leicsmac Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 4 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: The one that was on the ballot paper. We weren't asked to grade on a scale of one to ten how distant we'd like to be from the EU, just whether we wanted to be in or out. Whatever happens now there's going to be shitloads of disappointed and angry people who won't get whatever they thought (or were told) they were voting for. The whole thing was an ill-thought out mess before we'd even gone to the polls. 1 This. This is sadly an inevitability no matter what goes on from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 Wasn't sure what the 'Finnish model' was so looked it up on google. Finally a policy I can get behind. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathrow fox Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 4 hours ago, MattP said: I think the Brexit saga will be with us for the rest of our lifetimes, anything that is this divisive is going to be. The passionate Remainers aren't going to stop campaigning to rejoin and vice veras, the only thing that can rid us of it is the whole project collapsing so it becomes irrelevent to the domestic political debate. I think people are getting a bit carried away with the disposal of May, they still haven't reached the number of letters to even get a challenge, let alone get the 160 odd MP's they would need to vote against and remove her, it will happen before the next election I know, but the the Hard Brexiteers are just going to remove her at any point doesn't seem as likely as many think. Your last point for me is the most likely, I think the Hard Brexiteers might even fall behind the Gove logic eventually, get the legal Brexit done and then change process through election and government. The whole project collapsing issue is one given very little thought by our pro EU media.People tend to forget that we aren’t the only country who’s working class is a little miffed as to why we are actually in project make Germany wealthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 Has there ever been a policy where everyone has been happy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: @Buce *Ahem* have a read of this me old mucker: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia 1-0 as they say. PS. I'm taking back that rep I gave you for correcting my error. Give me back my rep point! https://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/forums/europe-scandinavia-the-nordics/finland/is-finland-in-scandinavia-or-not https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/22jfrb/why_is_finland_not_considered_to_be_part_of/ https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Finland-not-considered-a-Scandinavian-country https://anthropologist.livejournal.com/816992.html One nil and you fvcked it up, one nil and you fvcked it up... Edited 18 July 2018 by Buce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 1 hour ago, Webbo said: Has there ever been a policy where everyone has been happy? We're not talking about "a policy" though, are we? We're talking about the biggest constitutional change for decades enacted in the name of 17 million different people who voted directly for it and had in their own minds many different outcomes as their reasons for doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 Just now, Voll Blau said: We're not talking about "a policy" though, are we? We're talking about the biggest constitutional change for decades enacted in the name of 17 million different people who voted directly for it and had in their own minds many different outcomes as their reasons for doing so. Well the result suggests that the majority weren't happy with the current constitutional position. If we don't leave there will be more people unhappy than if we do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, Webbo said: Well the result suggests that the majority weren't happy with the current constitutional position. If we don't leave there will be more people unhappy than if we do. And how many of those who voted to leave will still be unhappy at the type of Leave that is engaged in, no matter which one? I would wager a reasonable amount. Edited 18 July 2018 by leicsmac 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 Just now, leicsmac said: And how many of those who voted to leave will still be unhappy at the type of Leave that is engaged in, no matter which one? I would wager a reasonable amount. They'd be more unhappy with remain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 1 hour ago, Webbo said: Well the result suggests that the majority weren't happy with the current constitutional position. If we don't leave there will be more people unhappy than if we do. When the promises people were sold in order to convince them to vote for it don't materialise, that's going to be a huge issue. People are going to feel cheated and lied to (if they don't already). Like I said to yer man above who I initially responded to, technically he's going to get the only thing that mattered, because it was the only question on the ballot paper. He clearly doesn't see it that way, because just leaving "in name only" isn't enough, and no matter how hard the Brexit becomes it will still never be enough for some. If leaving the EU was the sole goal, as specified on the ballot paper, that should be enough to satisfy everyone who voted for it. Like I say, immensely ill-thought out and we're all going to pay the price for that to some degree, no matter which way we voted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 1 hour ago, Webbo said: They'd be more unhappy with remain. Even if their living standards end up dropping as a result of leaving? Not bloody likely. You're vastly underestimating the number of reasons felt compelled to vote for it, and what they thought, and were told, they'd get in return. This was never just about "sovereignty" for most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 5 minutes ago, Webbo said: Has there ever been a policy where everyone has been happy? Definitely not. That said this one is particularly difficult. Do we want a: Hard Brexit Soft Brexit No Brexit Brexit Brexit Mild Brexit Lame Brexit Good Brexit Bad Brexit Semi Soft Brexit Semi Hard Brexit Most people don't know what those things are, most couldn't care less. Its particularly tough that whichever way you look at in 50% of the population are going to be pissed off! even if we have a hard Brexit, did all those that voted for Brexit vote for hard Brexit. If we have soft Brexit the hard brexiteers will be pissed but the remainers will be pissed because we are still not in the EU! So potentially every which way you have 50+ of the population are not happy! Surely this is not good for the nation in any way shape or form. Again I can get behind some of the concepts of Brexit, but in the world we are in with the establishment we have, and the type of people we have in the country and running it; it would be immensely difficult to achieve a Brexit which will be beneficial to the country I feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 4 minutes ago, Webbo said: They'd be more unhappy with remain. Most likely, but the point being made is that no matter what choice is made now (Remain or any of the styles of Leave) there is going to be a sizeable majority of people pissed off in the way that VB suggested, simply because they won't get exactly what they voted for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 Just now, Foxin_mad said: Definitely not. That said this one is particularly difficult. Do we want a: Hard Brexit Soft Brexit No Brexit Brexit Brexit Mild Brexit Lame Brexit Good Brexit Bad Brexit Semi Soft Brexit Semi Hard Brexit Most people don't know what those things are, most couldn't care less. Its