Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Carl the Llama]

Incidentally those officials that we elect act on our behalf for the presidential and commission selection processes. Sometimes you have to accept the outcome of democratic processes even if you disagree with the decision.

[Carl the Llama]

10 minutes ago, Webbo said:

They'll only be more costly if we decide to impose tariffs on them, nobody has suggested that we do that. If we buy our food at world prices we'll be better off.

Or if importing them imposes costs on us or they might just not be as good so we pay more for the EU products we currently use.

[Carl the Llama]

Anyway I'm being antisocial at a family gathering so gotta jet now and talk about brexit some more IRL.

[Webbo]

7 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Sorry I thought it was obvious that by talking about MEP elections and national elections that EP meant Euro Parliament and EC the council. I'll try not to assume these things in future.

But you'd already mentioned the MEP elections and I didn't think you'd mention the same thing twice with a different name

37 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Absolutely if you ignore the MEP elections and our own national elections to select our reps at the EP and EC respectively.

Sorry my misinterpretation of your post. Enjoy your family gathering.

 

(Is anyone getting bored of me being polite yet?   )

[Webbo]

6 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Or if importing them imposes costs on us or they might just not be as good so we pay more for the EU products we currently use.

You'll have to explain that one to me tomorrow.

[Buce]

 

 

Anchor butter, once as much a part of New Zealand as the All Blacks rugby team, is now made in Britain.

Owner of the brand, Arla, has moved production of the dairy product to Westbury in Wiltshire, breaking a tradition which lasted over 120 years and returning the butter to its English roots.

The original recipe was created in 1886 by Harry Reynolds, a Cornish dairyman who had emigrated to the other side of the world.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2569867/Anchor-New-Zealand-butter-Wiltshire-Brand-owner-breaks-tradition-120-years-moving-production-UK.html#ixzz57yEzo9eU
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[Foxxed]

On 22/02/2018 at 08:44, Webbo said:

Atm the EU controls those things and they're not accountable to the electorate. They could change the rules and there's nothing you can do about it. If our govt changes employment rights they will have to face the electorate. Its called democracy, its what we voted for.

Have we still failed to understand the role of the European Parliament and EU Council, both of whom we directly vote, through our national elections and EU elections? But if you're still enjoying painfully parading out this tired distortion year after year then please continue to ignore the above.

Edited 23 February 2018 by Foxxed

[theessexfox]

7 minutes ago, Foxxed said:

Have we still failed to understand the role of the European Parliament and EU Council, both of whom we directly vote, through our national elections and EU elections? But if you're still enjoying painfully parading out this tired distortion year after year then please continue to ignore the above.

That might hold a little more weight if there was any discussion in the run-up to elections about what our head of state does at the European Council, or which commissioner the PM appoints to the Council of the European Union and the role he/she fulfills. As it is, there is next to no salience on this issue at General Elections and thus this function of our executive goes almost totally unscrutinised. Yes, theoretically we have a degree of control over our representatives at the EU as a whole but Webbo's point is that our national executive is far more directly accountable to us and can be thrown out of government as a whole if they are unpopular enough.

Edited 23 February 2018 by theessexfox

[Carl the Llama]

38 minutes ago, Webbo said:

But you'd already mentioned the MEP elections and I didn't think you'd mention the same thing twice with a different name

Sorry my misinterpretation of your post. Enjoy your family gathering.

 

(Is anyone getting bored of me being polite yet?   )

Think you need to read the original post back, it should make more sense now I hope. 

 

39 minutes ago, Webbo said:

You'll have to explain that one to me tomorrow.

Yeah sorry family gathering = alcohol = poor wording, I mean there may be other costs beyond our own tariffs and if the products aren't as good as what we get from the EU, continuing to use the EU product will most likely cost us more than it does atm. Hope that's more clear. I'll try again demain if not.

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Carl the Llama said:

Think you need to read the original post back, it should make more sense now I hope. 

 

Yeah sorry family gathering = alcohol = poor wording, I mean there may be other costs beyond our own tariffs and if the products aren't as good as what we get from the EU, continuing to use the EU product will most likely cost us more than it does atm. Hope that's more clear. I'll try again demain if not.

