The Great Universe Debate

[Kopfkino]

2 hours ago, Finnegan said:

Surely it's impossible for the universe to be both expanding and infinite. 

 

So the fact it's expanding means it isn't infinite. 

 

I can accept the theory that there are infinite universes, that's slightly different. 

I was typing out my explanation (to be corrected my mac) and realised this is just easier lol. The problem is the concept of the universe isn't intuitive for the brain and we try to normalise it.

http://www.worldsciencefestival.com/2011/11/ask_brian_green_what_is_the_universe_expanding_into/

 

 

1 hour ago, Crinklyfox said:

If we live in an infinite universe and my memory of basic maths is OK then it appears that the possibility of a single event occurring is zero, as any number divided by infinity is zero.

 

So if that holds nothing should ever occur - but it does.

 

 

A number divided by infinity isn't meaningful. If you limit it using normal numbers then it equals zero but actually 1/∞ ≠ 0.

[shen]

11 hours ago, pds said:

Ridiculous as it sounds I used to think about it a lot as a 7 or 8 year old. Was always asking my dad what was before the big bang. I couldn't (still can't) comprehend that there was nothing and then suddenly there was something. It used to really mess with my tiny mind and several times I cried myself to sleep at the thought of it all.

 

Now like you I just think of something else to take my mind off it as it really does my head in.

I had similar experiences and reactions as a child around that age too 

[Finnegan]

54 minutes ago, KingGTF said:

I was typing out my explanation (to be corrected my mac) and realised this is just easier lol. The problem is the concept of the universe isn't intuitive for the brain and we try to normalise it.

http://www.worldsciencefestival.com/2011/11/ask_brian_green_what_is_the_universe_expanding_into/

 

 

A number divided by infinity isn't meaningful. If you limit it using normal numbers then it equals zero but actually 1/∞ ≠ 0.

 

It's not about comprehension in our brains it's just about the literal meaning of the word infinite. 

 

If something is infinite it cannot either grow nor shrink, that's not me failing to get my head around things it's just simple semantics. 

 

[Great Boos Up]

21 hours ago, TiffToff88 said:

@leicsmac you're my new favourite person.

 

I do have one question on the multiverse theory... What's in the gaps between the many universes? there cant just be nothingness, but if there is something connecting the universes, would that not make them one big universe?

 

My head hurts.

Nothing, because there is no time.

Imagine 10 seconds before the big bang and 10 billion trillion years before the big bang are the same point in space time.

Although there was no time. You need energy or mass to create time. So the universe is expanding from the initial energy from the big bang. Out side of that there is no energy, matter or time.

You have stated a theory though. What happens when two universes expand and touch as the laws of physics would not be the same in any two.

Another big bang?

[fuchsntf]

23 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Aha! My kind of topic.

 

Right...

 

The Universe is finite - that much we know, both in terms of what we can observe (up to around 46 billion lightyears away) and in terms of what we can't (everything beyond that up to a limit of anywhere between 150-550 billion lightyears). That being said, there are some schools of thought that suggest it is infinite - but the theory that it is finite tends to hold a lot more water these days. 

 

There likely won't be an event within this Universe that will cause it to spontaneously collapse - the energy that we can't observe yet (but we know has to be there) that drives gravitational expansion is much too strong for that. The most likely outcome is simply continual expansion and eventual heat death.

 

It is perfectly possible, however, that when the Big Bang expansion event happened (I really dislike that term) that other universes were "created" (again I use that term loosely) by the chance event that caused the initial expansion of ours. That's what the multiverse theory is based on, really.

 

Regarding "before" the Big Bang event - it's really something of an moot point, as time is just something used to measure another dimension within this universe...and before that event there were no dimensions. 

 

 

You should give it a go - it's actually a pretty decent read.

 

That being said, there aren't that many books out there that explain these matters in a good way - A Short History of Nearly Everything by Bill Bryson does well, but the nature of the Universe isn't the only thing that book covers.

 

 

Yep. You've just pretty much nailed down the basis of the multi-universe theory - that there are so many chances to "make" a Universe, that it is indeed happening all the time because the right chance conditions for it are happening more often (if there is such a thing) that folks might think. Of course, we cannot observe to prove this at all.

 

Again though, outside our universe to think of "space" is moot because that is merely a term used to describe dimensions within our own universe...it's a decent way to explain it, though.

 

 

I've been hooked since I was very little. Did two degrees on it, still love it now.

 

Some people find the idea of all that space out there intimidating. I find it comforting.

 

 

The odds as stipulated in the Drake Equation (and how it has been modified over the years since it was thought of ) would bear this out. 100 billion planets in our galaxy alone (and that's a lowball estimate, given that Kepler seems to suggest now that 60-95% of all stars in our galaxy have planetary systems with them), and at least 200 billion galaxies in the observable Universe alone...that's an awful lot of planets out there.

