murphy Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 1 hour ago, Rogstanley said: We already have free trade with Morocco via the EU, so if we don’t buy oranges from there already then it’s probably because they’re more expensive or of lower quality. So, assuming we quickly agree a free trade deal with Morocco, which is by no means guaranteed, we will still be worse off. Wait, so Morrocco has a free trade deal with the EU? You sure about that? Then surely we can get one. No need for all the panic I keep hearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogstanley Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, murphy said: Wait, so Morrocco has a free trade deal with the EU? You sure about that? Then surely we can get one. No need for all the panic I keep hearing. Pretty sure yes. The EU has loads of trade deals, free or otherwise. There’s no panic, it’s just that as I said, if Moroccan oranges were better or cheaper we’d already be buying them. If we’re not already buying them, then that must be because they’re more expensive, worse quality or both. There’s no panic, just people asking what the point in all this is when, as you’ve seen, in the case of Moroccan oranges and many more things besides, there is no possible scenario in which the situation is improved (we can’t get better than a free trade deal) but plenty of ways in which it could get worse (having to buy lower quality and more expensive oranges). It’s all downside with no upside. The worst kind of gamble imaginable. Edited 24 February 2018 by Rogstanley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murphy Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 1 minute ago, Rogstanley said: Pretty sure yes. The EU has loads of trade deals, free or otherwise. There’s no panic, it’s just that as I said, if Moroccan oranges were better or cheaper we’d already be buying them. If we’re not already buying them, then that must be because they’re more expensive, worse quality or both. There’s no panic, just people asking what the point in all this is when, as you’ve seen, in the case of Moroccan oranges and many more things besides, there is no possible scenario in which the situation is improved (we can’t get better than a free trade deal) but plenty of ways in which it could get worse (having to buy lower quality and more expensive oranges). Well like you say, maybe we do get them from Morrocco, doesn't really matter, we would always be able to get free deals, Morrrocco or elsewhere. It was just a flippant comment to show that there could be free alternatives to EU. As for the situation not being improved, IMO there is plenty of scope for improvement. Let's not pretend that our current arrangement with the EU is actually free. It costs us £8bn a year net and costs us open borders and subservience to EU rules and law. Unless someone can tell me I'm wrong, I believe that the tarrifs we would pay would be less than the £8bn we pay into their coffers. Instant improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSi13 Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 Airbus and Siemens both commit to post-Brexit Britain: https://news.sky.com/story/siemens-boss-my-confidence-in-britains-future-after-brexit-10818704 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-22/airbus-ceo-vows-to-stay-in-post-brexit-u-k-for-a-very-long-time Meanwhile the Bank of America, Goldman Sachs and Bloomberg have all committed to London with new HQ's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 36 minutes ago, Webbo said: Just because you don't like my answers doesn't mean I haven't answered them. I believe it, you don't, lets leave it at that. Yeah, probably best to leave it at that as we are just going in circles - I'll make one more post and drop it. I have to say that I'm saddened that someone like Ms Phillips can write unsubstantiated and unevidenced disparaging about the scientific community and that people will buy it without asking for any kind of verification from her (you know, as the scientific method demands), but then I guess I shouldn't be surprised given the contempt that has been shown towards the STEM community from various parties in the past. And you are right - you don't have to be religious to defend the rights of religious people - nor to push for the primacy of unsubstantiated religious theories over scientific ones, apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 1 minute ago, leicsmac said: Yeah, probably best to leave it at that as we are just going in circles - I'll make one more post and drop it. I have to say that I'm saddened that someone like Ms Phillips can write unsubstantiated and unevidenced disparaging about the scientific community and that people will buy it without asking for any kind of verification from her (you know, as the scientific method demands), but then I guess I shouldn't be surprised given the contempt that has been shown towards the STEM community from various parties in the past. And you are right - you don't have to be religious to defend the rights of religious people - nor to push for the primacy of unsubstantiated religious theories over scientific ones, apparently. I don't think it's unsubstantiated but yeah, lets leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogstanley Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 3 minutes ago, murphy said: Well like you say, maybe we do get them from Morrocco, doesn't really matter, we would always be able to get free deals, Morrrocco or elsewhere. It was just a flippant comment to show that there could be free alternatives to EU. As for the situation not being improved, IMO there is plenty of scope for improvement. Let's not pretend that our current arrangement with the EU is actually free. It costs us £8bn a year net and costs us open borders and subservience to EU rules and law. Unless someone can tell me I'm wrong, I believe that the tarrifs we would pay would be less than the £8bn we pay into their coffers. Instant improvement. The weakness of the pound dwarfs that straight away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogstanley Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 2 minutes ago, Webbo said: I don't think it's unsubstantiated but yeah, lets leave it at that. It clearly was unsubstantiated There’s a difference between substantiation and truth. You can argue it was true if you like. You can’t argue that it was substantiated because it just wasn’t. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murphy Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 4 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: The weakness of the pound dwarfs that straight away. Good for exports. I think we need to give it our best shot and be positive. All of this self doubt and throwing obstacles in the way - and I'm talking about remainers generally, not you - is doing the EU's job for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donut Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 18 hours ago, Webbo said: But you didn't vote for the rules that we have under the EU now so you haven't got less choice than you had before So essentially youre saying what i said, that you dont actually GAIN any more control then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 59 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: It clearly was unsubstantiated There’s a difference between substantiation and truth. You can argue it was true if you like. You can’t argue that it was substantiated because it just wasn’t. Keep burying your head in the sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 2 minutes