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davieG

Acid attacks

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5 hours ago, Innovindil said:

The fact that's it starting from a ridiculously young age is the most worrying thing. My sister-in-law works a nursery, a boy decided to get angry over toys and punch another kid (not sure if it was a boy or girl, doesn't matter tbf) so she told him off, told him he wasn't supposed to do that because it was mean. Naturally kid starts crying, he tells his mommy what the "nasty" person said to him at finishing time, mum goes mad and starts yelling at my sister-in-law telling her she doesn't have the right to tell her kid off and he can do what he wants he's just a kid etc etc

 

Glad I don't work in that job, I'd be locked up before you could say "discipline" :nigel:

I wonder how many teachers have quit over the lack of support/respect/understanding and the constant scrutiny of every decision they make. I wouldn't say "no teachers no learning" because information is available across the board but teachers provide much of the context for learning and understanding of such things as consequences/personal and social responsibllity and so much more.      

 

There are similar problems to the police, several of whom have commented to me about the frustration of catching criminals only to be chasing after the same criminals for new crimes less than a year or two later because they've only served half their sentences or been given parole.

 

Others have referred to their opinion that if you took a small percentage of people out of any town or city permanently, the crime rate would dip considerably until the next group evolved.

 

I'm sure there's still some truth to that although organised crime seems to be burgeoning. For all the efforts towards containment there's no chance of that without a radical reappraisal of the criminal justice system. 

 

Seems to me that the "justice" element relates far more to the criminal rather than the victims where violent crimes against people and their property are concerned. And having listened to countless chapters of "mitigation" in a courtroom I can never believe how little checking of any defence claims is made and how much total bullshit is taken in by the bench with the consequence of a lesser sentence.

 

In defence of the justices they're under pressure not to send ever more people to already overcrowded "tinderbox" prisons (in our society that's supposedly not getting worse) and will willingly latch onto anything  that enables them to take a more merciful line. But that's not justice to the victim or the next victim or the police who've often gotta spend valuable time catching the same offenders again. 


Reference is constantly made to the society "we've created" but this isn't the society I've created. Or many, many others.

 

I don't go round robbing people or stabbing people or selling them drugs or pimping women. And I'm quite sure members of my family could say the same. Our society has been created by politicians and lawmakers to a great extent.

 

People who might be answerable at the ballot box to some extent but who never seem properly  answerable for the consequences of what they do or for all the misery they bring about with their misguided actions.    

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1 hour ago, Babylon said:

I don't know anyone who's not in teaching or law enforcement that doesn't say kids are getting far worse, there is a serious decline in respect and a huge upturn in "you can't touch me" attitude. Of course, a c**** a c**** and some will always be so no matter how hard they are punished. But I think it's naive to think it doesn't have an affect down the line.

 

It's not the only reason, but just another thing in a long line of reasons. From desensitisation, through film, tv, video games, internet. Glamorisation of gang culture in music and all those things listed before. Increase in drink and drug binging... you could list a load of stuff.

Is that even true though? Just seems to be the accepted wisdom despite evidence to the contrary.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/dec/15/smoking-drinking-young-people-lowest-level-on-record-england

 

I did a fair bit of underage park drinking as a kid and you just don't seem to see it anymore. I'm not going to deny that the punishments are less strict than they were for acts committed by kids and that some do have a "can't touch me" attitude (I know you have personal experience of this), but literally every generation thinks the one below it is less respectful than it was. That's always been the case throughout history.

 

In any case, this is an horrific one-off incident. If it was happening everywhere all the time then I'd be more inclined to agree with some of the points being raised. A single spree acid attack is not the sign of a society in terminal decline. Bad stuff has always been perpetrated by bad people.

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3 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

The knife vs acid argument is more than just readily available. It's about the logistics of doing the deed.

 

Wheeling up next to someone on your scoot and chucking acid at them is a lot less personal, lot less physical, a lot less risky in terms of a fight back and involves a lot less stomach to actually do.

 

Going and repeatedly plunging a knife in to someone, I would speculate, takes a lot more mental preparation. 

Both would require a bit of preparation.

 

You're a proper ****ing **** if you plan on chucking acid at someone. You know that it's going to ruin their life.

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Guest BlueBrett
2 minutes ago, Babylon said:

I don't know anyone who's not in teaching or law enforcement that doesn't say kids are getting far worse, there is a serious decline in respect and a huge upturn in "you can't touch me" attitude. Of course, a c**** a c**** and some will always be so no matter how hard they are punished. But I think it's naive to think it doesn't have an affect down the line.

