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sdkessler

Should Leicester try this 3-4-3 formation next season?

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Unlike what I've read here, with a 3-4-3 you need very aggressive, very good defenders.  It has been used in Italy effectively because they concentrate on their defense.  Right now  few English teams are suited for that system.

We are definitely not suited for it, at the moment.

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2 minutes ago, Sionnach gorm said:

Unlike what I've read here, with a 3-4-3 you need very aggressive, very good defenders.  It has been used in Italy effectively because they concentrate on their defense.  Right now  few English teams are suited for that system.

We are definitely not suited for it, at the moment.

Depends if Riyad stays or not. That formation should get the best out of him as he can stay higher up the field, if he leaves I can't see us playing it.

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12 minutes ago, AmarteyAndChill said:

Depends if Riyad stays or not. That formation should get the best out of him as he can stay higher up the field, if he leaves I can't see us playing it.

I agree in part, but without some serious defenders I just can't see it being implemented.  I still believe that our biggest problem this year was our defense.  We just bled goals. How did we let the spuds get 6 on us?  Still can't get over it!

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3 minutes ago, Sionnach gorm said:

I agree in part, but without some serious defenders I just can't see it being implemented.  I still believe that our biggest problem this year was our defense.  We just bled goals. How did we let the spuds get 6 on us?  Still can't get over it!

Spurs are quality and we were missing our best 2 CBs and Drinkwater. Drinkwater, Morgan and Huth are all leaders aswell. Didn't help that we went for it and had about 8 attackers on the pitch. I don't blame shakey at all for trying to get something from the game rather than keep it tight and try not to concede.

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  • 1 month later...

I think a 3-5-2 could work well for us with some of the players we are linked with. I was pretty bored so I wrote this up. I've assumed Mahrez and Mendy are leaving.

 

           Vardy          Slimani

                 Boudebouz

 Chilwell                  Albrighton

              Ndidi        Iborra

      Gibson    Huth    Maguire 

                    Kasper

 

Bench: Iheanacho (ST, SS), Barnes (LM, RM, CAM), Gray (LM, RM, ST), Drinky (CM, DM), Fuchs (LWB, LB, LCB), Amartey (CB, RB, DM) Zieler (GK). 

 

- Attacking mid (Boudebouz) means neither Vardy or Slimani have to play the "Okazaki role".

- Wingers can come back and defend but also put in a good cross to Slim. Potentially Fuchs starts if Chilwell's crossing hasn't improved.

- Creativity in midfield from Boudebouz and Iborra.

- Ndidi to do most of the 'dirty work' in midfield but Iborra should be able to help out. These two can also get a few goals between them.

 

- Centre backs compliment each other well, Huth and Maguire do most of the heading. Maguire can dribble out from the back. Huth can provide experience in the middle where his lack of mobility can't be exploited. Gibson does most of the passing and will be comfortable on the left side as he's left footed. 

 

- We should be good at defending and attacking set-pieces with the height of Maguire, Huth, Iborra, Ndidi and Slim. 

- Plenty of leaders on the pitch in Schmeichel, Iborra, Gibson etc.

 

- Versatile bench; Nacho, Gray and Drinky are the attacking subs while Fuchs and Amartey are the defensive ones. Every position is covered several times over.

- Finally, Morgan, James, Lawrence, Simpson etc. can all provide competition for first team places.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Melbourne Fuchs said:

I think a 3-5-2 could work well for us with some of the players we are linked with. I was pretty bored so I wrote this up. I've assumed Mahrez and Mendy are leaving.

 

           Vardy          Slimani

                 Boudebouz

 Chilwell                  Albrighton

              Ndidi        Iborra

      Gibson    Huth    Maguire 

                    Kasper

 

Bench: Iheanacho (ST, SS), Barnes (LM, RM, CAM), Gray (LM, RM, ST), Drinky (CM, DM), Fuchs (LWB, LB, LCB), Amartey (CB, RB, DM) Zieler (GK). 

 

- Attacking mid (Boudebouz) means neither Vardy or Slimani have to play the "Okazaki role".

- Wingers can come back and defend but also put in a good cross to Slim. Potentially Fuchs starts if Chilwell's crossing hasn't improved.

- Creativity in midfield from Boudebouz and Iborra.

- Ndidi to do most of the 'dirty work' in midfield but Iborra should be able to help out. These two can also get a few goals between them.

 

- Centre backs compliment each other well, Huth and Maguire do most of the heading. Maguire can dribble out from the back. Huth can provide experience in the middle where his lack of mobility can't be exploited. Gibson does most of the passing and will be comfortable on the left side as he's left footed. 