 

However, where the Drake Equation falls down is having only one frame of reference for conditions necessary to support life - Earth. We simply aren't sure of what exactly it took to generate life here...so we can't be sure of what it would take elsewhere, either. Should we find simple life on either Europa or Enceladus in the future (and I sincerely hope that we do) that would greatly boost the odds of at least simple life existing elsewhere. One more reason to get out there!

 

 

Yeah, it's such a shame that we seem to be so caught up in our petty differences here on Earth that we don't seem to focus adequately on getting out into space. With the right will it could be done, and quite frankly sooner or later it's going to need to be done, because Earth isn't going to remain this habitable forever, either through human action or through simple natural changes (bear in mind that all of recorded human history has happened during a temperate flyspeck of time in geological terms).

 

And yes, how gravity affects time is something of a mindscrew - and Interstellar did better than most Hollywood movies in depicting it correctly. Still one of my favourite movies. It's definitely something to consider should humans ever venture out into areas where relativistic effects come into play - either going near them or making a ship that goes so fast that comes into account.

 

 

Yup - any one of these reasons might be right, or a combination of them all, or none of them.

 

The only way we're going to know for sure is to get out there, to find out as much as we can, and see what we find.

 

Also, I really enjoy talking about this and its sort of my area of expertise, so if folks have any questions at all on the topic please ask if you wish.

Loved the read...

until my Ilness, on layman terms It is/was the subject, I followed, read on and looked for. Also with the thought of Spiritual self, and our "at any moment" the strength and Weaknesses of accepting or not accepting the conscious  idea of limits expansion on "Finity" with infinity not yet a concept, that many peoples cant accept, where some will .

 

Unfortunatly I no longer have  the mental strength, to carrying on expanding rigorously  my experience and knowledge.One reason I began to travel with Anthropology a bbone of the Backpack of thought.

Trying to discover the varieties and strengths of all  peoples beliefs away from the religous Constraints  and questions, ln this direction an approach to life past, present and future.

Also discovering, other peoples take on dimensions and cross-dimensional lives, using

Own space on the planet aswell as univeral space...

The biggest education and discovery...life is too short, even when has mundane periods in ones life.

 

[leicsmac]

4 hours ago, KingGTF said:

I was typing out my explanation (to be corrected my mac) and realised this is just easier lol. The problem is the concept of the universe isn't intuitive for the brain and we try to normalise it.

http://www.worldsciencefestival.com/2011/11/ask_brian_green_what_is_the_universe_expanding_into/

 

 

Good article.

 

As was mentioned earlier, the visible Universe most certainly is not infinite - there's a pretty clear distance that we can see up to, limited both by the speed of light and the speed of expansion - anything that is now going fast enough away from us to pass the "light horizon" cannot be seen (eventually pretty much everything beyond our own galaxy will have this happen). Of course, we can see more distant objects before they passed the light horizon because the light that showed them has taken so long to get here.

 

To be honest, looking at distant objects and realising that how far away they are has no bearing on the time the light showing them has taken to reach us makes you really realise just how interchangeable space and time are at that kind of distance and velocity - though time is pretty much fixed and immutable here on Earth, it gets a lot weirder the further out you go and the faster you're going.

[Great Boos Up]

I always like the "train travelling at nearly the speed of light" idea. (if it were possible) If you ran down the middle of the train to try and beat the speed of light you couldn't because time would slow down to stop you.

[Sampson]

5 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

It's not about comprehension in our brains it's just about the literal meaning of the word infinite. 

 

If something is infinite it cannot either grow nor shrink, that's not me failing to get my head around things it's just simple semantics. 

 

Tbf infinity is a pretty incomprehensible subject for human brains to understand in itself but mathmatically you can actually add to infinity or increase its size.

 

There are infinite numbers between 0 and 1 but you can still go above 1 to an infinite number of times - but there are still just as many numbers between 0-1 and 0-10 (an infinite number in both).

 

Similarly there are an infinite number of even numbers but you can still add odd numbers in between them and stretch the sequence of numbers out - but there is not twice as many whole numbers as even numbers - there's an equal number of both (infinity).

 

There's a famous thought experiment called Hilbert's Paradox about a hotel with an infinite number of rooms each of which is occupied - however new guests have no room because each room is occupied but new guests arrive - if this hotel is infinite then to allow for new guests you just move guest in room 1 to room 2, guest in room 2 to room 3 etc. infinitely along the line and room 1 is now free for the new guests.

Edited 19 October 2017 by Sampson

[Captain...]