particularly tough that whichever way you look at in 50% of the population are going to be pissed off! even if we have a hard Brexit, did all those that voted for Brexit vote for hard Brexit. If we have soft Brexit the hard brexiteers will be pissed but the remainers will be pissed because we are still not in the EU! So potentially every which way you have 50+ of the population are not happy! Surely this is not good for the nation in any way shape or form. Again I can get behind some of the concepts of Brexit, but in the world we are in with the establishment we have, and the type of people we have in the country and running it; it would be immensely difficult to achieve a Brexit which will be beneficial to the country I feel. Hmm...though most people wouldn't be able to pick between all those Brexits, I'm betting there's some red lines that are part of them that they're very interested in and would be annoyed if were crossed. Rest of your post is spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 7 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Most likely, but the point being made is that no matter what choice is made now (Remain or any of the styles of Leave) there is going to be a sizeable majority of people pissed off in the way that VB suggested, simply because they won't get exactly what they voted for. That happens every time we have a vote on anything. The winning side is happy and the losing side is unhappy. People voted to leave, they might not get exactly the leave they wanted but despite reports to the contrary most of us are pragmatic and will accept getting most of what they wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 7 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: Definitely not. That said this one is particularly difficult. Do we want a: Hard Brexit Soft Brexit No Brexit Brexit Brexit Mild Brexit Lame Brexit Good Brexit Bad Brexit Semi Soft Brexit Semi Hard Brexit Most people don't know what those things are, most couldn't care less. Its particularly tough that whichever way you look at in 50% of the population are going to be pissed off! even if we have a hard Brexit, did all those that voted for Brexit vote for hard Brexit. If we have soft Brexit the hard brexiteers will be pissed but the remainers will be pissed because we are still not in the EU! So potentially every which way you have 50+ of the population are not happy! Surely this is not good for the nation in any way shape or form. Again I can get behind some of the concepts of Brexit, but in the world we are in with the establishment we have, and the type of people we have in the country and running it; it would be immensely difficult to achieve a Brexit which will be beneficial to the country I feel. What people want is the decisions that affect them being taken by people they voted for and can vote out. If our politicians cock up then they'll pay the price and somebody else will be voted in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 1 hour ago, Webbo said: That happens every time we have a vote on anything. The winning side is happy and the losing side is unhappy. People voted to leave, they might not get exactly the leave they wanted but despite reports to the contrary most of us are pragmatic and will accept getting most of what they wanted. That's extremely naive. Plenty of people on the "winning" side here seem miffed at the moment as to what they're going to get, and that's a problem that will only get worse once whatever happens actually comes to fruition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 1 minute ago, Webbo said: That happens every time we have a vote on anything. The winning side is happy and the losing side is unhappy. People voted to leave, they might not get exactly the leave they wanted but despite reports to the contrary most of us are pragmatic and will accept getting most of what they wanted. I think the additional complications represented by the type of Leave that happens is being underestimated here - there are some fairly significant differences that will annoy a lot of people IMO. We've had enough debate just in here about it where people have their lines in the sand concerning it. After all, the Leavers won the vote and that means they should get what they wanted and be happy, as you said - except a good proportion of them might not get what they want even when the UK does leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 11 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: Even if their living standards end up dropping as a result of leaving? Not bloody likely. You're vastly underestimating the number of reasons felt compelled to vote for it, and what they thought, and were told, they'd get in return. This was never just about "sovereignty" for most. We've been told this is going to happen for the last 2 years and it hasn't happened yet. Wages had been growing slower than inflation since 2008, while we were definitely still in the EU. Living standards in Southern Europe have nose drived. Being in the EU is not a guarantee of prosperity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 1 hour ago, Webbo said: What people want is the decisions that affect them being taken by people they voted for and can vote out. If our politicians cock up then they'll pay the price and somebody else will be voted in. That's what you want, and what you think everyone who voted the same way as you wants. It's simply not the case. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 1 minute ago, Voll Blau said: That's extremely naive. Plenty of people on the "winning" side here seem miffed at the moment as to what they're going to get, and that's a problem that will only get worse once whatever happens actually comes to fruition. I guarantee they will be more miffed if we don't leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 1 hour ago, Webbo said: We've been told this is going to happen for the last 2 years and it hasn't happened yet. Wages had been growing slower than inflation since 2008, while we were definitely still in the EU. Living standards in Southern Europe have nose drived. Being in the EU is not a guarantee of prosperity. I'm not saying it is, but people will be very pissed off if (not guarantee either by the way, I know that) their living standards were to get worse after we leave when they were told by those who campaigned for it that they would get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 Just now, Voll Blau said: That's what you want, and what you think everyone who voted the same way as you wants. It's simply not the case. You voted remain and you're telling me what leavers want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathrow fox Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 Freedom of movement is the big one that the EU will fight tooth and nail for.If we don’t except that then nothing else follows.I would say it’s the biggest reason people voted to leave aswell. There is no way the EU will except the end of freedom of movement as it is the life blood of the EU.Flood country’s with cheap labour,keep wages low and rents high.Make the rich richer and the poor poorer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 18 July 2018 Share Posted 18 July 2018 1 minute ago, Voll Blau said: I'm not saying it is, but people will be very pissed off if (not guarantee either by the way, I know that) their living standards were to get worse after we leave when they were told by those who campaigned for it that they would get better. At the minute there's no proof we would be worse off long term. If we left with no deal there would probably be 6 months of disruption/recession , which would affect the EU too, but we'd soon recover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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