 

- We should be good at defending and attacking set-pieces with the height of Maguire, Huth, Iborra, Ndidi and Slim. 

- Plenty of leaders on the pitch in Schmeichel, Iborra, Gibson etc.

 

- Versatile bench; Nacho, Gray and Drinky are the attacking subs while Fuchs and Amartey are the defensive ones. Every position is covered several times over.

- Finally, Morgan, James, Lawrence, Simpson etc. can all provide competition for first team places.

 

 

 

I like it, however I'm struggling with that three. A purist would argue that Maguire should be in the middle to bring the ball out. You could switch him and Huth safe in the knowledge that Marc will track back and stick to his defensive duties.

 

Either that or Simmo replaces Huth altogether. 

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13 minutes ago, KFS said:

I like it, however I'm struggling with that three. A purist would argue that Maguire should be in the middle to bring the ball out. You could switch him and Huth safe in the knowledge that Marc will track back and stick to his defensive duties.

 

Either that or Simmo replaces Huth altogether. 

 

That's a good point, and I feel like one of the biggest weaknesses of this formation is Simpson missing out considering how good he was for us last season. Perhaps Amartey could play on the right? He looked good as a CB at AFCON but I don't think Shakespeare rates him as one. He's nice and versatile to have on the bench too.

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2 minutes ago, kyleolly said:

Kasper

 

Magure

Huth

Gibson

 

Gray

Ndidi

Iborra

Albrighton

 

Hernandez

Vardy

Inehanacho 

 

 

 

Chilwell for Gray in the above - there's no way Gray as wing back in any form.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, kyleolly said:

Kasper

 

Magure

Huth

Gibson

 

Gray

Ndidi

Iborra

Albrighton

 

Hernandez

Vardy

Inehanacho 

 

Only thing I can see wrong is that it includes 3 to 4  players we definitely won't be getting signatures from...possibly 5 if Kasper decides to move on (devastated if he did)

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On 31/05/2017 at 18:06, sdkessler said:

I said he would be better on the right than on the left. The problem is that your argument contradicts itself. As you can see from the video you linked, 4 of his 5 best crosses come from his right foot, by cutting in. Ideally, an orthodox winger should be running the touchlines as Mahrez is cutting in on the other side. Why? Watch the first match of the season against Hull. Gray and Mahrez on the flanks. They both cut in a lot. This lead to a lack in width and as a result compressed Hull's defense, leaving no space for the strikers. An orthodox winger, generally should be placed on the wing corresponding to his strong foot. Gray was dropped after the match for this reason.

 

What you're possibly not awareness of is the idea of inverted wingers was a considered decision from the Leicester management to take advantage of defensive weakness to that kind of cross.

 

The traditional of wingers getting in round the back and delivering crosses has been held for years, but with that the defending of this situation has improved as well so it was probably found this attacking method had become less productive.

 

The possibility of a winger cutting back inside to deliver a cross has a number of key advantages;

1.) The winger is on his stronger foot against the defenders weaker foot

2.) It opens opportunities for an over lapping fullback 

3.) The cross window is wider - traditional wing play requires great accuracy to get it past the first man... this newer way of playing produces gaps to hit between the defensive front man / midfield and can also lead to an isolation point at the back post (one we've taken advantage of a lot).

4.) Cutting back and crossing gives the strikers/midfield a greater choice in movement options. 

5.) The flow of play is quicker / the winger is often in a more controlled position to make the cross (beating a defender to get around the outside generally takes longer in build up play and will often mean a wide player is trying to hit a ball at pace / off balance, making the skill that much harder.

 

The other thing to note about Albrighton and Mahrez with inverted wing play is they've both become excellent at it, Albrighton especially. The fact he can deliver a quality left foot cross means a full back is kept honest, yet he only needs a slither of a margin on the cut back to deliver a telling ball on his right.

 

The other thing to consider on our 4-4-2 and if we need to change it is the reasons why it was so successful. My theory is what we ended up doing was using teams tendency to use full backs as attacking weapons in a back 4 system by quickly playing balls into space vacated by these full backs for Vardy and Mahrez to run onto and terrorise the 2 remaining centrebacks.

 

Shinji and Kante also had key rolls in this, because their combined defensive work allowed Mahrez to remain further forward (what you want to do with your best creative players if possible) - but additionally, Shinji dropping into the hole in a potential receiving position kept the holding midfielder honest - if the midfielder dropped back and helped his centrebacks with the Vardy threat, there was Shinji to receive the ball short, turn and then suddenly Leicester are running at the opposition on the break.

