Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Fox Ulike]

5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Don't get your knickers in a twist because somebody corrects you. The only paper I buy is the Mail on Sunday and they came out for remain, they still are anti brexit which can be annoying sometimes but it doesn't influence me in the slightest.

I didn't say that. You didn't correct me, you changed what I said.

 

I didn't mention the Mail on Sunday. I said the Daily Mail.

 

I didn't say that you were influenced by a newspaper that I didn't mention.

 

You got my twisted knickers right though.

 

Actually, this is rather fun. Pointless, grinding, fun.

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Fox Ulike said:

Actually, this is rather fun. Pointless, grinding, fun.

 That's what the forum is all about.

[Fox Ulike]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

 That's what the forum is all about.

What? Being deliberately obtuse?

 

Yeah OK. I might give it a go.

[Webbo]

Maybe I am a bit chippy on here sometimes, I don't go out of my way to be offensive to people, unless they've been deliberately offensive to me. I still believe there are worse on here than me, that don't received the same level of disapproval that I do because of which side of the fence they're on.

 

Arrogance,self righteousness ,snobbery and hypocrisy will always bug me but I shall henceforth make an effort to rise above it and moderate my tone.

[Facecloth]

Just now, Webbo said:

Maybe I am a bit chippy on here sometimes, I don't go out of my way to be offensive to people, unless they've been deliberately offensive to me. I still believe there are worse on here than me, that don't received the same level of disapproval that I do because of which side of the fence they're on. Arrogance,self righteousness ,snobbery and hypocrisy will always bug me but I shall henceforth make an effort to rise above it and moderate my tone.

You don't read people posts properly, constantly misrepresent what they say, and make arguments that have nothing to do with the discussion just to steer the debate on to ground you have more chance of being the victor on. You're not necessarily offensive, just a pain in the arse to discuss anything with in this thread, and a major reason why I rarely post in here any more. It's nothing to do with the side of the fence people are on a totally the way they conduct themselves. I think it's proven by the shear number of people who you've had run ins with over it, be it myself, Carl, Alf, Toddy, Fox Ulike, Buce, and I could go on. I hope as you say you can moderate it a little bit, and actually engage in decent discussion, as you clearly have an interest in politics.

[Webbo]

Just rise above it.

[Facecloth]

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Just rise above it.

I don't want to have to "Just rise above it" though. I want to engage in reasoned, proper debate, not have my comments twisted and distorted by someone at every opportunity. That someone being someone I can't put on ignore because they are a mod, and I don't particularly want to because in every other thread they seem a perfectly reasonable and nice person.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Facecloth said:

I don't want to have to "Just rise above it" though. I want to engage in reasoned, proper debate, not have my comments twisted and distorted by someone at every opportunity. That someone being someone I can't put on ignore because they are a mod, and I don't particularly want to because in every other thread they seem a perfectly reasonable and nice person.

No offence facecloth, you told me last friday I only post rubbish in here and I’m adding nothing to the debate, which I took on board and attempted not to rise to the bait set by others. Now it’s webbo you’re telling how not too post, fair enough I don’t think it’s completely unfair analysis but how about you take a look over the other side once in a while for criticism too? Fox Ulike, Toddy (although not for a while) moosebreath (aka rogstanley) continually twist the arguments and press buttons and troll to which the complainers of us, will usually rep. If you want fair debate it’s time you started levelling fair criticism.

[Wymsey]

In general he's fine, for sure, but just quite glad I'm not the only one that feels Facecloth, at times, posts in a way to annoy others and get them to retaliate.

Not that I have anyone on ignore, as feel ignoring anyone would tempt me to miss some of what they've said (which may contain non-troll views I could agree with).

Edited 23 February 2018 by Wymeswold fox

[Webbo]

A month or 2 ago just after that nutter was sentenced for running over those people outside a mosque rogstanley said that the right wingers on here approved of what he'd done and were partly responsible for it. Possibly the most vile thing anyone on here has ever said. If moosebreath had said it I would have deleted it immediately, but because I knew that some on here would accuse me of abusing my position I let it stand. None of our resident Mary Whitehouses on here who are permanently outraged with me uttered a word of protest, some actually repped it. So you'll have to forgive me if I don't take your selective outrage too seriously.

