DJ Barry Hammond Posted 19 July 2017 Author Share Posted 19 July 2017 34 minutes ago, KingGTF said: Tax credits was the state intervening to correct state intervention and now you think we need state intervention to correct the failures of the state intervening Well isn't that what The Spectator article is alluding too? One of the things I wonder is whether it would be better to have a higher level of unemployed, rather than have an economy awash with the low level, pretty much garbage jobs that it has now - but clearly that's not a policy either political party will look to follow given how unacceptable that would be to the electorate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 10 hours ago, Mike Oxlong said: The scary thing is that they don't exactly look out of place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 I think they're one and the same thing regarding your first para. What was the state intervention that tax credits was correcting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Floyd Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 2 hours ago, Buce said: The scary thing is that they don't exactly look out of place. Yeah, I've always imagined JRM with a tattooed beer belly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 (edited) Well you could argue that if the government didn't tax people on minimum wage at all they would have to pay less in in work benefits, also if the government stopped the flow of unskilled migration from Europe and elsewhere, this would not continue to drive down wages in low skilled jobs if there is a supply of low skilled workers form Romania and Poland etc. getting paid more to pick strawberries here that a skilled job back home it a no brainer for them! Obviously the recent increases in tax free allowance have helped workers to keep more but more needs to be done, I would possibly also target National Insurance payments or better still merge the payments into one to reduce the cost and complexity of collecting it. Also interestingly what is the point of collecting rent, council tax etc. on social housing, if a person is eligible to not pay rent and council tax, they should just not pay it instead of being given money to pay it with! What a bureaucratic mess and creation on non jobs that is!! The system basically is: We are going to pay someone to take money off you, we are then going to pay someone to give you the money back so that you can pay someone we pay for the things you need.....utterly bizarre!! Surely most have to admit that's far from ideal and it needs serious reform. We are in a process to fix that and it will take time, quite a long time. The first step is very low unemployment, natural factors as a result of this will then drive up wages. If there are no more staff, companies will have to pay more and invest more to keep the best staff if they don't they will lose them. Edited 20 July 2017 by Foxin_mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, DJ Barry Hammond said: Well isn't that what The Spectator article is alluding too? One of the things I wonder is whether it would be better to have a higher level of unemployed, rather than have an economy awash with the low level, pretty much garbage jobs that it has now - but clearly that's not a policy either political party will look to follow given how unacceptable that would be to the electorate. Never good to have unemployment ever, at least the low skilled jobs are funding part of the living costs. The real question we have to ask is why are the wages in low skilled jobs so low? why are jobs in factories, shops, warehouses, trades, labouring, fruit picking, hospitality awash with foreign staff who can earn more here than they can at home? and Why British people see themselves generally above working in these jobs even if the pay was better? There is a fundamental problem in that by encouraging pretty much every man and his dog to go to university, pretty much everyone wants a cushy well paid white collar job, when the economy needs much more than that. Edited 20 July 2017 by Foxin_mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 31 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: Never good to have unemployment ever, at least the low skilled jobs are funding part of the living costs. The real question we have to ask is why are the wages in low skilled jobs so low? why are jobs in factories, shops, warehouses, trades, labouring, fruit picking, hospitality awash with foreign staff who can earn more here than they can at home? and Why British people see themselves generally above working in these jobs even if the pay was better? There is a fundamental problem in that by encouraging pretty much every man and his dog to go to university, pretty much everyone wants a cushy well paid white collar job, when the economy needs much more than that. I wouldn't necessarily disagree with the idea that foreign workers can have negative impacts upon society - particularly at the lower income end - but do disagree that any government is going to do anything about this. It isn't just eu free trade deals that have movement of people at their heart. If you agree that wages at the low end are too low then i don't understand why you think forcing them to be higher is a bad thing? There clearly does need to be a change of approach to education but, again, it doesn't seem that votes have made any difference to this actually happening - in fact Michael bloody Gove's education 'reforms' (more a return to the dark ages than the enlightenment) seemed to be trading education further away from the direction it should travel in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovindil Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 4 minutes ago, toddybad said: I wouldn't necessarily disagree with the idea that foreign workers can have negative impacts upon society - particularly at the lower income end - but do disagree that any government is going to do anything about this. It isn't just eu free trade deals that have movement of people at their heart. If you agree that wages at the low end are too low then i don't understand why you think forcing them to be higher is a bad thing? There clearly does need to be a change of approach to education but, again, it doesn't seem that votes have made any difference to this actually happening - in fact Michael bloody Gove's education 'reforms' (more a return to the dark ages than the enlightenment) seemed to be trading education further away from the direction it should travel in. If you increase