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DJ Barry Hammond

Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

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2 minutes ago, Donut said:

But only if they agreed though because peoples opinions on everything differ

We are all from Leicester or at least mostly and don’t agree, so I’m not sure what you are getting at. 

Anyway im off out now, so all of ya enjoy yourselves ok.

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1 minute ago, lifted*fox said:

 

you got gunned fam :cool:

 

but this is the new Webbo that loves some banter, nice.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

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Ok im gonna be shot down here by all the people who are more politically savvy but im gonna go for it....

 

One plus point of brexit is supposed to be democracy, taking back control and all that whatever that means to each person.

 

So what happens if the conservatives come to a brexit deal and people dont like it much. Or enough that labour would win the next election.

 

Is everyone fooked until the next election comes around while the brexit plans are put into place? Then would labour have to undo whatever has been put in place by conservatives?

 

Surely by definition there should be abother referendum because if you voted to leave EU but did not vote HOW and you did not vote WHO should carry out the plans.

 

If theres no 2nd referendum or whatever the conservatives put in place cant be undone when do you get YOUR choice that youre supposed to get?

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2 hours ago, Webbo said:

If we took your argument to it's conclusion then every house would make it's own laws. The UK has been an entity for more than 200 years, we all speak the same language, watch the same same news, read the same papers, live under the same conditions. We're the best people to decide what's best for us. Just the same as I don't think we should have a role in running Romania because we don't have the knowledge and experience to understand what's best for them.

 

I didn't say and neither did Melanie Phillips say they represented your views. She was talking about academics in academia.

I actually agree with most decisions being taken at the level of the nation-state and even at lower levels than that where possible, in order to be as specific for the people it is legislating for as possible. However, do you not think there are certain issues that transcend national borders, where supranational agreement would be useful, like climate change, counter-terrorism via security sharing, common rules for an economic area, etc? 

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17 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

My Dad has lived in both Burnley and London is his time and apparently they're almost identical places

 

I find that difficult to accept, mate.

 

In what way are they even similar?

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1 minute ago, theessexfox said:

I actually agree with most decisions being taken at the level of the nation-state and even at lower levels than that where possible, in order to be as specific for the people it is legislating for as possible. However, do you not think there are certain issues that transcend national borders, where supranational agreement would be useful, like climate change, counter-terrorism via security sharing, common rules for an economic area, etc? 

If we'd stuck to the original idea of a common market, a loose grouping of countries promoting trade and co operating where necessary I'd have been happy to stay in. I don't mind and still believe we will co operate after we've left. Occasionally we'll agree to things that are less than perfect for us, but'll it be our govt's decision, answerable to us. That's all I want.

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3 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I find that difficult to accept, mate.

 

In what way are they even similar?

They're not mate. I was just adding to the stupidity of that particular topic :D

 

Should have put a smiley face after it :rolleyes:

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9 minutes ago, Donut said:

Ok im gonna be shot down here by all the people who are more politically savvy but im gonna go for it....

 

One plus point of brexit is supposed to be democracy, taking back control and all that whatever that means to each person.

 

So what happens if the conservatives come to a brexit deal and people dont like it much. Or enough that labour would win the next election.

 

Is everyone fooked until the next election comes around while the brexit plans are put into place? Then would labour have to undo whatever has been put in place by conservatives?

 

Surely by definition there should be abother referendum because if you voted to leave EU but did not vote HOW and you did not vote WHO should carry out the plans.

 

If theres no 2nd referendum or whatever the conservatives put in place cant be undone when do you get YOUR choice that youre supposed to get?

What if Labour get in and fvck everything up, do we have to wait until the next election? Yes because that's the way it works.

 

We're leaving in March 2019 and then there's a transition period that takes upto sometime in 2021. The next election is in 2022 (or sooner) You won't have long to wait until you can make your opinion heard.

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Just now, Izzy Muzzett said:

They're not mate. I was just adding to the stupidity of that particular topic :D

 

Should have put a smiley face after it :rolleyes:

 

:doh: 

 

Sorry, bro, I thought you were being serious. lol

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1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

:doh: 

 

Sorry, bro, I thought you were being serious. lol

lol

 

Not sure I can take this thread serious anymore mate ;)

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1 minute ago, Webbo said:

What if Labour get in and fvck everything up, do we have to wait until the next election? Yes because that's the way it works.

 

We're leaving in March 2019 and then there's a transition period that takes upto sometime in 2021. The next election is in 2022 (or sooner) You won't have long to wait until you can make your opinion heard.

Yes but you cant make your opinion heard if all the stuff put in place by conservatives then cant be undone by labour.

 

Obviously in an election its not the ONLY thing each side is campaigning on, but if its supposed to be about choice where do you get YOUR choice? You can vote the party out but you cant get out of all the trade arrangements theyve made or border control policies projects theyve committed to long term etc

 

So surely you should decide whether to go forward with the plans when theyre finalised and you know how youll be affected financially say before the government does anything? 

 

Or else you arent getting any more choice

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2 hours ago, Foxin_mad said:

I do personally feel that Corbyn is far left, that's just my view doesn't make it right of course. Some of his policies to me are extremely concerning as is some of this rhetoric.

 

Anyone on the centre ground, not a problem. Labour with a decent centre left leader I could happily consider myself voting for. I just feel that the direction Labour are heading is not good. Again my personal view.