 

I said I'll try and tone it down a bit, that doesn't mean I'm going to be lectured.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

I have had loads of unfounded abuse from the far left momentum hate mob on here. Just because they disagree with my views.

 

The far left are often self righteous and disingenuous which is ironic given they are supposedly caring individuals who believe in fairer honest politics. I will never attack an individual for their views, I may disagree but everyone is entitled to have their views and interpret the world in whatever way they see fit. Unfortunately some of the far left members are not willing to accept that others may have different views on things and quite honestly it doesn't really matter what the basis for their views are.

 

Anyone can pull out articles and graphs to support an argument or find an expert, It doesn't make one view more superior than another.

[Facecloth]

5 minutes ago, Strokes said:

No offence facecloth, you told me last friday I only post rubbish in here and I’m adding nothing to the debate, which I took on board and attempted not to rise to the bait set by others. Now it’s webbo you’re telling how not too post, fair enough I don’t think it’s completely unfair analysis but how about you take a look over the other side once in a while for criticism too? Fox Ulike, Toddy (although not for a while) moosebreath (aka rogstanley) continually twist the arguments and press buttons and troll to which the complainers of us, will usually rep. If you want fair debate it’s time you started levelling fair criticism.

I'm not telling anyone how to post, I'm just saying it how it is, and pointing out why certain posters are being perceived in certain ways. We all have our moments, Webbo just pointed one out and it isn't great what Rog did. My point is I think a lot of people find Webbo a pain to discuss things in here with, not just on one occasion but all the time. We all over step the mark, we all twist things at times, but we don't all do it all the time, and that's my point. I just want, in the most part a proper debate, where I'll accept the occasion slip up. People will argue their corner, and that's what I see most people doing, be it you, Buce, Toddy. Moose, MattP etc I don't see them twist what people say and misrepresenting their comments, which I hope you can see is constantly happening with Webbo.

 

Also I'd say the fact Webbo hasn't bothered to respond to Alf's excellent post from yesterday, where he pretty much says what I said but much more eloquently, and pulls apart his behavior towards fox ulike and donut speaks volumes, as he clearly has to answer to it. And it's the kind of posting Alf rips into in that I'm talking about happening, not just once or twice but all the time, and it ruins what could be excellent debate.

 

And I wasn't telling you how to post, just pointing out the hypocrisy of complaining about someone not answering a question when you are the master of avoiding them.

[Facecloth]

16 minutes ago, Wymeswold fox said:

In general he's fine, for sure, but just quite glad I'm not the only one that feels Facecloth, at times, posts in a way to annoy others and get them to retaliate.

Not that I have anyone on ignore, as feel ignoring anyone would tempt me to miss some of what they've said (which may contain non-troll views I could agree with).

Sorry you feel that way Wymesy. I don't do that at all, I just don't put with with shit from others. If you're nice to me, I'll be nice back. If I feel you're taking the piss, being horrible, lying, misrepresenting, or talking bullshit, I'll tell you, be it here or in real life.

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

I'm not telling anyone how to post, I'm just saying it how it is, and pointing out why certain posters are being perceived in certain ways. We all have our moments, Webbo just pointed one out and it isn't great what Rog did. My point is I think a lot of people find Webbo a pain to discuss things in here with, not just on one occasion but all the time. We all over step the mark, we all twist things at times, but we don't all do it all the time, and that's my point. I just want, in the most part a proper debate, where I'll accept the occasion slip up. People will argue their corner, and that's what I see most people doing, be it you, Buce, Toddy. Moose, MattP etc I don't see them twist what people say and misrepresenting their comments, which I hope you can see is constantly happening with Webbo.