wages at the bottom end yet don't limit immigration what exactly do you think will happen? Do you think brits will be better off? You think the economy will be better off with more money being siphoned off to Romania and Poland? You limit immigration and wages will naturally rise at the bottom as supply starts matching demand. How is this a difficult concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 Unfortunately my believe is that the market should dictate the wage, at present there is a hefty supply of workers who will work for a low wage because it is a lot better than they can get back home, this is the problem with a move towards a federal Europe, there are too many disparities between the countries in the west and the countries in the east. If we increase our minimum wage to £10 an hour, and increase our tax free allowance to 15k. All we will do with open borders is attract even more labour from Europe, of course increasing the minimum wage may also drive inflation at home, so overall we have to be very careful. In my opinion, now with high employment the best thing to do is to stem unskilled migration (I have absolutely no problem with talented skilled individuals who have a skill to offer coming here) and let the market forces drive up wages with the staff shortages. If there are no cheap strawberry pickers they will have to pay more to people to get them picked, there must be a point with wages where British people may consider working in those tough jobs again, the downside is higher wages for staff will possibly lead to some higher prices too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 I would not say all those in low paid jobs are there through thrir own fault. Some take those jobs because there are few for what they are qualified. Also many take jobs like nursing teaching and retail because they want to help people initially not for money but still need to put food on the table and pay bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 20 July 2017 Author Share Posted 20 July 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said: Never good to have unemployment ever, at least the low skilled jobs are funding part of the living costs. The uncomfortable truth is there are cross sections of society that cost more to employ than provide benefits for - and sadly a large proportion of these are natives, which is a damning reflection on our education system and structures around that. The immigration debate on low skilled jobs is not as black and white as you put it either... the trend for importing workers began largely because we had low unemployment and companies were struggling to fill their low paid menial work with workers from within. This is led to creating structures (like agencies specialising in bringing in foreign workers) to fill this void, that simply haven't gone away. The key thing to consider about immigration is that if there's not opportunities, immigration won't happen. For someone to move town, let alone country, they will need work and a roof over there head. Edited 20 July 2017 by DJ Barry Hammond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 36 minutes ago, Innovindil said: If you increase wages at the bottom end yet don't limit immigration what exactly do you think will happen? Do you think brits will be better off? You think the economy will be better off with more money being siphoned off to Romania and Poland? You limit immigration and wages will naturally rise at the bottom as supply starts matching demand. How is this a difficult concept. And do you see any political party that looks like actually limiting immigration? No. because they all believe that immigration is less important than free trade. There's a reason that immigration has only gone up over the years. I'm not saying it's right just pointing out that your preferred option isn't actually an option at the ballet box. You may try to claim the tories will being it down but come on, seriously, if they actually intended to do that they'd have done it by now but no, immigration from outside the eu has gone nowhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 15 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said: The uncomfortable truth is there are cross sections of society that cost more to employ than provide benefits for - and sadly a large proportion of these are natives, which is a damning reflection on our education system and structures around that. The immigration debate on low skilled jobs is not as black and white as you put it either... the trend for importing workers began largely because we had low unemployment and companies were struggling to fill their low paid menial work with workers from within. This is led to creating structures (like agencies specialising in bringing in foreign workers) to fill this void, that simply haven't gone away. The key thing to consider about immigration is that if there's not opportunities, immigration won't happen. For someone to move town, let alone country, they will need work and a roof over there head. There quite clearly is a big structural problem, you have to question why some of our natives would rather sit on their arse than do some hard graft but I suppose that is something that comes with a developed, deindustrialised nation that believes everyone should have a white collar job where you sit in a nice office. Certainly increasing the minimum wage here probably isn't going to help many people here. If anything the effect is likely to be negative through inflation to the vast majority of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 20 July 2017 Author Share Posted 20 July 2017 5 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: There quite clearly is a big structural problem, you have to question why some of our natives would rather sit on their arse than do some hard graft but I suppose that is something that comes with a developed, deindustrialised nation that believes everyone should have a white collar job where you sit in a nice office. Certainly increasing the minimum wage here probably isn't going to help many people here. If anything the effect is likely to be negative through inflation to the vast majority of people. One of the issues I sense is that austerity gave private business the excuses to suppress its own costs against workers and has ended up building in a profit margin that is unsustainable long term. For example the middle-class worker has seen themselves asked to do more for the same money and seen side perks of the job removed under the guise of 