 

However, the move by some teams to a back 3 does cause a problem for our tactics, because suddenly the space we played too is harder to come by / the opposition are better equipped to counteract what we looked to do.

 

Additionally the teams that don't play a back 3, would come up with defensive tweaks for their own systems to try and combat our attacking methods - one I centrainly noticed was teams were more disciplined in their attacks against us in terms of players going beyond the ball, meaning there was more cover to pick up our attempts to clear / break and often lead to periods where we were penned in.

 

Now that's a natural occurance of doing well, teams will sit up, take notice and find ways of combatting what you're doing - and so this is where our challenge for this season lies. We still need to play to the strengths of our squad and pace is an excellent quality to have in abundance, but he will need to find new ways to use it against the evolving tactical scenarios we now see.

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5 hours ago, kyleolly said:

Kasper

 

Magure

Huth

Gibson

 

Gray

Ndidi

Iborra

Albrighton

 

Hernandez

Vardy

Inehanacho 

 

 

The 3 forwards you suggest would probably end up taking each other's space away. When considering attacking options it's important to consider how they will compliment each other, how if a defence was to shut down one option that might open up opportunities for the others. 

 

 

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  • 2 months later...

Hi, I have let this topic die when Mahrez was made the public tweet and decided to wait out a little for transfers and results to be a little more conclusive. I think I would finally like to revive this as I think that my case is now much stronger than before with our transfers and performances. I finally felt like I should make this topic as I feel like Leicester is not playing near the level that we could and should be playing. A tactic or a formation is only as effective until other teams figure it out and I think it is obvious that they have cracked our 4-4-2.

 

What I think are solid arguments for 3-4-3 based on my observations : 

 

1. We kept Mahrez(surprisingly, tbh) and Gray. Like I said before, they work better in the half-space rather than the wings. They fit in very well in the 3-4-3 system as they can play narrower and Mahrez's frequent defensive issues (failed to track back) are less problematic. Gray, on the other hand, is getting better and better.

 

2. One very glaring problem we have is when the ball is passed to Mahrez, he is always isolated. He wants to search for Vardy but pretty much every defender knows that now and have closed the passing lanes to Vardy. The lack of overlapping runs from Simpson doesn't help as well. Then, he would lose the ball because he tries to dribble past 2-3 defenders. Honestly, I blame a lack of support. Playing Albrighton as the wing-back can provide overlapping runs while he can cut in deeper into spaces between the lines rather than hanging out at the wings, I would assume. If he plays wide, Albrighton can cut in instead and provide midfield superiority. I think with these options, we are far more unpredictable.

 

3. We defended too narrowly. This was very evident in the match against Arsenal in my opinion. Bellerin and Oxlade-Chamberlain were absolutely exploiting the vast space on the flanks that night and that directly led to a few Arsenal goals. 5 at the back would make the defense harder to stretch. As a matter of fact, that's exactly what Man City did early in the match against Liverpool (Man City won 5-0). They defended deep with their wing-backs marking Liverpool's overlapping fullbacks.

 

4. Opponents play deep defensive lines against us now. No one plays a high line against us anymore. When the center-backs drop deep to stop Vardy, they leave spaces between the opponent's defensive line and the midfield. This is where a creative no.10 like Gylfi Sigurdsson would be effective. However, we do not have one. Instead, we get a striker to drop deep to exploit this space. Slimani and Ulloa isn't made for this and neither is Iheanacho. Only Okazaki does this well enough. This is why Okazaki is pivotal to our 4-4-2. It's not just the link-up plays and the work rate but also the spaces he exploits are an important counter to defenders sitting deep. What about Mahrez and Gray? They certainly can exploit this space. Unfortunately, they are too far out in the wings to punish the center-backs for dropping too deep. 3-4-3 fixes this. They can now both exploit the spaces left by the retreating center-backs and I think this is really really important because teams defend deeper than usual against us and thus, more room for Mahrez and Gray in the half-spaces.

 

5. I think that Leicester have signed the optimal center-back for a back 3, Harry Maguire. His marauding runs fit the back 3 system far better than the standard 4-4-2 simply because whenever he dribbles forward, we only have 1 center-back defending and is very vulnerable to a counter-attack. I honestly worry everytime he tries to dribble out of the back due to this. We also have Aleksandar Dragovic but I haven't seen enough of him to make a comment. However, we should have enough center-backs for now.

 

6. Chillwell seems like an excellent wing-back, making marauding runs down the left and we have Fuchs as well to compete for that spot.