 

Also I'd say the fact Webbo hasn't bothered to respond to Alf's excellent post from yesterday, where he pretty much says what I said but much more eloquently, and pulls apart his behavior towards fox ulike and donut speaks volumes, as he clearly has to answer to it. And it's the kind of posting Alf rips into in that I'm talking about happening, not just once or twice but all the time, and it ruins what could be excellent debate.

 

And I wasn't telling you how to post, just pointing out the hypocrisy of complaining about someone not answering a question when you are the master of avoiding them.

Which post was that? The one I gave an in depth reply to or the one where he said he was going to a PTA meeting and couldn't argue anymore?

[Guest Foxin_mad]

4 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

I'm not telling anyone how to post, I'm just saying it how it is, and pointing out why certain posters are being perceived in certain ways. We all have our moments, Webbo just pointed one out and it isn't great what Rog did. My point is I think a lot of people find Webbo a pain to discuss things in here with, not just on one occasion but all the time. We all over step the mark, we all twist things at times, but we don't all do it all the time, and that's my point. I just want, in the most part a proper debate, where I'll accept the occasion slip up. People will argue their corner, and that's what I see most people doing, be it you, Buce, Toddy. Moose, MattP etc I don't see them twist what people say and misrepresenting their comments, which I hope you can see is constantly happening with Webbo.

 

Also I'd say the fact Webbo hasn't bothered to respond to Alf's excellent post from yesterday, where he pretty much says what I said but much more eloquently, and pulls apart his behavior towards fox ulike and donut speaks volumes, as he clearly has to answer to it. And it's the kind of posting Alf rips into in that I'm talking about happening, not just once or twice but all the time, and it ruins what could be excellent debate.

 

And I wasn't telling you how to post, just pointing out the hypocrisy of complaining about someone not answering a question when you are the master of avoiding them.

Come one. Most Left wing posters and misrepresenting comments all the time. Telling us because of our views we want people to die in hospital beds, in burning buildings, on the streets etc. etc. Its an absolute disgrace.

 

Just because we disagree that debt is bad, governments spending money that they don't have is bad, and that imaginary money that we don't have will stimulate the economy doesn't mean we are evil and want all the poor to die which is they way that most of the far left hate mob have us represented as rich toff foxhunting selfish evil tory shit scumbag *****. We all want to have the best services we can we just disagree that what Corbyn and McDonnell offer is a sensible method of getting there.

 

With regards Brexit, and I will state yet again I voted remain before I get painted as a rabid far right evil tory scum dog. We do not ACTUALLY have a fecking clue what is going to happen, its all guess work, we don't know whether we have a deal, we don't know if we are in or out of the single market, we don't know if we will stay in we don't know if Europe will collapse? No one knows. Everyone is talking ifs buts and maybes not one person is correct or wrong, all discussion points are valid and a possibility.

[Facecloth]

7 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Which post was that? The one I gave an in depth reply to or the one where he said he was going to a PTA meeting and couldn't argue anymore?

This one.

 

 

There's no reply to it. Maybe you wrote it but didn't post it. You reply to leicsmac bit not Alf.

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Facecloth said:

This one.

 

 

There's no reply to it. Maybe you wrote it but didn't post it. You reply to leicsmac bit not Alf.

The post he ended with;

Quote

Enough already! I've got a parents' evening to go to, so am out of here for several hours.

I'd said my bit he'd said his there was no point repeating ourselves. If I'd kept banging on and on saying the same thing you'd probably complain about that as well.

[David Guiza]

47 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

I have had loads of unfounded abuse from the far left momentum hate mob on here. Just because they disagree with my views.

 

The far left are often self righteous and disingenuous which is ironic given they are supposedly caring individuals who believe in fairer honest politics. I will never attack an individual for their views, I may disagree but everyone is entitled to have their views and interpret the world in whatever way they see fit. Unfortunately some of the far left members are not willing to accept that others may have different views on things and quite honestly it doesn't really matter what the basis for their views are.

 

Anyone can pull out articles and graphs to support an argument or find an expert, It doesn't make one view more superior than another.