 

Me reading this thread

[Strokes]

30 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Tbf infinity is a pretty incomprehensible subject for human brains to understand in itself but mathmatically you can actually add to infinity or increase its size.

 

There are infinite numbers between 0 and 1 but you can still go above 1 to an infinite number of times - but there are still just as many numbers between 0-1 and 0-10 (an infinite number in both).

 

Similarly there are an infinite number of even numbers but you can still add odd numbers in between them and stretch the sequence of numbers out - but there is not twice as many whole numbers as even numbers - there's an equal number of both (infinity).

 

There's a famous thought experiment called Hilbert's Paradox about a hotel with an infinite number of rooms each of which is occupied - however new guests have no room because each room is occupied but new guests arrive - if this hotel is infinite then to allow for new guests you just move guest in room 1 to room 2, guest in room 2 to room 3 etc. infinitely along the line and room 1 is now free for the new guests.

It'd be a bit of a ballache stopping at that hotel and having to move rooms all the time. Someone needs to have a word at reception if you ask me.

[Countryfox]

11 minutes ago, Strokes said:

It'd be a bit of a ballache stopping at that hotel and having to move rooms all the time. Someone needs to have a word at reception if you ask me.

 

Sounds a very weird place to me ...   wonder what the girl on reception looks like ..  

[Izzy]

Me reading this thread..

 

[Countryfox]

Just now, Izzy Muzzett said:

Me reading this thread..

 

What you doing tonight Muzzett ? ...  fancy meeting up for a drink ? ...  

[Carl the Llama]

5 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

It's not about comprehension in our brains it's just about the literal meaning of the word infinite. 

 

If something is infinite it cannot either grow nor shrink, that's not me failing to get my head around things it's just simple semantics. 

 

Sampson is bang on, you can have varying levels of infinite.  If the universe is expanding and is infinite then all that means is it's going from a pool of space the size of infinity cubic metres to a pool of space the size of infinity+1 cubic metres then infinity+2 cubic metres and so on.

[Countryfox]

Just now, Carl the Llama said:

Sampson is bang on, you can have varying levels of infinite.  If the universe is expanding and is infinite then all that means is it's going from a pool of space the size of infinity cubic metres to a pool of space the size of infinity+1 cubic metres then infinity+2 cubic metres and so on.

 

I'm 135% sure that you are right ..   

[Countryfox]

Just look at those quick fire responses ...   you don't get to be a Member+ for nothing you know ...   

[fuchsntf]

13 minutes ago, Strokes said:

It'd be a bit of a ballache stopping at that hotel and having to move rooms all the time. Someone needs to have a word at reception if you ask me.

Just think...How long would you have to fking   wait for breakfast...Egg n bacon, or infinitity and bacon Sir.

Will the toast pop up, or find itself inifintily in mid-air   

 

 

t

 

[fuchsntf]

8 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

 

Sounds a very weird place to me ...   wonder what the girl on reception looks like ..  

Double-shifts with infinite overtime...

[Izzy]

6 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

What you doing tonight Muzzett ? ...  fancy meeting up for a drink ? ...  

 

You bring the domino's and cards, I'll bring the darts and crib board.

 

 

[Great Boos Up]

The matter and energy within the expanding remain the same, just transferred to other forms and pulled about by force.

Is there any decay?

If so the then expansion would slow?

[Carl the Llama]

1 minute ago, fuchsntf said:

Just think...How long would you have to fking   wait for breakfast...Egg n bacon, or infinitity and bacon Sir.

Will the toast pop up, or find itself inifintily in mid-air   

Mobius bacon strips.served with an infinite pool of coffee, potato tesseracts and 2 slices of toast.

[Dan LCFC]

THE EARTH IS FLAT!

[fuchsntf]

6 hours ago, KingGTF said:

I was typing out my explanation (to be corrected my mac) and realised this is just easier lol. The problem is the concept of the universe isn't intuitive for the brain and we try to normalise it.

http://www.worldsciencefestival.com/2011/11/ask_brian_green_what_is_the_universe_expanding_into/

 

 

A number divided by infinity isn't meaningful. If you limit it using normal numbers then it equals zero but actually 1/∞ ≠ 0.

I blame CS for not using this formular from the beginning.Our midfield would be so strong

Then Rudkin , and FIFA havent understood the Fax was lost in space

[Countryfox]

3 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

 

You bring the domino's and cards, I'll bring the darts and crib board.

 

 

 

Cards eh ...  strip poker you little vixen ? ...    love how you've done your hair by the way .....      never had you down as such a stunner ...   

[AKCJ]

1 hour ago, Great Boos Up said:

I always like the "train travelling at nearly the speed of light" idea. (if it were possible) If you ran down the middle of the train to try and beat the speed of light you couldn't because time would slow down to stop you.