 

Perhaps it is a little unfair of me to brand all Labour voters 'far left' but I do feel that is where the party is at present. Labour under Corybn is the left wing equivalent of UKIP. Corbyn, McDonnell and the shadow cabinet have questionable and divisive visions in my view. The actions of Momentum and Seamus Milne are often quite abhorrent, some of the abuse the centre left MPs and Tories has received from this hate group is quote disgusting and I do not really know how any decent person can stand for that kind of abuse in modern Britain. A lot of their rhetoric surround stirring hate and anger towards those who 'have' by those perceived as 'not having'. Just the other night Corbyn praised a speech by the absolute cretin STORMZY which basically incites the poor to go and burn down rich peoples house so 'they know how it feels' that kind of thing sets a pretty bad standard in my eyes.

 

Every day of the week I have said there are many failings in this government, I would go as far as to say they are incompetent. The problems for me at present is there is no viable alternative mainly because Labour led by momentum are on a route to the left.

 

I am deffo a right wing nutter spazo nasty evil tory **** who eats foxes for breakfast though!

Great reply, thank you.  I disagree and agree with in in equal measure but nice to see actual reasoned points on here.  X

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1 minute ago, Donut said:

Yes but you cant make your opinion heard if all the stuff put in place by conservatives then cant be undone by labour.

 

Obviously in an election its not the ONLY thing each side is campaigning on, but if its supposed to be about choice where do you get YOUR choice? You can vote the party out but you cant get out of all the trade arrangements theyve made or border control policies projects theyve committed to long term etc

 

So surely you should decide whether to go forward with the plans when theyre finalised and you know how youll be affected financially say before the government does anything? 

 

Or else you arent getting any more choice

We had an election less than a year ago. If Labour had won they could have made the decisions. Sometimes we all have to endure govts we didn't vote for.

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it'd be wonderful democracy if we all had a say in the terms of leaving the EU - if indeed that is what we must do. 

 

but NO! no more votes - you've already made your choice. democracy is a one time thing and it's done mother****ers. you voted for change but who gives a **** what that entails, right? :rolleyes:

 

now you get to sit back and watch your own government make ****ed up rules without your input - in the same way you had to watch the EU allegedly do the same. 

 

don't think for one second your own government cares ANY more about you than the collective EU did - quite the opposite probably. 

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1 minute ago, Webbo said:

We had an election less than a year ago. If Labour had won they could have made the decisions. Sometimes we all have to endure govts we didn't vote for.

Im not arguing against parties i didnt vote for or that labour should have won and should be leading brexit im saying the brexit issue is a cross party issue with issues that would have to be addressed by whichever side won so unless the public are consulted about the exiting terms then there COULD be issues with leaving the EU that will screw everyone over forever no matter who they vote for so they havent got any choice.

 

Im talking hypothetical as youre a leaver so maybe just getting out regardless is the goal i dont know but if its about giving people power to decide things then no matter who they vote for they wont be able to maybe get out of some things making them worse off or negatively impacting them

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6 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

it'd be wonderful democracy if we all had a say in the terms of leaving the EU - if indeed that is what we must do. 

 

but NO! no more votes - you've already made your choice. democracy is a one time thing and it's done mother****ers. you voted for change but who gives a **** what that entails, right? :rolleyes:

 

now you get to sit back and watch your own government make ****ed up rules without your input - in the same way you had to watch the EU allegedly do the same. 

 

don't think for one second your own government cares ANY more about you than the collective EU did - quite the opposite probably. 

Essentially this is what im saying.

 

How am i GAINING any more choice/democratic power if i cant have a say in the brexit plans? I havent gained anything except the opportunity to say yes or no

Edited by Donut

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4 minutes ago, Donut said:

Essentially this is what im saying.

 

How am i GAINING any more choice/democratic power if i cant have a say in the brexit plans? I havent gained anything except the opportunity to say yes or no

 

exactly

 

excruciating to watch people suggest otherwise.

 

i love all this "take our country back" shit.

 

you ain't taking shit back m8, you're just putting it back into the hands of the greediest ***** going with **** all restraint from anyone else.

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2 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

 

exactly

 

excruciating to watch people suggest otherwise.

 

i love all this "take our country back" shit.

 

you ain't taking shit back m8, you're just putting it back into the hands of the greediest ***** going with **** all restraint from anyone else.

And then we can boot them out if we don't like it.

 

Brilliant, taking back control.

 

You are one of the best leave posters on here.

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Just now, Sharpe's Fox said:

@MattP knew you'd like that mate

Love it. It's how I imagine a Labour party hen night to be.

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1 minute ago, MattP said:

And then we can boot them out if we don't like it.

 

Brilliant, taking back control.

 

You are one of the best leave posters on here.

But theyve already agreed lots of principles you cant get out of? Theyve decided to put a hard border in ireland, theyve decided to come out of the customs union or form their own, decided on trade deals for x years or projects.

 

Can you get out of all these things? Can the next govermment undo all this?

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13 minutes ago, Donut said:

Essentially this is what im saying.

 

How am i GAINING any more choice/democratic power if i cant have a say in the brexit plans? I havent gained anything except the opportunity to say yes or no

But you didn't vote for the rules that we have under the EU now so you haven't got less choice than you had before

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