Which posters on here are 'far left'? I see the term 'far' thrown about quite often on here and all over social media. This is not a personal dig, but in some eyes now if you are a remainer you are hard left and if you're pro-Brexit you're far right. In fairness it happens on both sides, but I would suggest that nobody on here is either far right or left. There are some fairly extreme views from time to time but it's hardly gulags and genocide.

 

Also, I did have to have a little chuckle at your suggestion that you are victimised and whilst grouping a whole bunch of people as self righteous and disingenuous in a post about irony.  

Edited 23 February 2018 by David Guiza

[Strokes]

16 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

I'm not telling anyone how to post, I'm just saying it how it is, and pointing out why certain posters are being perceived in certain ways. We all have our moments, Webbo just pointed one out and it isn't great what Rog did. My point is I think a lot of people find Webbo a pain to discuss things in here with, not just on one occasion but all the time. We all over step the mark, we all twist things at times, but we don't all do it all the time, and that's my point. I just want, in the most part a proper debate, where I'll accept the occasion slip up. People will argue their corner, and that's what I see most people doing, be it you, Buce, Toddy. Moose, MattP etc I don't see them twist what people say and misrepresenting their comments, which I hope you can see is constantly happening with Webbo.

 

Also I'd say the fact Webbo hasn't bothered to respond to Alf's excellent post from yesterday, where he pretty much says what I said but much more eloquently, and pulls apart his behavior towards fox ulike and donut speaks volumes, as he clearly has to answer to it. And it's the kind of posting Alf rips into in that I'm talking about happening, not just once or twice but all the time, and it ruins what could be excellent debate.

 

And I wasn't telling you how to post, just pointing out the hypocrisy of complaining about someone not answering a question when you are the master of avoiding them.

You aren’t saying it how it is, you are saying how it is from your perspective and disregarding any mitigating circumstances. Yet you are quite aware of mitigating circumstances or accepting of misrepresentation so long as it fits your argument it seems.

[ealingfox]

7 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Come one. Most Left wing posters and misrepresenting comments all the time. Telling us because of our views we want people to die in hospital beds, in burning buildings, on the streets etc. etc. Its an absolute disgrace.

 

Just because we disagree that debt is bad, governments spending money that they don't have is bad, and that imaginary money that we don't have will stimulate the economy doesn't mean we are evil and want all the poor to die which is they way that most of the far left hate mob have us represented as rich toff foxhunting selfish evil tory shit scumbag *****. We all want to have the best services we can we just disagree that what Corbyn and McDonnell offer is a sensible method of getting there.

 

With regards Brexit, and I will state yet again I voted remain before I get painted as a rabid far right evil tory scum dog. We do not ACTUALLY have a fecking clue what is going to happen, its all guess work, we don't know whether we have a deal, we don't know if we are in or out of the single market, we don't know if we will stay in we don't know if Europe will collapse? No one knows. Everyone is talking ifs buts and maybes not one person is correct or wrong, all discussion points are valid and a possibility.

 

Yes or no question for you foxin.

 

In the above post decrying people for what you perceive as routine misrepresentation of comments, do you see anything ironic?

[Guest Foxin_mad]

3 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Which posters on here are 'far left'? I see the term 'far' thrown about quite often on here and all over social media. This is not a personal dig, but in some eyes now if you are a remainer you are hard left and if you're pro-Brexit you're far right and. In fairness it happens on both sides, but I would suggest that nobody on here is either far right or left. There are some fairly extreme views from time to time but it's hardly gulags and genocide.

 

Also, I did have to have a little chuckle at your suggestion that you are victimised and whilst grouping a whole bunch of people as self righteous and disingenuous in a post about irony.  

Anyone who thinks that a far left Labour government are he solution to our problems and they are far left at present. Time will most probably prove me right on this at some point as I fear due to the seismic shift that Labour probably will end up screwing the country over at some point. But we will just have to ait and see on that as there are many who think Corbyn and co are the countries saviours.

 

Again I am pro remain but also classed as a rabid right winger on here by many. People class the Tories as right wing......they are not.

 

Certain people are self righteous and disingenuous, I stand by that. Believe me I have been called far worse. If that the way they are then so be it. I really could give a fvck. I actually find it amusing. I respect people who can mutually have a discussion about stuff and accept each others opinions even if there maybe differences. Unfortunately too many people take it too seriously.

 

I know I am not a bad person because I THINK we should not spend money we don't have (Doesn't mean I am right or wrong, that is MY view). One member (I wont dig up as its not necessary and I believe in bygones be bygones) for example on the other hand thinks I am a retarded mentally ill spastic or something along those lines.......not really necessary is it?!!

[Bobby Hundreds]

Edited 23 February 2018 by Bobby Hundreds

[Guest Foxin_mad]

10 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

 

Yes or no question for you foxin.

 

In the above post decrying people for what you perceive as routine misrepresentation of comments, do you see anything ironic?

No because this is stuff that has been said on here numerous times. You are obviously not seeing it.

 

I have seen a lot of pretty disgusting comments from the supposed so called caring left.

 

Personally I could give a fly fvck, but it seems certain people can give it out but cant take it back.

 

I have seen accusations of shouting on here, I don't think I have ever seen anything that can be perceived as shouting!

 

[Webbo]

6 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Anyone who thinks that a far left Labour government are he solution to our problems and they are far left at present. Time will most probably prove me right on this at some point as I fear due to the seismic shift that Labour probably will end up screwing the country over at some point. But we will just have to ait and see on that as there are many who think Corbyn and co are the countries saviours.

 

Again I am pro remain but also classed as a rabid right winger on here by many. People class the Tories as right wing......they are not.

 

Certain people are self righteous and disingenuous, I stand by that. Believe me I have been called far worse. If that the way they are then so be it. I really could give a fvck. I actually find it amusing. I respect people who can mutually have a discussion about stuff and accept each others opinions even if there maybe differences. Unfortunately too many people take it too seriously.

 

I know I am not a bad person because I THINK we should not spend money we don't have (Doesn't mean I am right or wrong, that is MY view). One member (I wont dig up as its not necessary and I believe in bygones be bygones) for example on the other hand thinks I am a retarded mentally ill spastic or something along those lines.......not really necessary is it?!!

I remember that, you got dog's abuse and I really should have stopped it but I knew how it would be twisted if I did. I don't remember anyone standing up for you ..

[Facecloth]

22 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Come one. Most Left wing posters and misrepresenting comments all the time. Telling us because of our views we want people to die in hospital beds, in burning buildings, on the streets etc. etc. Its an absolute disgrace.

 

Just because we disagree that debt is bad, governments spending money that they don't have is bad, and that imaginary money that we don't have will stimulate the economy doesn't mean we are evil and want all the poor to die which is they way that most of the far left hate mob have us represented as rich toff foxhunting selfish evil tory shit scumbag *****. We all want to have the best services we can we just disagree that what Corbyn and McDonnell offer is a sensible method of getting there.

 

With regards Brexit, and I will state yet again I voted remain before I get painted as a rabid far right evil tory scum dog. We do not ACTUALLY have a fecking clue what is going to happen, its all guess work, we don't know whether we have a deal, we don't know if we are in or out of the single market, we don't know if we will stay in we don't know if Europe will collapse? No one knows. Everyone is talking ifs buts and maybes not one person is correct or wrong, all discussion points are valid and a possibility.

Misrepresenting views and misrepresenting comments are totally different things. If you misrepresent my views, tell me because I voted a certain way I must believe X, Y and Z, I can argue that, I can tell you why you're wrong about me. If you take everything I say and make out as though I said something else, how can I argue that. I say A you sat I'm saying Z, what can I do? I correct you, but you do it again, how can I counter that, how can I tell you you're wrong about what I said when you're just not listening, when you're just bending it to fit your agenda. I'm not saying mispresenting views is a good thing either, but you can counter it, you can prove people wrong, you can't when people are lying about what you actually say.