Arriba Los Zorros Posted 11 December 2018 Share Posted 11 December 2018 53 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said: Haha, but in fairness Lizhang may of course be making a very good point. Just as we believe that we know our team and it's various capabilities over the years, he is merely doing the same and he does make some sense. The fact is that some supporters, because they are fiercy loyal to Pearson for what he contributed to our journey and rightly so, they do tend to wear blue tinted glasses regarding his current managing abilities. In the season of our so called great escape, if you look at the season as a whole and not the last handful of games, he was a poor poor manager in many ways and there's more than a few people that put our great escape down to other factors and individuals that do not include Pearson. He went on to do a piss poor job elsewhere didn't he. The fact he didn't have Shakespeare and Walsh with him may have been a contributory factor but either way he was a failure. There are also a few out of mere football snobbery that may feel that Leuven should feel lucky to have an ex Leicester City/Premiership manager. Firstly, a proven successful Premiership manager he isn't and on his own there's little to point to him being any good. There have been elements of Lizhang's arguments that are reminiscent of Pearson's inept pigheadedness when he was here. If I was Lizhang, whilst I would feel that in the long run that King Power would be good for my club, I too would want rid of Pearson under the circumstances. Though grateful for his past contribution to our journey, I wouldn't want him anywhere near us now other than as a visitor. True, I'm not saying Lizhang is wrong, he makes some very valid points, and we all appreciate him signing up to another club's forum to update us on OHL. But he isn't half a miserable, argumentative sod! Love you @Lizhang 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volpeazzurro Posted 11 December 2018 Share Posted 11 December 2018 30 minutes ago, Arriba Los Zorros said: True, I'm not saying Lizhang is wrong, he makes some very valid points, and we all appreciate him signing up to another club's forum to update us on OHL. But he isn't half a miserable, argumentative sod! Love you @Lizhang Love you too and Lizhang. I would still like to get over to watch them one day. One thing that does puzzle me is the structure of their league and the small amount of teams in it with the constant repeat of fixtures of the bottom four. I think that would seriously depress me. Do Belgian people like this system or would they prefer more teams and less leagues. Though I would expect financial sponsorship it quite different there, if we adopted a similar system here, there would be many chairman who would refuse to invest much in new players due to the constant threat of relegation and loss of revenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Lizhang Posted 11 December 2018 Popular Post Share Posted 11 December 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, volpeazzurro said: Love you too and Lizhang. I would still like to get over to watch them one day. One thing that does puzzle me is the structure of their league and the small amount of teams in it with the constant repeat of fixtures of the bottom four. I think that would seriously depress me. Do Belgian people like this system or would they prefer more teams and less leagues. Though I would expect financial sponsorship it quite different there, if we adopted a similar system here, there would be many chairman who would refuse to invest much in new players due to the constant threat of relegation and loss of revenue. Ok, i talked about this bit a month or two ago. Belgium is a small country. Leuven, in fact is the 8th biggest city (or 10th if you split up Brussels), and we only have a population of +/- 100.000, there are only +/- 5 cities, over a 200k pop... (http://nl.wikisage.org/wiki/Lijst_van_Belgische_steden_naar_inwonertal). That means the rest of our competition is filled with teams from towns and even villages. This is also a source of frustration, because we are actually being kicked around by teams from towns with a population of 15.000 and so. Leuven has the biggest university of the country, and one of the oldest/biggest/best in Europe. There are a lot of tech companies (due to the presence of the university), a few really big companies (Inbev brewery, Avévé..), so we shouldn't be strapped for sponsors, like some of our rival teams that are still living in the dark ages. But anyway, because the unfair budget split among clubs (and this starts with the Champion's League imho) the rich clubs get richer, and the poor clubs get poorer. Because our top clubs (Anderlecht, Brugge...) don't want to look like a fool in Europe, they lobby, and they have gotten away with demanding the lion share of the TV budget. It is also because our big clubs wanted to play more "top games" among each other (in order to raise the level of their game with Europe in mind) that we are now stuck with stupid playoffs all over. That means that clubs from small towns, they might be able to survive one or two years based on a good generation