'efficiencies' - that in turn has benefited this sector of business in increasing profits in the short term, but has left the driving force of our economy squeezed for disposal income harming prospects longer term. Business has survived so far because those middle class workers can get access to credit, thus allowing them to maintain a standard of living for a period - but signs are, this won't remain the case for much longer. Problem is - how many company execs would sanction moves to make less profit now in the thinking of making sustainable profit over a longer term? There main focus is on the now (understandably). We are in a horse / cart situation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 22 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: There quite clearly is a big structural problem, you have to question why some of our natives would rather sit on their arse than do some hard graft but I suppose that is something that comes with a developed, deindustrialised nation that believes everyone should have a white collar job where you sit in a nice office. You are probably right. As a consequence of everyone now going to Uni and being given a huge maintenance loan to live off (which they will never be able to pay back as it is tied in with their fees) there isn't the youth labour market to do the unskilled jobs. They just don't need to work because of the huge maintenance loans. The percentage of students in work is dropping steadily and fewer are taking up seasonal jobs outside of term time. A lot of these unskilled jobs that immigrants are taking were previously done by our youth, either as an alternative to further education or as part time/seasonal jobs by those in further education who needed money. Most of us at uni in my day, when loans were about £3,000 and fees about £1,000 per year worked, either part time during the year or full time over the summer or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40662737 RISE SIR VINCE, LEADER OF THE LIBERALS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzy Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 G'won Vince! One of the very few politicians I respect and believe. Funny how on the Pensions thread there's plenty talk of people being unemployable once they reach their 60's and ready for the scrap heap, then Vince gets the leadership at 74 years young to prove that's all bollux. Great stuff. Good luck to him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 8 hours ago, Foxin_mad said: Well you could argue that if the government didn't tax people on minimum wage at all they would have to pay less in in work benefits, also if the government stopped the flow of unskilled migration from Europe and elsewhere, this would not continue to drive down wages in low skilled jobs if there is a supply of low skilled workers form Romania and Poland etc. getting paid more to pick strawberries here that a skilled job back home it a no brainer for them! Obviously the recent increases in tax free allowance have helped workers to keep more but more needs to be done, I would possibly also target National Insurance payments or better still merge the payments into one to reduce the cost and complexity of collecting it. Also interestingly what is the point of collecting rent, council tax etc. on social housing, if a person is eligible to not pay rent and council tax, they should just not pay it instead of being given money to pay it with! What a bureaucratic mess and creation on non jobs that is!! The system basically is: We are going to pay someone to take money off you, we are then going to pay someone to give you the money back so that you can pay someone we pay for the things you need.....utterly bizarre!! Surely most have to admit that's far from ideal and it needs serious reform. We are in a process to fix that and it will take time, quite a long time. The first step is very low unemployment, natural factors as a result of this will then drive up wages. If there are no more staff, companies will have to pay more and invest more to keep the best staff if they don't they will lose them. For council houses the money is paid straight into the housing accounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Floyd Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 I'm sorry to say again it's Diane Abbott. https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/diane-abbott-fails-to-do-her-sums-again/ I think my favourite part is her use of the term 'police people'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 1 hour ago, The Floyd said: I'm sorry to say again it's Diane Abbott. https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/diane-abbott-fails-to-do-her-sums-again/ I think my favourite part is her use of the term 'police people'. Surely its time to dump her before another election is called? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 Tories use 'take out the trash' day to dump controversial reports https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/tories-use-take-out-the-trash-day-to-dump-controversial-reports?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 7 minutes ago, toddybad said: Surely its time to dump her before another election is called? Yeah, she is a huge distraction for would be labour voters and needs removing. I'd love to know more detail about the policy but we never get past her messing up the damn figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Floyd Posted 20 July 2017 Share Posted 20 July 2017 12 minutes ago, toddybad said: Surely its time to dump her before another election is called? I assume JC is only keeping her on as a reward for her loyalty, but yeah, I think she could do serious damage to any future Labour campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 21 July 2017 Share Posted 21 July 2017 8 hours ago, toddybad said: Surely its time to dump her before another election is called? No need, the more idiots they put forward the more popular they become. The Love Island generation are voting now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 21 July 2017 Share Posted 21 July 2017 8 hours ago, toddybad said: Tories use 'take out the trash' day to dump controversial reports https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/tories-use-take-out-the-trash-day-to-dump-controversial-reports?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard They normally use it to sneak in an unpopular policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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