 

7. We are too rigid going forward. Whenever we go forward, we still seem to be going forward in a 4-4-2 rather than being more fluid and creating passing options, forming passing triangles or rhombuses. This corresponds to my second point. We have low ball retention simply because the entire midfield is usually in a horizontal line when we have the ball rather than making runs, forming passing options etc whereas the strikers are cut off from the midfield.

 

8. We are still incredibly weak against set-pieces, especially corners. It seems that Shakespeare tried to counter that by playing a squad of large players against Liverpool. I still think that another center-back can help defend those corners a little better.

 

9. We also concede way too many goals where the opposition strikers simply ran past our defenders with a through ball and scored in a 1v1. One of the main purpose of a back 3 is to cut these channels for through balls.

 

10. We generally attack from the flanks and rarely through the center simply because we don't have the option to do so without Kante's marauding midfield runs. We make many crosses but neither Okazaki nor Vardy are good in the air. That's exactly why we bought Slimani in the first place. However, like I said in point 4, Okazaki is pivotal to our current system and so is Vardy. Therefore, we can't capitalize on the crosses. I am aware that a front 3 without Slimani would still be the same but we now have the option to attack centrally and out wide while tall midfield players like Ndidi or Iborra have the option to make box-to-box runs and make themselves available for crosses.

 

11. Most importantly, I just think we would be playing the players the way they're meant to be playing. No more Mahrez wider and more defensive than he should be. No more Slimani or Iheanacho playing deeper than they should just to fit the formation like Iheanacho against Huddersfield the other day or wasting Musa on the flanks when he could be lethal if played more centrally(I think he has shown this multiple times).The formation should fit the players we have, not forcing the players to play in different ways to fit the formation if we don't have the ideal players. I feel like 3-4-3 does this. The playstyle can stay the same, but at least everyone can play to their strengths this time around while covering many of our weaknesses.

 

However, these are some of the issues I can think of :

 

1. We lost Drinkwater. I think I have said multiple times that Drinkwater works well in a Chelsea-esque 3-4-3 in Leicester and would be good for the Matic role. Well, I'll be damned. Conte thought exactly the same and replaced Matic with Drinkwater. With the loss of Drinkwater and the Adrien Silva problem, we may lack creativity and quality in midfield. However, I think that this may be an argument against 3-5-2 in favour for 3-4-3. Focus on our strengths instead of playing 3 in the middle when we don't even have enough players in the middle to fit the roles.

 

2. We have many strikers. Doesn't seem like theres many places for the number of strikers we have but I think we can still successfully use them in a front 3 or if, for example, we sub in Slimani/Okazaki for Mahrez, we can easily revert this into a 3-5-2 or maintain the 3-4-3.

 

3. We lack depth in the winger role. We don't have many players that can fulfill the Gray/Mahrez role which was the reason I was against the Kapustka loan but Musa might be a very interesting alternative. He can utilize his pace very effectively like what Salah is doing for Liverpool this season. However, the 3-5-2 is always an option if they are unavailable.

 

 

Constructive Criticism is Welcome

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1 hour ago, pmcla26 said:

I say stick to the 442

I say no.

 

Not three at the back but we need to get rid of this damned formation as soon as possible

 

- It forces us to play Shinji and bench Nacho and Slim.

- It makes us utterly predictable

- None of our midfielders is strong enough to play in a two.

- It put a huge defensive strain on the wingers

- We suck at it since Kanté's gone. Badly.

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1 hour ago, ZeGuy said:

I say no.

 

Not three at the back but we need to get rid of this damned formation as soon as possible

 

- It forces us to play Shinji and bench Nacho and Slim.

- It makes us utterly predictable

- None of our midfielders is strong enough to play in a two.

- It put a huge defensive strain on the wingers

- We suck at it since Kanté's gone. Badly.

You didn't read what I just said. I have literally addressed every single issue you just pointed out and provided viable solutions. 

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10 minutes ago, sdkessler said:

You didn't read what I just said. I have literally addressed every single issue you just pointed out and provided viable solutions. 

And you didn't read whom I quoted and which formation I was referring to.

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34 minutes ago, KingKoala said:

I want us to try 3 at the back or 4231 at some point but no signs of it yet so far this season..

I suspect CS thinks 442 suits us and afraid of us becoming poor mans Liverpool or Arsenal?

Can someone please explain to me how 4231 differs from 4411? Seems about the same to me as the wingers come forward mostly (well Albrighton a little more defensive perhaps). Surely very little difference. 

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