of players, but at the end of the day, they will need to invest too much in order to survive. Because they simply can't keep up, they are digging a hole for themselves, and when they inevitably get relegated, they don't get any money anymore (or a fraction) and they are too far in debt and they go bankrupt. The past decade a lot of small teams went belly up because of this. As you can understand, there is no endless supply of teams in a small country to fill the void. On top of that, this is the perfect breeding ground for 1/ corruption and matchfixing, and 2/ hostile or foreign takeovers of small teams. You could basically buy a club for a few million, invest some more, and be playing top of the league for only a fraction of the cost of what that would need in England, Spain or Italy. Another reason for small teams going bankrupt, is that the terms in order to be let into the pro circuit, are rather tough. So you get teams that invest in the stadium, the lighting, heated field (how do you call it?) as prescribed, and then there is no more money left to invest in players. So, by the end of the year, they get relegated (because their team sucks) immediately, and they get to play in the amateur division again, but now they have debts, they have a big (yet empty) stadium, with heated field and top notch lighting, for... amateur level football. You also get clubs that just don't want to go up, because they understand it's not worth it. They actually give away their spot because they refuse to go up to the pro circuit. OHL is actually at the bottom of the pro circuit, of the teams that actually WANT to be there. There are only +/- 3 teams from the amateurs that filed a form requesting permission to join the pros (should they win their division). Anyway, not so long ago there were 18 teams in first and 18 teams in second division. There was no clear cut pro/amateur split. So you could have amateur teams in 2nd division, and pro teams in third. But because the gap between teams with money (or first division teams that just got relegated) and teams without money (3rd division amateur teams that just got promoted, playing with boys from the block) was too big, the second division was very unbalanced. If you look at the list in the link i posted in the beginning of this post, you will understand why. The cities and towns with a population that warant a pro football team, goes down hard and fast. Number 36 in the list (if we argue that we would have two leagues of 18 (18*2=36)) only has a population of 35.000 anymore. Most of the towns that size simply can't (or don't want to) sustain a pro football club in a healthy way. So the decision was made to cut the pro leagues down to a division of 16 and a division of 8 clubs. There are too many clubs for one big pro division, but not enough for 2. Some have uttered the option of making two 12 team divisions, but i don't think that would be a good idea either, because you still get an awkward season with only 20 matches, and then you would need to resort to all kinds of stupid play off systems again. In short, the teams and fans don't really like the 8 team league, but i don't know if there really is an alternative. And it's all down to geological issues, small towns, only a limited number of sponsors available, unfair split of the TV budget (which starts at CL level) etc. There also has to be something in between first division and amateur football, a buffer like the one we're in now. Because it would be very harsh for a team playing in first division that might get relegated after only one bad season, having to go directly to the amateurs (which is basically a wasteland). There has to be something in between, some sort of safety net. An example of a small club fitting the description i made above, is Eupen. They have a population of roughly 15k, they were always on the brink of getting relegated out of second division, but then they were bought (on the cheap) by a Qatary coorporation, who linked the club to a Qatary academy. They promoted (twice) and are now in first division. PS: what i forgot to mention: I think the best they could do, is to let two extra amateur teams into the pro divisions (there are 2 or 3 of them that want to go pro anyway), and use the following split: 18 teams in first division, 8 teams in second. But with one important change compared to the current second division (which is called 1B), and that is to have 3 teams (out of 8) get promoted instead of just one. That means 3 teams get relegated out of 18 in the first division (1A), which is basically the same as it is now, since you have to finish among the first 15 teams as well currently. You can return to a normal first division, with 34 matches, no need for playoffs etc. You can still keep the 8 teams in 2nd division (1B), facing off twice at home and twice away... but 3 out of 8 teams get promoted, and one out of 8 gets relegated. Meaning, half of the division will change year over year. So unlike now, you won't get stuck playing the same teams for 3 years in a row. I believe it would also reward offensive football. You would have roughly 40% of getting promoted, so unlike the current situation, getting relegated out of 1A doesn't