We'll only buy stuff if its better value than what we're already buying, why else would we buy it? 

[Alf Bentley]

5 hours ago, Webbo said:

I didn't say and neither did Melanie Phillips say they represented your views. She was talking about academics in academia.

 

Sorry, I didn't notice this comment when I replied before. So you think that whole article was about academics in academia? I fundamentally disagree.

The clue is already there in the title: "Intellectuals who champion life outside the EU are the latest victims of the thought police" (i.e. there were other "victims" before the academics, in her view).

 

Admittedly, it is often hard to tell exactly who she is accusing as she deliberately uses the passive a lot. Why does she do that, do you think? If Remainer academics are doing dreadful things, she has no reason not to name them. She is not an academic herself, she is a journalist whose views are well-known. Indeed, as a journalist surely she's under a professional obligation to expose these oppressive people in another profession?

 

So, when she accuses unnamed people of deeming "Brexit supporters" (not "Brexit academics") to be "Nazis and stunted imbeciles", you think she's blaming academics in academia....despite the fact she goes on to attribute these acts to "many Remainers"? Likewise, when she accuses "Remainers" (not academics) of "not valuing / despising democratic sovereignty", she really means academics, does she? When she says that sceptical scientists have been "compared to Holocaust deniers and targeted for calls that they be jailed, subjected to aversion therapy or drowned", why does she not name the academics responsible? Some of those acts, if true, would be clear professional misconduct, if not crimes. And when she closes by saying "The millions who voted for Brexit demonstrated that the mainstream was somewhere else.....That's why the battle over Brexit is now a fight to the death", you think that's all about academics in academia, do you?! 

 

She refers to academics in a couple of paragraphs, but most of the vitriol is directed much more widely - at Remainers / the "liberal elite" in general. So, I most definitely DO take it as a vile misrepresentation of my views.

 

I don't deny that there are some Brexiteers, both academics and others, who feel vulnerable knowing that they're in a minority where they work. I'm sure there are also a few that receive abuse - something that I absolutely condemn. But I'm sure that applies in both directions. After all, Brexit voters were 52% of the population and we're all agreed that there hasn't been a massive shift since. In academia, Remainers will be the majority in most - but not all - departments and institutions. In other environments (many businesses and workplaces) support for Brexit will be the dominant position and it will be some Remainers who feel hesitant to voice their views or who are abused for their opinions.

 

 

[Webbo]

5 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Sorry, I didn't notice this comment when I replied before. So you think that whole article was about academics in academia? I fundamentally disagree.

The clue is already there in the title: "Intellectuals who champion life outside the EU are the latest victims of the thought police" (i.e. there were other "victims" before the academics, in her view).

 

Admittedly, it is often hard to tell exactly who she is accusing as she deliberately uses the passive a lot. Why does she do that, do you think? If Remainer academics are doing dreadful things, she has no reason not to name them. She is not an academic herself, she is a journalist whose views are well-known. Indeed, as a journalist surely she's under a professional obligation to expose these oppressive people in another profession?

 

So, when she accuses unnamed people of deeming "Brexit supporters" (not "Brexit academics") to be "Nazis and stunted imbeciles", you think she's blaming academics in academia....despite the fact she goes on to attribute these acts to "many Remainers"? Likewise, when she accuses "Remainers" (not academics) of "not valuing / despising democratic sovereignty", she really means academics, does she? When she says that sceptical scientists have been "compared to Holocaust deniers and targeted for calls that they be jailed, subjected to aversion therapy or drowned", why does she not name the academics responsible? Some of those acts, if true, would be clear professional misconduct, if not crimes. And when she closes by saying "The millions who voted for Brexit demonstrated that the mainstream was somewhere else.....That's why the battle over Brexit is now a fight to the death", you think that's all about academics in academia, do you?! 

 

She refers to academics in a couple of paragraphs, but most of the vitriol is directed much more widely - at Remainers / the "liberal elite" in general. So, I most definitely DO take it as a vile misrepresentation of my views.