ago, Donut said: So essentially youre saying what i said, that you dont actually GAIN any more control then? No, I never said you were no better off, I think you are, you can vote your govt out, I said you were no worse off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donut Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 18 hours ago, MattP said: Have you got a link to this? Where have we decided to put a hard border up? As for the other parts, the government won an election 8 months ago where they comitted to those things, the Labour party also at that time supported it. If the public wanted a government to remain in the SM and CU they could have voted for the Lib Dems, Greens or the SNP. Instead 85% of the electorate didn't . Im not saying there will DEFINITELY be a hard border i used it as an example, but if the government dont consult the public on the actual exit terms then its no more democratic than the situation under the EU because all the rules were designed FOR us and we didnt have any input into them. "Booting Out" a political party is something i could have already done so i have gained nothing in that regard and if the party i "boot out" has made lots of brexit commitments the next government cant undo, or even if i choose the same government but dont like the strategy there is nothing i or anyone else who disagrees can do about it. So im saying if the conservatives did put up a hard border and people didnt agree with their decision, they cant do anything about it. Also, circumstances change. If people feel they will be worse off by leaving customs union for example, then they cant undo these terms, they will be punished forever without a chance to do anything about it if they arent consulted. Dont throw figures or anything around, they are YOUR opinion, like its THEIR opinion to interpret the numbers how they choose. You also assume that 85% of people who voted are sensible enough to know the consequences of their vote, and OBVIOUSLY a lot do, but some people simply do not. Some people ARE racist, some people ARE thick, some people ARE xenophobic, some dont have a clue what the EU even does and some people DO hold opinions and prejudices that arent true like EU takes away all our freedom etc. So to say all 85% of people KNEW what they were getting into is wrong. So like i posted with Webbo's post i havent GAINED anything out of "taking back control" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donut Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 13 minutes ago, Webbo said: No, I never said you were no better off, I think you are, you can vote your govt out, I said you were no worse off. I could always vote a government out. this isnt a new phenomenon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 Just now, Donut said: I could always vote a government out. this isnt a new phenomenon. But it didn't matter if you did because the EU commission decided our laws anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donut Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 1 minute ago, Webbo said: But it didn't matter if you did because the EU commission decided our laws anyway. Laws that 99% of them you couldnt name, laws that had absolutely no effect on my life whatsoever, and laws that will just be decided by other beauracrats with out our input anyway. Why did we even bother having elections in this country if what youre saying is correct? there would be no point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 3 minutes ago, Donut said: Laws that 99% of them you couldnt name, laws that had absolutely no effect on my life whatsoever, and laws that will just be decided by other beauracrats with out our input anyway. Why did we even bother having elections in this country if what youre saying is correct? there would be no point. I'm not a lawyer. Can you tell me a law they didn't create since 2015? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donut Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 Just now, Webbo said: I'm not a lawyer. Can you tell me a law they didn't create since 2015? So you cant name any then. Youre angry youre living in a political system thats damaging your life by imposing laws on you that you cant name and that you dont know what they are. Theres no point in me telling you what laws the EU didnt create or how many because ive just said that none of the laws the EU created were damaging my life or taking away my freedom. You must have felt that there were laws that were doing this because you wanted to "take back control" yet you cant say what they are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 1 minute ago, Donut said: So you cant name any then. Youre angry youre living in a political system thats damaging your life by imposing laws on you that you cant name and that you dont know what they are. Theres no point in me telling you what laws the EU didnt create or how many because ive just said that none of the laws the EU created were damaging my life or taking away my freedom. You must have felt that there were laws that were doing this because you wanted to "take back control" yet you cant say what they are. I don't keep a list of every law that's passed in this country, do you? Atm if there's a law passed that we don't like we don't know who to blame. No excuses after we've left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donut Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 3 minutes ago, Webbo said: I don't keep a list of every law that's passed in this country, do you? Atm if there's a law passed that we don't like we don't know who to blame. No excuses after we've left. If you didnt like a law, youd be able to name it, and you cant name any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogstanley Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 38 minutes ago, Webbo said: Keep burying your head in the sand. You don't know what the words you use even mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogstanley Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 6 minutes ago, Webbo said: I don't keep a list of every law that's passed in this country, do you? Atm if there's a law passed that we don't like we don't know who to blame. No excuses after we've left. You're asserting that you don't like EU law but can't describe how a single one such law works. It's farcical mate, it really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 4 minutes ago, Donut said: If you didnt like a law, youd be able to name it, and you cant name any. The common fisheries policy, the common agricultural policy, the external tariff, uncontrolled freedom of movement, our contribution to the budget,working time directive there's the new financial services regs that the city are complaining about. I'm sure there are others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 1 minute ago, Rogstanley said: You're asserting that you don't like EU law but can't describe how a single one such law works. It's farcical mate, it really is. I don't have to justify myself, we won. If you want to change people's minds it's up to you to do the convincing. What improvements have the EU brought that we couldn't have done for ourselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogstanley Posted 24 February 2018 Share Posted 24 February 2018 Just now, Webbo said: I don't have to justify myself, we won. If you want to change people's minds it's up to you to do the convincing. What improvements have the EU brought that we couldn't have done for ourselves? Regional peace Free trade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts