Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Innovindil]

This is gold. 

 

Why can't we all just admit we're a bunch of cvnts and jog on? 

[Wymsey]

2 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

This is gold. 

 

Why can't we all just admit we're a bunch of cvnts and jog on? 

Are you Moosebreath?

[Innovindil]

Just now, Wymeswold fox said:

Are you Moosebreath?

Nah, this is genuinely my first account here. Wasn't around during the moosebreath era. 

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, Wymeswold fox said:

Are you Moosebreath?

I clicked on 1 of Dodgy Bob's posts the other day and both Moosebreath and foxxed had also posted from the same IP address. Doesn't necessarily prove they are the same people but it's quite a co incidence. Moose never had a Leicester IP address Innovindil has always had 1.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

6 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Misrepresenting views and misrepresenting comments are totally different things. If you misrepresent my views, tell me because I voted a certain way I must believe X, Y and Z, I can argue that, I can tell you why you're wrong about me. If you take everything I say and make out as though I said something else, how can I argue that. I say A you sat I'm saying Z, what can I do? I correct you, but you do it again, how can I counter that, how can I tell you you're wrong about what I said when you're just not listening, when you're just bending it to fit your agenda. I'm not saying mispresenting views is a good thing either, but you can counter it, you can prove people wrong, you can't when people are lying about what you actually say.

Are all comments not based views of individuals, maybe I am not missing the point!

 

I think all sides are only going to do what suits their agenda though which is fine, human nature I suppose. Really who cares! We don't need to get so up tight about it. Just move on.

 

X believes this Y believes this. Are X or Y bad people that you couldn't share a pint with? Most of the time probably not!

 

We are all just trying to do the best we can! The majority of us are decent people who want the greater good. Yes there are different viewpoints on how we get there.

[Facecloth]

29 minutes ago, Webbo said:

The post he ended with;

I'd said my bit he'd said his there was no point repeating ourselves. If I'd kept banging on and on saying the same thing you'd probably complain about that as well.

Well no I wouldn't actually, because if someone said all that about me and I thought they were wrong, I'd want to tell them why.

[Webbo]

Just now, Facecloth said:

Well no I wouldn't actually, because if someone said all that about me and I thought they were wrong, I'd want to tell them why.

Actually I did want to tell him, but when he said he couldn't reply for hours I decided to let it drop.

[Facecloth]

Just now, Webbo said:

Actually I did want to tell him, but when he said he couldn't reply for hours I decided to let it drop.

I'm really interesting in how you think he's in anyway wrong tbh.

[Sharpe's Fox]

egg and beans

[Guest Foxin_mad]

14 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I remember that, you got dog's abuse and I really should have stopped it but I knew how it would be twisted if I did. I don't remember anyone standing up for you ..

I believe in people right to express their views so believe you took the correct path, I could have reported it but didn't. Its entirely up to them how they chose to handle themselves and to be honest it says more about them that me that they could come out with that stuff.

 

Sadly I have worked with a few hard left Labour activists in the public sector and to say that the ones I have experienced are not very nice people is an understatement.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

egg and beans

You need a sausage or two to divide them. Egg and and beans shouldn’t touch imo.

[Sharpe's Fox]

Just now, Strokes said:

You need a sausage or two to divide them. Egg and and beans shouldn’t touch imo.

I may want to mix them but i want it to be my decision

[Webbo]

4 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

I'm really interesting in how you think he's in anyway wrong tbh.

I really don't want to drag this up again but if it means that much to you, give me the specific bits you're on about I'll reply, just so you can't say I'm avoiding answering.Not that you haven't already made your mind up.

[Facecloth]

11 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I really don't want to drag this up again but if it means that much to you, give me the specific bits you're on about I'll reply, just so you can't say I'm avoiding answering.Not that you haven't already made your mind up.

Well I can't tell you what you think he's got wrong, so I'd like you to counter against anything you feel he's wrong about.

[Carl the Llama]

So... How about them pigeons, eh?

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Well I can't tell you what you think he's got wrong, so I'd like you to counter against anything you feel he's wrong about.

Sounds like you're avoiding answering.

 

Do you honestly think I argue for the sake of it? I secretly agree but just say I don't for fun? Whatever I say you'll still say I'm wrong so what's the point?

[Facecloth]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

Sounds like you're avoiding answering.

 

Do you honestly think I argue for the sake of it? I secretly agree but just say I don't for fun? Whatever I say you'll still say I'm wrong so what's the point?

No, you're avoiding answering  I can't tell you what you think is wrong, I can't tell you what you wanted to reply to Alf but decided not to. If you think he's wrong at any point I'm interested to know why. 

 

And if I'd already decided, why would I be asking you to reply to it? Now you misrepresenting my view by assuming what I think, which @Foxin_mad I can put him right on by telling him I don't think that, which is something I couldn't do if he'd was misrepresenting what I'd said, because he'd just keep coming back and telling me I'd said something I hadn't.

 

 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

I think the issue here maybe that people see certain things in a certain way. I have been guilty of misreading things I am sure.

 

That probably suits our preconceived beliefs, maybe we read what we want to read in a persons comments. To be honest a lot of it is about actions.

 

Its easy to misunderstand a view, its less easy in my eyes to misunderstand an action.

[RumbleFox]

1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said:

Anyone who thinks that a far left Labour government are he solution to our problems and they are far left at present. Time will most probably prove me right on this at some point as I fear due to the seismic shift that Labour probably will end up screwing the country over at some point. But we will just have to ait and see on that as there are many who think Corbyn and co are the countries saviours.

 

Again I am pro remain but also classed as a rabid right winger on here by many. People class the Tories as right wing......they are not.

 

Certain people are self righteous and disingenuous, I stand by that. Believe me I have been called far worse. If that the way they are then so be it. I really could give a fvck. I actually find it amusing. I respect people who can mutually have a discussion about stuff and accept each others opinions even if there maybe differences. Unfortunately too many people take it too seriously.

 

I know I am not a bad person because I THINK we should not spend money we don't have (Doesn't mean I am right or wrong, that is MY view). One member (I wont dig up as its not necessary and I believe in bygones be bygones) for example on the other hand thinks I am a retarded mentally ill spastic or something along those lines.......not really necessary is it?!!

I think probably in the same way that you would rightly get annoyed with someone branding you "far right" because you believe in x or y that someone else might feel slightly aggrieved by being labelled "far left" for say, wanting to raise taxes or give more money to those on benefits for example.  I do not think these terms are healthy and I always try to never label someone "a racist" for voting Brexit for example.  I am probably someone you would think is a mad lefty but I probably have more arguments with fellow "lefties" as I hate it when they say things like "all Trump voters are racist" "anyone voting Brexit is a moron", etc because firstly, it is simply not true and, secondly, if achieves nothing.  No one ever changes minds or viewpoints by being offensive.

 

With that in mind....... I do think your use of "far left" just ruins your own arguments slightly as it sounds like something Trump would spout to belittle somebody.  Many of your posts are well written and thought out but, and I can just speak to myself now, the far left stuff just switches me off because it is so generic, vague and often untrue. I think, deep down, most of us just want to get along, have a nice life and enjoy ourselves and most of us are pretty decent people face to face.  Breaking down groups and mobs is the key, seeing people as individuals is so important as mob mentality and "in and out groups" are literally some of the worst parts of human nature and that's why terms like "far right people" and "far left people" just do nothing for me.

 

Having said all that you are a far right, racist nutter spasmo.  X

Edited 23 February 2018 by RumbleFox

[Izzy]

50 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

This is gold. 

 

Why can't we all just admit we're a bunch of cvnts and jog on? 

Thing is most posters on here are good as gold on other threads, but when some come on here they turn into the worst version of themselves.

 

I swear this thread is just a place where people come to vent their spleen, let off some steam or just have a good old argument.

 

We'll probably all never change our allegiances so it just becomes a left v right, point scoring slanging match. 

 

Still, it's good entertainment to read sometimes... 

[lifted*fox]

this thread is such a ****ing pit of despair, I don't know why everyone continues to bang their heads against the same brick wall day in, day out. 

 

I gave up contributing to this thread - I've posted serious posts, I've posted wind-up posts, I've posted pigeons and I've posted heart-felt posts that explain clearly the way I have the political beliefs that I do. 

 

my only true criticism of Webbo is that he very rarely shows any of his human side and everything he posts is 'facts' this / 'figures' that - I've never, not once had a single understanding of how any of this political bullshit effects him in real terms. he gives absolutely zero clues as to why he has the political standing / beliefs that he does and he very rarely budges on his opinions even when they're clearly wrong / questionable / difficult to understand.

 

in my opinion it's that inability to talk about who he actually is (as a person) and why he holds the beliefs that he does that makes Webbo a very difficult person to warm to and that's what causes frustration, imo. 

 

there are people on here who hold similar beliefs and have openly admitted it's for purely selfish reasons (Innovindil) but at least it's honest and whilst I can't agree, I know who he is and where you stand with him. 

 

a bit more humility, sense of humour and willingness to back down on some things would go a long way, imo. 

 

[Webbo]

23 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Thanks for your measured response. I'm not taking anything personally, just expressing my views in a public forum. I was only "shouting" (a) to give you a taste of your own medicine; (b) because I know you're big enough and ugly enough to take it (saw your photo in the "What does everybody look like" thread ).

 

Donut's comment is hyperbolic and hypothetical (I assume you DIDN'T actually vote Brexit to lose employment rights?). He did not specifically call you a liar or a fool - and he did not claim to be polite. You approvingly posted an article blatantly misrepresenting Remainers, gratuitously asked Fox ulike if he was thick when it was you that was misunderstanding (so you were the one being "thick", if anyone), said "we all know what a bunch of liars [...] the Remainers are", then proceeded to claim that you were being polite.  

 

Fox ulike explained his point to you (though I found it perfectly clear from the outset), yet you are still misrepresenting him. He was not describing Phillips as a Nazi or denying that anyone had ever called Brexiteers Nazis, he was saying that Phillips' article was reminiscent of Nazi propaganda. I completely agree with his opinion.

 

As I've said, you seem to be a man with a closed mind and blinkers. Why not prove me wrong? Go back to that Phillips article and try this:

- Replace "Brexiters" with "Remainers" and vice-versa throughout and see whether you still consider it a fair assessment

- Just count the number of times she uses the passive. This is a clear and blatant sign of Nazi-style propaganda - making outrageous accusations but putting them in the passive as she cannot attribute them to anyone specific:

e.g. "[Brexit supporters] are deemed to be racists, xenophobes, nativists, jingoists, Nazis and, of course, stunted imbeciles"; "the western nation itself is deemed innately bad"; "upholding British or western identity leads to nationalism, fascism and war"; "Opponents must be demonised and silenced for the good of humanity"; "there are many issues ....where dissent is simply not tolerated"; "Trevor Phillips was denounced as a racist" etc. Who is doing all this "deeming", "demonising", "silencing" and "not tolerating"? The article implies that such views are widespread, whereas in truth very few people view Brexiteers as Nazis and imbeciles, Trevor Phillips as a racist, fascism and war as inevitable or believe that opponents must be silenced!

 

On the few occasions that Melanie Phillips specifies who is committing these terrible acts, they are attributed quite widely:

- "Among many Remainers, there's a deep belief [that Brexit supporters are Nazis, stunted imbeciles etc.]";

- "Claims by Brexit supporters that their deepest concern is to restore democratic control over British laws and policies are dismissed as absurd by Remainers because they don't value democratic sovereignty. Many despise it". 

- "For many scientists that is a forbidden idea. So instead of disputing the theory with evidence, they smear and intimidate proponents"

Some of these claims may be true of a few Remainers or a few scientists, but only a few - just as it would be wrong of me to claim that "Brexiteers or many Brexiteers are Nazis and stunted imbeciles who despise democracy and seek to smear and intimidate". That article is a disgracefully dishonest bit of misrepresentation and propaganda - that's down to Phillips, but you viewed it as "a fair assessment".

 

Re. "qualified majority" decisions being "imposed on us": Yes, if we fail to win support for our position at EU level (at the Council or Parliament, where we are represented) and lose a vote, the majority get their way. That's democracy. The same applies within the UK. If Labour MPs for Leicester want a different policy from those "imposed" by the majority Tory govt, then tough - unless they can win support for it. In essence, all you are saying is that you don't like the idea of powers being pooled internationally. You see the national (and maybe local) level as the only one at which joint decisions should be taken and democracy exercised. You are a nationalist, I get that. It's a valid argument to say that all democracy should stop at the national level - or to say that some of it should be pooled internationally. It's certainly not valid to pool democracy internationally and then not expect to be bound by majority decisions - and to view them as being "imposed" on you!

 

Enough already! I've got a parents' evening to go to, so am out of here for several hours.

Just for facecloth.

 

Quote

Donut's comment is hyperbolic and hypothetical (I assume you DIDN'T actually vote Brexit to lose employment rights?). He did not specifically call you a liar or a fool - and he did not claim to be polite. You approvingly posted an article blatantly misrepresenting Remainers, gratuitously asked Fox ulike if he was thick when it was you that was misunderstanding (so you were the one being "thick", if anyone), said "we all know what a bunch of liars [...] the Remainers are", then proceeded to claim that you were being polite.  

I said this to donut;

Quote

Whose said we're going to lose our employment rights apart from the remainers, and we all know what a bunch of liars they are. Our employment rights in this country are higher than some parts EU, we had holidays and holiday pay long before we joined the common market. You don't want to swallow all this hysterical propaganda.

When I said remainers I meant those campaigning for remain, the same people who claimed there'd be recession by now, there'd be another 500k unemployed, we all believed what was written on the bus and we were only bothered about blue passports. They are quite clearly lies. I didn't mean to imply all those that support remain, sorry for the misunderstanding. I got this in reply;

Quote

 

And this is why i cant be arsed with threads like this.

 

Make a point about whats in the papers you instantly meet a shouty person screaming why YOURE wrong and having no debate at all.

 

Quite how my post could be interpreted as shouty I don't know but it's hard to judge tone on the internet. He subsequently called me a twat. Personally I think I was more sinned against than sinner but people will have to make up their own minds.

Quote

 

Fox ulike explained his point to you (though I found it perfectly clear from the outset), yet you are still misrepresenting him. He was not describing Phillips as a Nazi or denying that anyone had ever called Brexiteers Nazis, he was saying that Phillips' article was reminiscent of Nazi propaganda. I completely agree with his opinion.

 

As I've said, you seem to be a man with a closed mind and blinkers. Why not prove me wrong? Go back to that Phillips article and try this:

- Replace "Brexiters" with "Remainers" and vice-versa throughout and see whether you still consider it a fair assessment

- Just count the number of times she uses the passive. This is a clear and blatant sign of Nazi-style propaganda - making outrageous accusations but putting them in the passive as she cannot attribute them to anyone specific:

e.g. "[Brexit supporters] are deemed to be racists, xenophobes, nativists, jingoists, Nazis and, of course, stunted imbeciles"; "the western nation itself is deemed innately bad"; "upholding British or western identity leads to nationalism, fascism and war"; "Opponents must be demonised and silenced for the good of humanity"; "there are many issues ....where dissent is simply not tolerated"; "Trevor Phillips was denounced as a racist" etc. Who is doing all this "deeming", "demonising", "silencing" and "not tolerating"? The article implies that such views are widespread, whereas in truth very few people view Brexiteers as Nazis and imbeciles, Trevor Phillips as a racist, fascism and war as inevitable or believe that opponents must be silenced!

 

It's nothing like Nazi propaganda. There are people in academia who are frightened to speak out against the groupthink because they think it will affect their career. If you don't think there are people out there who think brexiteers aren't Nazis and imbeciles you clearly haven't been reading this thread.

Saying replace Brexiteers with remainers is clearly nonsense, nobody in academia faces prejudice for being pro remain.

Of course she would say many remainers or many scientist. It's impossible to say 100% of any group believe the same thing.

 

Quote

Re. "qualified majority" decisions being "imposed on us": Yes, if we fail to win support for our position at EU level (at the Council or Parliament, where we are represented) and lose a vote, the majority get their way. That's democracy. The same applies within the UK. If Labour MPs for Leicester want a different policy from those "imposed" by the majority Tory govt, then tough - unless they can win support for it. In essence, all you are saying is that you don't like the idea of powers being pooled internationally. You see the national (and maybe local) level as the only one at which joint decisions should be taken and democracy exercised. You are a nationalist, I get that. It's a valid argument to say that all democracy should stop at the national level - or to say that some of it should be pooled internationally. It's certainly not valid to pool democracy internationally and then not expect to be bound by majority decisions - and to view them as being "imposed" on you!

I don't believe we should be denied what's best for our country because a majority of foreign countries who may not be facing the same problems as us vote against it.

 

 

There, there's 20 minutes of my life I won't get back and Facecloth can still tell me I'm wrong.

 

[Izzy]

2 hours ago, Facecloth said:

 I think it's proven by the shear number of people who you've had run ins with over it, be it myself, Carl, Alf, Toddy, Fox Ulike, Buce, and I could go on. I hope as you say you can moderate it a little bit, and actually engage in decent discussion, as you clearly have an interest in politics.

Add Rog & Sharpes and you've got FT's very own opposition front bench right there 

[Buce]

6 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Thing is most posters on here are good as gold on other threads, but when some come on here they turn into the worst version of themselves.

 

I swear this thread is just a place where people come to vent their spleen, let off some steam or just have a good old argument.

 

We'll probably all never change our allegiances so it just becomes a left v right, point scoring slanging match. 

 

Still, it's good entertainment to read sometimes... 

 

And you can fvck off as well... 

Edited 23 February 2018 by Buce

[Rogstanley]

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

A month or 2 ago just after that nutter was sentenced for running over those people outside a mosque rogstanley said that the right wingers on here approved of what he'd done and were partly responsible for it. 

You what!?!

 

I said nothing of the sort.