 

I don't deny that there are some Brexiteers, both academics and others, who feel vulnerable knowing that they're in a minority where they work. I'm sure there are also a few that receive abuse - something that I absolutely condemn. But I'm sure that applies in both directions. After all, Brexit voters were 52% of the population and we're all agreed that there hasn't been a massive shift since. In academia, Remainers will be the majority in most - but not all - departments and institutions. In other environments (many businesses and workplaces) support for Brexit will be the dominant position and it will be some Remainers who feel hesitant to voice their views or who are abused for their opinions.

 

 

There are definitely people who think that brexiteers are Nazis and imbeciles, I think that's pretty indisputable, and that view is particularly common amongst establishment types. I would imagine any one voted brexit would feel uncomfortable amongst people who hold brexiteers in contempt and the level of hate directed towards them would make them fear for their career and possibly with good reason.

 

Now that's what I believe, I don't suppose for a minute I've convinced you, that's your right. Can we stop repeating ourselves now?

[Carl the Llama]

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

We'll only buy stuff if its better value than what we're already buying, why else would we buy it? 

Right, and if we can't find better value - which seems likely if we want to maintain quality - then we're left in the awkward position of having to pay a worse price for our current trades.

[Alf Bentley]

@Webbo

 

I'd just like to adapt a bit of Melanie Phillips' disgracefully dishonest propaganda so that it points in the other direction. See if you think this would be "a fair assessment":

 

"Remainers are deemed to be communists, traitors, scroungers, immigrant-lovers and, of course, naive, pampered snowflakes. These aren't just insults deployed to smear Remain supporters and shut down debate. Among many Brexiters, there's a deep belief they are true. Brexiters don't value democratic sovereignty. Many despise it. That's why they want to leave the EU. And why they are determined that the Brexit deal must not be subject to a vote in parliament".

I don't think that's "a fair assessment" any more than Phillips' garbage that you stand up for. 

 

I also find it pathetic how some Brexit supporters, like Phillips, try to paint Brexit supporters as powerless victims. A few on both sides get picked on, I'm sure....but the fact remains that you are the majority! You are 52% of the population and control govt!

 

Furthermore, while Phillips rants about the oppression of Brexiters without naming any guilty parties, there have been clear - and much worse - instances of abuse on the other side. In quoting these, I want to make clear that I don't view the culprits as in any way typical of people who voted Leave....yet the likes of Phillips, with your support, are quite happy to attribute the offensive, but unspecific views/acts of a tiny minority of Remainers to "Remainers" or "many Remainers".

- Jo Cox, a known Remainer MP, was brutally murdered just before the end of the referendum campaign by a bloke shouting something like "Britain will always come first". Any equivalent murders of Leave supporters?

- When Gina Miller brought the legal case to ensure that Article 50 went to a parliamentary vote, not just a govt decision, she faced intimidation and threats from Brexit supporters, while the Brexit media accused the judges of being "enemies of the people" ....and yet it is supposedly Remainers who "despise democratic sovereignty"?!

- A bloke was jailed for malicious communications, namely calling Miller a "boat jumper" who should be sent back to her "stinking jungle" and for publicly offering £5000 to the first person who ran her over. According to Wiki, at least 8 others have been given "cease and desist" notices by the police for similar abuse of Miller, who says she has faced threats of acid attacks. Could you cite a Remain supporter jailed for similar violence?

[Alf Bentley]

58 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I don't deny that there are some Brexiteers, both academics and others, who feel vulnerable knowing that they're in a minority where they work. I'm sure there are also a few that receive abuse - something that I absolutely condemn. But I'm sure that applies in both directions. After all, Brexit voters were 52% of the population and we're all agreed that there hasn't been a massive shift since. In academia, Remainers will be the majority in most - but not all - departments and institutions. In other environments (many businesses and workplaces) support for Brexit will be the dominant position and it will be some Remainers who feel hesitant to voice their views or who are abused for their opinions.

 

 

 

43 minutes ago, Webbo said:

There are definitely people who think that brexiteers are Nazis and imbeciles, I think that's pretty indisputable, and that view is particularly common amongst establishment types. I would imagine any one voted brexit would feel uncomfortable amongst people who hold brexiteers in contempt and the level of hate directed towards them would make them fear for their career and possibly with good reason.