have te be the end of the world, you could easily go up in one or two years again. This way, the current 2nd division will be more of a "waiting area", where you will get your turn sooner or later, instead of being a deathtrap, like it is now. Edited 12 December 2018 by Lizhang typos galore 2 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizhang Posted 11 December 2018 Share Posted 11 December 2018 2 minutes ago, pmcla26 said: @Lizhang I’m not saying this is the case but just wondering, do you think, because King Power can afford to do so, once they manage to get your club up they will invest heavily to compete due to the lack of funds of the rest of the clubs and the problem is they just can’t get the formula yet to get up there? But once they do it should be straight forward competing for the top or no? This is what we have all hoped to be the case. It has always been hoping to become the Belgian equivalent of Leicester versus fearing to become another Belgian feeder club. At this moment in time, it could still go either way. We've seen some nice things by King Power, but the fact that Pearson just keeps chucking along, keeps playing guys like Hirst that have no business being on the pitch, that has many still doubting what will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingsX Posted 11 December 2018 Share Posted 11 December 2018 @Lizhang, many of us now have an interest in a team we can’t see play, in an obscure division, with a structure too arcane to understand. You’ve done a real job providing facts and context. Thank you. Beyond the Pearson arguments (you and everybody else have their ax to grind) … I know the fear of long and loyal supporters like you, is becoming a mere feeder club. Like the US baseball minor leagues which exist to develop players, so winning is secondary. These are unbelievable owners and I truly don’t believe they would sacrifice the welfare of a small club (and its supporters) to enhance a bigger asset. However, they also show great loyalty and trust to valued senior employees. I think that’s what you are seeing now. There comes a time to play for the points and feck all else, and that time is clearly now. Forgive nostalgic optimism among the LCFC support (and not just the Ostrich-heads) who have seen Pearson pull bad situations out of the fire. And coincidentally leave a good structure behind the scenes. I sincerely hope that is where this goes. If it doesn’t, KP management will do what has to be done. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizhang Posted 11 December 2018 Share Posted 11 December 2018 (edited) 52 minutes ago, KingsX said: @Lizhang, many of us now have an interest in a team we can’t see play, in an obscure division, with a structure too arcane to understand. You’ve done a real job providing facts and context. Thank you. As far as i know, there is only one website left (there used to be more AFAIK) that sometimes* offers livestreams of our matches. I don't know the forums policy regarding links to such websites. I'm fairly certain these are illegal streams. There is a betting website that also offers livestreams (most of the matches) but as far as i know it's georestricted. That means you can only watch if you can make the website believe you are in Belgium. This website offers legal streams (in conjuction with the Belgian Pro League) but it's a betting website, you need to sign up with your ID card, and make a small paiment (betting credits) before you can stream matches. It's also possible you won't be able to watch with a foreign ID card. But i don't know about that. This website is called "unibet". It's legal, with official streams. The other website with the (likely) illegal streams...if it's ok, i can post it. If not i can reply to peoples PM's. Neither are 100% certain to stream every match. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. But if you're interested... Edited 11 December 2018 by Lizhang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post volpeazzurro Posted 11 December 2018 Popular Post Share Posted 11 December 2018 5 hours ago, Lizhang said: Ok, i talked about this bit a month or two ago. Belgium is a small country. Leuven, in fact is the 8th biggest city (or 10th if you split up Brussels), and we only have a population of +/- 100.000, there are only +/- 5 cities, over a 200k pop... (http://nl.wikisage.org/wiki/Lijst_van_Belgische_steden_naar_inwonertal). That means the rest of our competition is filled with teams from towns and even villages. This is also a source of frustration, because we are actually being kicked around by teams from towns with a population of 15.000 and so. Leuven has the biggest university of the country, and one of the oldest/biggest/best in Europe. There are a lot of tech companies (due to the presence of the university), a few really big companies (Inbev brewery, Avévé..), so we shouldn't be strapped for sponsors, like some of our rival teams that are still living in the dark ages. But anyway, because the unfair budget split among clubs (and this starts with the Champion's League imho) the rich clubs get richer, and the poor clubs get poorer. Because our top clubs (Anderlecht, Brugge...) don't want to look