 

It's not the only reason, but just another thing in a long line of reasons. From desensitisation, through film, tv, video games, internet. Glamorisation of gang culture in music and all those things listed before. Increase in drink and drug binging... you could list a load of stuff.

I'm not sure this is right. In my (admittedly limited) experience young people these days actually seem 'better' than they were ten years ago. When I was a teenager all any of us every did was get high and drink cider and there wasn't much that motivated us beyond our own hedonistic appetites. These days I've noticed teenagers are way more health conscious. The vast majority seem to go to the gym or do dancing, sports or art of some kind. They also seem to be far more engaged and socially conscious taken as a demographic as a whole. It's a bit like in that film with the fat one and channing tatum where they go back to school and the former jock still thinks it's cool to not give a shit but in fact the new social elite are all conscientious types. The ones I know also put me to shame in terms of the way they apply themselves and take their studies seriously.

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3 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Both would require a bit of preparation.

 

You're a proper ****ing **** if you plan on chucking acid at someone. You know that it's going to ruin their life.

 

Obviously but you probably don't have to face the reality of it so much if you're just belting acid at someone from a few away and then cheesing it.

 

I mean even in soldiering terms, I imagine it's a lot more traumatic getting up close and personal bayonetting an individual than shelling them with mortar fire from half a mile away.

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1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

And that's why the military are trained to use them but if you go back to Kitch's comment that I was responding to the point here isn't how easily Thracian can slice a man to death if given the opportunity.  You can start a new thread if that's what you want to talk about. :D 

 

 

Haha, if I carried a knife, I'd probably slip and cut my balls off at my age.  

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3 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Obviously but you probably don't have to face the reality of it so much if you're just belting acid at someone from a few away and then cheesing it.

 

I mean even in soldiering terms, I imagine it's a lot more traumatic getting up close and personal bayonetting an individual than shelling them with mortar fire from half a mile away.

I know what you mean.

 

I imagine that stabbing someone would be more of an act of rage whereas chucking acid at someone is something you'd have to plan for days if not weeks. Some people seem to chuck acid about almost without care, I agree about it not being a "personal" thing. Makes it even more dangerous.

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12 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Is that even true though? Just seems to be the accepted wisdom despite evidence to the contrary.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/dec/15/smoking-drinking-young-people-lowest-level-on-record-england

 

Only going from the say so of family in the police and friends who are teachers that drugs has escalated substantially.

 

12 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

but literally every generation thinks the one below it is less respectful than it was. That's always been the case throughout history.

Appreciate that, that's why I'm not taking personal opinion into it as I don't see it first hand. But as mentioned, it's friends and family who have been in the same industry for decades that have seen it and tried to deal with it first hand.

 

12 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

In any case, this is an horrific one-off incident. If it was happening everywhere all the time then I'd be more inclined to agree with some of the points being raised. A single spree acid attack is not the sign of a society in terminal decline. Bad stuff has always been perpetrated by bad people.

There was only another attack the other day, it's happening more and more often sadly. It might just have replaced an attack of another sort, but there is something about it I personally find more sickening than anything else. It's a premeditated attack to just ruin peoples lives.

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19 minutes ago, BlueBrett said:

I'm not sure this is right. In my (admittedly limited) experience young people these days actually seem 'better' than they were ten years ago. When I was a teenager all any of us every did was get high and drink cider and there wasn't much that motivated us beyond our own hedonistic appetites. These days I've noticed teenagers are way more health conscious. The vast majority seem to go to the gym or do dancing, sports or art of some kind. They also seem to be far more engaged and socially conscious taken as a demographic as a whole. It's a bit like in that film with the fat one and channing tatum where they go back to school and the former jock still thinks it's cool to not give a shit but in fact the new social elite are all conscientious types. The ones I know also put me to shame in terms of the way they apply themselves and take their studies seriously.

I probably didn't write that very well, I'm not trying to suggest all kids are shits and a whole generation is in meltdown.

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5 hours ago, Thracian said:

In some ways we've washed our hands of effectively dealing with clearly dangerous or criminally insane people who have so often been convicted of committing violent crimes which then get progressively worse.

 

There was an example in the Mercury this week of a guy who should clearly never have been on the streets to commit his latest crime when considering his antecedent history. 

