through policy or legislation.

 

Taken to the nth degree we'd have to count up the number of league teams and have someone of a different ethnic background to manage each and how crazy would that be?

 

Some try to see an issue when  there isn't one, perhaps for their own strategic reasons. I can't imagine it ever mattering if my manager was white, black, yellow or brown  if he was good. That, and fair which is connected to being good.

 

Nothing and no-one stops black people or anyone else from taking their badges or sitting for qualifications.

 

But I'm not convinced hand-holding, or assisted passage,  is beneficial for aspiring managers or coaches.

 

People need determination and a certain strength of character to be good leaders and leading people requires probably more skills - and certainly different skills - to being a good player. We have accommodated contrived leaders in the military in the past, rather than leaders who were there on merit, and what a mess that turned out at times.

 

Black footballers have made it as players easily enough, which doesn't suggest there's any built-in bias at all. Either in the clubs or on the terraces.

 

So i don't see why their not making it as football managers to any great degree is down to bias suddenly becoming apparent.

 

Chris Powell serves as a bit of an example. He's been accommodated many times in a coaching role. Some even suggested he should be manager here at one time. But where was the evidence? What has he achieved managerially or as a coach to make him Premiership material?

 

No way has he been "biased" downwards. If he'd showed some briliance he'd likely have been fast-tracked quicker than most. But in the end people will come through at the top end, and will do so on merit I hope. 

 

 

 

              

 

     

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