like a fool in Europe, they lobby, and they have gotten away with demanding the lion share of the TV budget. It is also because our big clubs wanted to play more "top games" among each other (in order to raise the level of their game with Europe in mind) that we are now stuck with stupid playoffs all over. That means that clubs from small towns, they might be able to survive one or two years based on a good generation of players, but at the end of the day, they will need to invest too much in order to survive. Because they simply can't keep up, they are digging a whole for themselves, and when they inevitably get relegated, they don't get any money anymore (or a fraction) and they are too far in debt and they go bankrupt. The past decade a lot of small teams went belly up because of this. As you can understand, there is no endless supply of teams in a small country to fill the void. On top of that, this is the perfect breeding ground for 1/ corruption and matchfixing, and 2/ hostile or foreign takeovers of small teams. You could basically buy a club for a few million, invest some more, and be playing top of the league for only a fraction of the cost of what that would need in England, Spain or Italy. Another reason for small teams to go bankrupt, is that the terms in order to be let into the pro circuit, are rather tough. So you get teams that invest in the stadium, the lighting, heated field (how do you call it?) as prescribed, and then there is no more money left to invest in players. So, by the end of the year, they get relegated (because their team sucks) immediately, and they get to play in the amateur division again, but now they have debts, they have a big (yet empty) stadium, with heated field and top notch lighting, for... amateur level football. You also get clubs that just don't want to go up, because they understand it's not worth it. They actually give away their spot because they refuse to go up to the pro circuit. OHL is actually at the bottom of the pro circuit, of the teams that actually WANT to be there. There are only +/- 3 teams from the amateurs that filed a form requesting permission to join the pros (should they win their division). Anyway, not so long ago there were 18 teams in first and 18 teams in second division. There was no clear cut pro/amateur split. So you could have amateur teams in 2nd division, and pro teams in third. But because the gap between teams with money (or first division teams that just got relegated) and teams without money (3rd division amateur teams that just got promoted, playing with boys from the block) was too big, the second division was very unbalanced. If you look at the list in the link i posted in the beginning of this post, you will understand why. The cities and towns with a population that warant a pro football team, goes down hard and fast. Number 36 in the list (if we argue that we would have two leagues of 18 (18*2=36)) only has a population of 35.000 anymore. Most of the towns that size simply can't (or want) to sustain a pro football club in a healthy way. So they cut the pro leagues down to a division of 16 and a division of 8 clubs. There are too many clubs for one big pro division, but not enough for 2. Some have uttered the option of making two 12 team divisions, but i don't think that would be a good idea either, because you still get an awkward season with only 20 matches, and then you would need to resort to all kinds of stupid play off systems again. In short, the teams and fans don't really like the 8 team league, but i don't know if there really is an alternative. And it's all down to geological issues, small towns, only a limited number of sponsors available, unfair split of the TV budget (which starts at CL level) etc. There also has to be something in between first division and amateur football, a buffer like the one we're in now. Because it would be very harsh for a team playing in first division that might get relegated after only one bad season, having to go directly to the amateurs (which is basically a wasteland). There has to be something in between, some sort of safety net. An example of a small club fitting the description i made above, is Eupen. They have a population of roughly 15k, they were always on the brink of getting relegated out of second division, but then they were bought (on the cheap) by a Qatary coorporation, who linked the club to a Qatary academy. They promoted (twice) and are now in first division. That's really appreciated and very comprehensive. It highlights two things for me. Firstly my ignorance and lack of knowledge regarding Belgium as a country. Secondly, because of all the excellent Belgian footballers we see either in the Premiership or elsewhere abroad, I'd just assumed that the club situation over there must be large, strong and healthy. The club situation as you describe it makes it even more incredible the amount of great Belgian players you have turned out over the years! I do believe that with a bit of patience that King Power will pull though for you, but fully understand your concerns as we were exactly the same when they came to us and the rest is history. It's not just the title win either and I think the scenes of the 50,000 Leicester people who turned out on a walk before a game in memory of Vichai bears testament to how much the family are well thought of. As for Pearson I understand your concerns and would most likely be thinking similar in the circumstances. In his era he did us proud but he did have a very able team around him. Sometimes players who are very good players in their own countries come to the Premiership and can't adapt to the particular style of play here. There may be elements of that with some UK managers trying to manage abroad, in particular Pearson in Belgium and it has to be admitted that his efforts as a manager after us, without his team behind him was a bit of a failure. We nevertheless all wish Leuven all the best as we do feel a connection. Have a good Christmas! 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizhang Posted 11 December 2018 Share Posted 11 December 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, volpeazzurro said: That's really appreciated and very comprehensive. It highlights two things for me. Firstly my ignorance and lack of knowledge regarding Belgium as a country. Secondly, because of all the excellent Belgian footballers we see either in the Premiership or elsewhere abroad, I'd just assumed that the club situation over there must be large, strong and healthy. The club situation as you describe it makes it even more incredible the amount of great Belgian players you have turned out over the years! I do believe that with a bit of patience that King Power will pull though for you, but fully understand your concerns as we were exactly the same when they came to us and the rest is history. It's not just the title win either and I think the scenes of the 50,000 Leicester people who turned out on a walk before a game in memory of Vichai bears testament to how much the family are well thought of. As for Pearson I understand your concerns and would most likely be thinking similar in the circumstances. In his era he did us proud but he did have a very able team around him. Sometimes players who are very good players in their own countries come to the Premiership and can't adapt to the particular style of play here. There may be elements of that with some UK managers trying to manage abroad, in particular Pearson in Belgium and it has to be admitted that his efforts as a manager after us, without his team behind him was a bit of a failure. We nevertheless all wish Leuven all the best as we do feel a connection. Have a good Christmas! Late 1990s Belgian football wasn't worth shit. So efforts were made to increase the quality of our youth divisions and football education. There were a few of really good youth academies, Anderlecht, Beerschot, Genk... some of the bigger teams back then. Beerschot alone was responsible for Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Dembélé, Naingolan, Vermaelen... They all came from the same generation from the same club. Genk was famous for De Bruyne, Courtois (though i'm not sure they started out there)... But Dries Mertens, Denis Odoi and Dennis Praet (Sampdoria) all came out of Leuven, though Odoi was the only one to stick around. But still, we're talking about maybe 10 clubs with a decent youth system in place nationwide. OHL was, and still is, one of the twelve best youth acadamies in the country. Merry Christmas to you too. PS: i added something to my long post regarding our leagues/divisions. Edited 12 December 2018 by Lizhang 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinkenzo Posted 14 December 2018 Author Share Posted 14 December 2018 Losing at home to the mighty Mechelen after 4mins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizhang Posted 14 December 2018 Share Posted 14 December 2018 Early red card in the 44th minute. Hirst with the tap-in rebound for 1-1. But he also gave away the ball for 1-2 1-3 loss at home... OH Well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingsX Posted 14 December 2018 Share Posted 14 December 2018 Thanks to a tip from @Lizhang, I saw the second half. OHL were already a man down, so not the best sample to judge. The good: they kept attacking. I wish Iheanacho would make half the runs OHL’s young striker #25 did. The bad: what a horrid, raggedy defense. Slow and late on every run, every ball played. The ugly: #4 got in behind the line on a set piece, set himself and … headed it back out like a champ. Good CB instincts there bud, but that was Mechelen’s goal, not your own. I do want to watch them again, 11 v 11. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonanza Posted 14 December 2018 Share Posted 14 December 2018 (edited) Edited 14 December 2018 by Bonanza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylofox Posted 14 December 2018 Share Posted 14 December 2018 On 11/12/2018 at 14:38, Lizhang said: PS: what i forgot to mention: I think the best they could do, is to let two extra amateur teams into the pro divisions (there are 2 or 3 of them that want to go pro anyway), and use the following split: 18 teams in first division, 8 teams in second. But with one important change compared to the current second division (which is called 1B), and that is to have 3 teams (out of 8) get promoted instead of just one. That means 3 teams get relegated out of 18 in the first division (1A), which is basically the same as it is now, since you have to finish among the first 15 teams as well currently. You can return to a normal first division, with 34 matches, no need for playoffs etc. You can still keep the 8 teams in 2nd division (1B), facing off twice at home and twice away... but 3 out of 8 teams get promoted, and one out of 8 gets relegated. Meaning, half of the division will change year over year. So unlike now, you won't get stuck playing the same teams for 3 years in a row. I believe it would also reward offensive football. You would have roughly 40% of getting promoted, so unlike the current situation, getting relegated out of 1A doesn't have te be the end of the world, you could easily go up in one or two years again. This way, the current 2nd division will be more of a "waiting area", where you will get your turn sooner or later, instead of being a deathtrap, like it is now. Ffs this Ps is longer than my 11k posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizhang Posted 15 December 2018 Share Posted 15 December 2018 2 hours ago, KingsX said: Thanks to a tip from @Lizhang, I saw the second half. OHL were already a man down, so not the best sample to judge. The good: they kept attacking. I wish Iheanacho would make half the runs OHL’s young striker #25 did. The bad: what a horrid, raggedy defense. Slow and late on every run, every ball played. The ugly: #4 got in behind the line on a set piece, set himself and … headed it back out like a champ. Good CB instincts there bud, but that was Mechelen’s goal, not your own. I do want to watch them again, 11 v 11. To be fair... that #25, he's another OHL youth product... and he's a... defensive midfielder (same as Libert that he replaced, #24) Pearson has played him as a left wing fullback, a right wing fullback, offensive midfielder... but i can't remember him playing Mertens (#25) ever as defensive midfielder But the boy has potential. 37 minutes ago, sylofox said: Ffs this Ps is longer than my 11k posts Sorry man, it's not easy explaining the way our league works, and providing context as to how it came about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylofox Posted 15 December 2018 Share Posted 15 December 2018 6 minutes ago, Lizhang said: To be fair... that #25, he's another OHL youth product... and he's a... defensive midfielder (same as Libert that he replaced, #24) Pearson has played him as a left wing fullback, a right wing fullback, offensive midfielder... but i can't remember him playing Mertens (#25) ever as defensive midfielder But the boy has potential. Sorry man, it's not easy explaining the way our league works, and providing context as to how it came about. It's no problem. Just my sense of humour. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizhang Posted 15 December 2018 Share Posted 15 December 2018 We have dropped a spot. Now in 7th position, with the only team left behind us, playing later tonight, at home. If they win, we're tied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie the Fox Posted 15 December 2018 Share Posted 15 December 2018 2 hours ago, Lizhang said: We have dropped a spot. Now in 7th position, with the only team left behind us, playing later tonight, at home. If they win, we're tied. We know the feeling we dropped several places today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 15 December 2018 Share Posted 15 December 2018 3 hours ago, Lizhang said: We have dropped a spot. Now in 7th position, with the only team left behind us, playing later tonight, at home. If they win, we're tied. manager swap needed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizhang Posted 15 December 2018 Share Posted 15 December 2018 1 hour ago, Suzie the Fox said: We know the feeling we dropped several places today Yes, but there were only 2 places left for us to drop 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonanza Posted 21 December 2018 Share Posted 21 December 2018 0-0 against Westerlo. Very happy 2018 is over and looking forward to a (hopefully) better 2019... Merry Christmas and a happy New Year to you all!!! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvisfmcfly Posted 22 December 2018 Share Posted 22 December 2018 I never used to like Pearsons Interviews but now we have Puel so that was great I enjoyed that,Pearson in, for Leuven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 22 December 2018 Share Posted 22 December 2018 “ things can only get better..” ”Not necceserily” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhermon Posted 22 December 2018 Share Posted 22 December 2018 Got a funny feeling 1 or 2 lads might of got a bit of a spray at full time looking at him then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinowe Soorie Posted 22 December 2018 Share Posted 22 December 2018 Andy King incoming!?!?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxFossil Posted 22 December 2018 Share Posted 22 December 2018 Sheffield Wednesday looking for a manager, Nige still lives near I think. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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