 

Even his latest lengthy sentence will likely end up halved which means the guy may well have decades of opportunity to create still more and worse misery.  

 

Yet we neither deal with our own wackos with proper regard to the safety of others, but we wilfully import still more.

 

It's irresponsible  But that makes no difference and a good portion of the nation - whether due to vested interest or just being a misguided liberal - say  "carry on" no matter what the consequences and in the ironically blind belief they're doing good .

 

If "Health and Safety" had the last say on the serious risks posed by peoples actions and dangerously adverse influence, the free population would be decimated.  

I agree with others who say responsibility starts at home and through the formative years of education where standards should be set and problems identified early.

 

Trouble is, some leadership (radical idealism/power-seeking) and some influences (drugs, criminal associates, imparted sense of victimhood) serve only to steadily fan the flames of unbalance and insanity.

 

Just check out any seriously violent action and you will find the influences I've mentioned to have played a significant role. Yet we don't do nearly enough to negate these influences.                

 

Please tell me all mighty and all knowing Thracian ... what is a wacko and how do we not deal with them? Please give me your insight into how you would deal / treat a wacko? 

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9 minutes ago, casablancas said:

 

Please tell me all mighty and all knowing Thracian ... what is a wacko and how do we not deal with them? Please give me your insight into how you would deal / treat a wacko? 

You've got a dictionary on your machine the same as I have - no need for me to hold your hand.  

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1 hour ago, Countryfox said:

 

I remember taking the law into my own hands when some young lad was bullying another even younger lad...   the bully was about 10 or 11 I think ....     I tied him to a tree and left him there and he wasn't found till late that night ...    he'd been tied up for over 6 hours and was very upset to put it mildly.   I recall the police were involved and I feared serious repercussions.     I was given a right good telling off and felt pretty sorry for myself ...    ultimately however no charges were made against me.        Mind you I was only 9 at the time.

I know for a fact that implications was the reason why I didn't nick stuff, for instance. Like most kids, I suggest, the temptation of the shiny thing on the sweet counter or your favourite little toy could be overwhelming. For me, it was footy stickers. Panini stickers.

Why I didn't nick em was due to three things: an inner feeling that it was 'wrong' to do so (probably stemming from my family members, not only my parents), because I knew id be fookin embarrassed if I got caught and finally because my mum would have grounded me for weeks.

Implications....

Nowadays I suggest kids are so protected that these 'implications' are not as severe. I knew for a fact that my mum would never have been tried to protect me if I'd have been caught red handed with anything. Id have been humiliated by the whole family.

It worked. I ain't ever nicked anything.

Respect, moral values, values stemming from a healthy family environment, even your mates keeping you on the straight and narrow...all matter.

Nowadays it seems to be 'cool' to actively disrespect just about everything. 

I tell you something else as well, which about sums it up for me. The first time ANY kid at my senior school hit a teacher, there was absolute uproar. I can genuinely even remember after all these years, the teachers name. The kid was instantly expelled  (no chances, investigations, or other such bollox). The year must have been c.1981. 

These days, from what I hear, it's commonplace? If that's 'progress' it can go and fook itself.

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48 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

The knife vs acid argument is more than just readily available. It's about the logistics of doing the deed.

 

Wheeling up next to someone on your scoot and chucking acid at them is a lot less personal, lot less physical, a lot less risky in terms of a fight back and involves a lot less stomach to actually do.

 

Going and repeatedly plunging a knife in to someone, I would speculate, takes a lot more mental preparation. 

this is true, in gangs knife attacks are the most "respected" form of attack because of the sheer bollocks it takes to actually have to go up to someone, get within distance that they could damage yourself and then physically do the damage. things like gun shots (and presumably acid attacks even though they're less common) are seen as cowardly. 

 

to knife someone you have to put yourself at risk, to throw acid at someone as you drive past them even if it goes completely wrong compared to how you planned it isn't going to end with you in hospital. 

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My perception is that there is a large proportion of young people these days that achieve and have the opportunity to achieve certainly in the short term far more than I ever dreamed of, going to university never even came into my thoughts and I know of none of my peers who went to one.

 

But I also think that those that become a menace to society have a meaner streak in them and a seemingly penchant for pointless vandalism which was fairly negligible back in my youth

 

Of course there's also a larger population so % wise there's an increase in numbers plus there is significantly more attractive stuff to steal from people.