 

Now that's what I believe, I don't suppose for a minute I've convinced you, that's your right. Can we stop repeating ourselves now?

 

You have no need to convince me that there are people who have offensive opinions of Brexiteers or who hold them in contempt. I stated as much in the post that you were responding to (in bold above).

Presumably, you will similarly admit that there are Brexit supporters who hold Remainers in contempt and view them as naive fools, traitorous communists etc?

I've never denied that there are people with narrow-minded, contemptuous attitudes on both sides. My problem is when people like Phillips use propaganda to apply that to "Remainers" in general or "many Remainers" etc.

 

A fair few Remainers view many Brexiteers as "imbeciles", just as a fair few Brexiteers view many Remainers as privileged, naive, virtue-signalling twats. "Racists" would be another common accusation - true of a minority, but not the majority, I'd say, just as it's true that a minority of Remainers are naive, virtue-signalling twats! "Nazis" would be a less common view, one limited to a few students and Hard Left loudmouths, I'd say - just as only a few Brexiteers would see Remainers as "traitors".

 

As I said in the post that you replied to, I'm sure some on both sides who are in a minority where they work feel vulnerable in various ways - sometimes with justification, sometimes not.

 

You always seem very loath to admit any failings of even a tiny minority on your own side, Webbo, I must say.

[Carl the Llama]

8 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

@Webbo

+1 but could easily be a sad face for the tragic picture it paints of the state we live in.  

 

Don't buy the fear for one's job because I support brexit argument for one second though. If you're doing your job properly then you'll have an easy time at the tribunal when you get sacked for your personal beliefs. I need evidence of this being the case anywhere before I accept what on the face of it seems like posturing, especially given how being a brexit man puts you in the majority and therefore more likely to have a boss who agrees with you...

[Rogstanley]

On 30/01/2018 at 22:47, Rogstanley said:

Right wing terrorist tries to explain his way out of trouble by saying "a guy called Dave" was driving the van that crashed into and killed people in London last year. 

 

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42875216

 

Oh well if it was Dave driving we better let this guy go then. 

 

Also says his original targets were Jeremy Corbyn and Sadiq Khan. Hard to avoid the conclusion that the relentless hate-filled criticism of Corbyn and Khan from the current government, who really ought to be concentrating on doing their ****ing job, contributed significantly to this man's mindset. Blood on the tory's hands.

^^^ the “most vile post” Webbo has ever seen on the Internet, ever.

 

Mattp responses with “at least he had good intentions” and Webbo repped it with an  

 

 

 

 

 

blimey

[Wymsey]

3 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

^^^ the “most vile post” Webbo has ever seen on the Internet, ever.

 

Mattp responses with “at least he had good intentions” and Webbo repped it with an  

 

 

 

 

 

blimey

Don't see his username stating that he did?

[Rogstanley]

Just now, Wymeswold fox said:

Don't see his username stating that he did?

What?

[Wymsey]

4 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

What?

&

[Rogstanley]

3 minutes ago, Wymeswold fox said:

&

Bloody hell. You’re right.

 

Still, it’s not the most vile thing ever written.

[Rogstanley]

24 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

+1 but could easily be a sad face for the tragic picture it paints of the state we live in.  

 

Don't buy the fear for one's job because I support brexit argument for one second though. If you're doing your job properly then you'll have an easy time at the tribunal when you get sacked for your personal beliefs. I need evidence of this being the case anywhere before I accept what on the face of it seems like posturing, especially given how being a brexit man puts you in the majority and therefore more likely to have a boss who agrees with you...

In my experience people hardly talk about politics at work at all. Not out of fear for their job, but because most people don’t really care that much. The idea that we’re all obsessed by politics and spend our time at work talking about it can only have been dreamed up by an unimaginative self-obsessed politician. 

 

That said, I guess in the world of academia they do talk about politics more often. They have to fill those slow, workless days with something, afterall.

[Carl the Llama]

11 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

In my experience people hardly talk about politics at work at all. Not out of fear for their job, but because most people don’t really care that much. The idea that we’re all obsessed by politics and spend our time at work talking about it can only have been dreamed up by an unimaginative self-obsessed politician. 