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1 minute ago, ScouseFox said:

this is true, in gangs knife attacks are the most "respected" form of attack because of the sheer bollocks it takes to actually have to go up to someone, get within distance that they could damage yourself and then physically do the damage. things like gun shots (and presumably acid attacks even though they're less common) are seen as cowardly. 

 

to knife someone you have to put yourself at risk, to throw acid at someone as you drive past them even if it goes completely wrong compared to how you planned it isn't going to end with you in hospital. 

And the fact that knife attacks can be 'respected', in any way shape or form tells you just about all you need to know.

I rest my case.

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Quote

 

Two teenagers have been arrested after acid was thrown in people's faces in five attacks over one night in London.

Two moped riders attacked people in a 90-minute spree in Islington, Stoke Newington and Hackney on Thursday, stealing mopeds in two of the attacks.

An eyewitness said he heard a victim, who he believed was a delivery driver, "screaming in pain". One victim suffered "life-changing injuries".

Police are looking at whether moped theft was the motive for the attacks.

Officers said they were linking the attacks and boys aged 15 and 16 have been arrested on suspicion of robbery and causing grievous bodily harm.

Delivery services Deliveroo and UberEATS have confirmed two of the victims were couriers working for the firms.

The attacks happened amid rising concern about the number of assaults involving corrosive substances in London.

 

Since 2010, there have been more than 1,800 reports of attacks involving corrosive fluids in the capital. Last year, it was used in 458 crimes, compared to 261 in 2015, according to Met Police figures


 

Obviously not been making headlines in the past.

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41 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

And the fact that knife attacks can be 'respected', in any way shape or form tells you just about all you need to know.

I rest my case.

Respected by people in the gangs, as such barbarism has ALWAYS been respected by people in gangs dating back throughout human history.

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5 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Good, that makes it fine and acceptable then. 

:thumbup:

 

Yeah, that's obviously what I'm saying isn't it? :rolleyes:

 

Your entire argument has been based on the supposed declining ethics and morals of modern youth. The point that horrific violence has always been respected by certain subcultures throughout history contradicts that, so probably not the best idea to "rest your case" on it.

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6 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Yeah, that's obviously what I'm saying isn't it? :rolleyes:

 

Your entire argument has been based on the supposed declining ethics and morals of modern youth. The point that horrific violence has always been respected by certain subcultures throughout history contradicts that, so probably not the best idea to "rest your case" on it.

As well as the fact that the idea of the "declining ethics and morals of modern youth" is as old as antiquity - Plato wrote about it, for goodness sake. It's rubbish then and it's rubbish now - people harking back to some mythical rose-tinted golden era where you could leave your door open, neighbours talked to one another and other such fallacious ideas.

 

The advancement of society to what it is today is the reason you likely don't die before 30 (either from war or disease) and your wife doesn't die in childbirth after having your tenth kid because most of the others died before she did. People take that for granted now.

 

Most of the past and the societies involved in it deserve our knowledge and thought but they sure as hell don't deserve our respect, apart from the scientific and social advancements they've made to get us to this point.

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5 hours ago, ajthefox said:

 

 

Oh fvck off making this about party politics you pair of nobs. I could quite as easily write a diatribe about how divisive right leaning politics breeds resentment and actions caused by resentment, but I'm not going to because that's not the fvcking point and that is not fact in any case.

 

Our current society is the result of constant development and is in a constant state of flux. It is the result of actions tracing back years and years, and that includes Labour governments, Tory governments, coalitions and hung parliaments. Our society is the result of people within it and the powers that be. This is not a world either of you have created but it is not a world I have created either. It is a world EVERYONE has created.

 

The blame for this lies with the sick individuals who did it, not the left. 

Agree with this, people who complain there is no discipline in schools, either have no kids or are poor parents. It's not the job of the school to punish children and make them understand consequences, that's the parents job. This isn't a liberal left problem but it is a toxic social problem. 

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4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Agree with this, people who complain there is no discipline in schools, either have no kids or are poor parents. It's not the job of the school to punish children and make them understand consequences, that's the parents job. This isn't a liberal left problem but it is a toxic social problem. 

Personally I've always thought it's both. What's the point in parents working with kids to understand consequences/discipline when there's none at school? And vice verca. Schools can have no control when parents let their kids run utter riot. Clear as day to me that one is. It's another issue in the myriad of issues here...there's no continuity.

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There's clearly less respect for the professionals from a large % of the population across all ages like the police, doctors, politicians even firemen and teachers. Nurses still seem to have a lot of respect.

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