 

That said, I guess in the world of academia they do talk about politics more often. They have to fill those slow, workless days with something, afterall.

I dunno... when I was in the kitchen we had plenty of time to shoot the shit while we got on with work, must be plenty of workplaces that applies to as well.

[leicsmac]

3 hours ago, Webbo said:

There are definitely people who think that brexiteers are Nazis and imbeciles, I think that's pretty indisputable, and that view is particularly common amongst establishment types. I would imagine any one voted brexit would feel uncomfortable amongst people who hold brexiteers in contempt and the level of hate directed towards them would make them fear for their career and possibly with good reason.

 

Now that's what I believe, I don't suppose for a minute I've convinced you, that's your right. Can we stop repeating ourselves now?

 

2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

@Webbo

 

I'd just like to adapt a bit of Melanie Phillips' disgracefully dishonest propaganda so that it points in the other direction. See if you think this would be "a fair assessment":

 

"Remainers are deemed to be communists, traitors, scroungers, immigrant-lovers and, of course, naive, pampered snowflakes. These aren't just insults deployed to smear Remain supporters and shut down debate. Among many Brexiters, there's a deep belief they are true. Brexiters don't value democratic sovereignty. Many despise it. That's why they want to leave the EU. And why they are determined that the Brexit deal must not be subject to a vote in parliament".

I don't think that's "a fair assessment" any more than Phillips' garbage that you stand up for. 

 

I also find it pathetic how some Brexit supporters, like Phillips, try to paint Brexit supporters as powerless victims. A few on both sides get picked on, I'm sure....but the fact remains that you are the majority! You are 52% of the population and control govt!

 

Furthermore, while Phillips rants about the oppression of Brexiters without naming any guilty parties, there have been clear - and much worse - instances of abuse on the other side. In quoting these, I want to make clear that I don't view the culprits as in any way typical of people who voted Leave....yet the likes of Phillips, with your support, are quite happy to attribute the offensive, but unspecific views/acts of a tiny minority of Remainers to "Remainers" or "many Remainers".

- Jo Cox, a known Remainer MP, was brutally murdered just before the end of the referendum campaign by a bloke shouting something like "Britain will always come first". Any equivalent murders of Leave supporters?

- When Gina Miller brought the legal case to ensure that Article 50 went to a parliamentary vote, not just a govt decision, she faced intimidation and threats from Brexit supporters, while the Brexit media accused the judges of being "enemies of the people" ....and yet it is supposedly Remainers who "despise democratic sovereignty"?!

- A bloke was jailed for malicious communications, namely calling Miller a "boat jumper" who should be sent back to her "stinking jungle" and for publicly offering £5000 to the first person who ran her over. According to Wiki, at least 8 others have been given "cease and desist" notices by the police for similar abuse of Miller, who says she has faced threats of acid attacks. Could you cite a Remain supporter jailed for similar violence?

I feel somewhat responsible for starting this whole lot off by referencing Ms Phillips article in the first place.

 

FWIW I still think the point of my doing so was to draw attention to her disparaging of the scientific community in the name of furthering her own religious agenda, and that it did a disservice to Brexit by comparing those who support it to those who support two theories treated with dismissal (and most certainly not contempt or anything that would come close to career threatening) in the scientific community, rather than a wider debate regarding Brexit in its own instance.

 

 

1 hour ago, Rogstanley said:

In my experience people hardly talk about politics at work at all. Not out of fear for their job, but because most people don’t really care that much. The idea that we’re all obsessed by politics and spend our time at work talking about it can only have been dreamed up by an unimaginative self-obsessed politician. 

 

That said, I guess in the world of academia they do talk about politics more often. They have to fill those slow, workless days with something, afterall.

That's Mr. Slow Workless Day to you, ser.

[Rogstanley]

Fears of a developing meat scandal as it becomes apparent that British meat factories are routinely failing to meet standards

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/23/fear-of-uk-meat-scandal-as-data-shows-hygiene-breaches-at-most-plants

 

Capitalism needs to be regulated. If the regulations aren’t enforced and businesses know they can get away with not adhering to them you’re going to have problems.