The Tactics Thread

[Vardinio'sCat 1,820]

Brendan's changed this season, he's become a pragmatist when the occasion demands it, and you can see that the players are buying in.

 

If BR has listened to the players, or if he has worked it out himself, it is a sign of maturity, imho.

[LCCFox96 945]

Someone should probably tag Arteta in this thread. 

 

Is there a 'What happens if I knew they were going to do it, but we still didn't score' section in the FAQ?

[HighPeakFox 10,502]

3 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

We were really passive and started with a 3411, Barnes up top and Maddison behind him, in a replica of the tactics we tried against Man City.

Is that what's known as the Perez formation?

Edited 26 October 2020 by HighPeakFox

[Dan LCFC 11,700]

My perception earlier was a 3-5-1-1, pack the midfield and hope to suffocate the game as much as possible, hoping that we could get to the hour mark goalless so that we could get Vardy on to possibly nick it. Well it's exactly what happened. We were quite fortunate in a couple of ways - the injury to David Luiz who was Arsenal's most creative player (we truly are at this point in time) and the general wastefulness of Lacazette, who I really think is nowhere near good enough for a team like Arsenal, were big reasons we got to the hour mark goalless, though our general organisation bar a couple of slips was pretty good. Fofana the pick of our defence again.

 

It became there for the taking once Vardy came on though and we got it. The weirdest part about that game was I was so reassured we'd hold on despite it being at a ground we historically crumble at. I felt under so little threat. Genuinely felt like something like late 2015/16.

 

I'd been bemoaning our inability to win scrappy just this week, that we hadn't pinched a game in far too long and what do you know, we go and do it the next game. Our first win by a solitary goal in 2020.

Edited 26 October 2020 by Dan LCFC

[StriderHiryu 16,960]

1 hour ago, HighPeakFox said:

Is that what's known as the Perez formation?

 

Well it does often feel like we are a man short when he’s in the lineup sad to say! Praet started in his place and Under came on today, with Perez not even in the squad which speaks volumes. 
 

Usually I point out Perez’s contribution to the forward press but it must be said that today Under didn’t just get a great assist, he also looked much sharper closing down and was much better in terms of positioning. My feeling is he’s now match fit but needs to learn positioning within our system, but it seems like he’s making rapid progress here too. 
 

It will be interesting to see how Perez responds. Last season Nacho didn’t even make the squad for the first 6 games but then played his way back in. Praet has done something similar. Can Perez?

[Collymore 3,697]

5 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

 

Well it does often feel like we are a man short when he’s in the lineup sad to say! Praet started in his place and Under came on today, with Perez not even in the squad which speaks volumes. 
 

Usually I point out Perez’s contribution to the forward press but it must be said that today Under didn’t just get a great assist, he also looked much sharper closing down and was much better in terms of positioning. My feeling is he’s now match fit but needs to learn positioning within our system, but it seems like he’s making rapid progress here too. 
 

It will be interesting to see how Perez responds. Last season Nacho didn’t even make the squad for the first 6 games but then played his way back in. Praet has done something similar. Can Perez?

The forward press is strange one as a player might look like they're being ineffective but it might not be the case and it could be someone else out of TV shot that's the problem. This is one of the biggest problems of not being able to attend the game as you don't see the whole picture on TV.

 

if one of the 5 players or so involved times it wrong or misses their press the whole thing falls a part and makes everyone else look silly. If we take Perez for example, it might look like he's sometimes not pressing right, but his job might be to semi-press so the ball is worked into another area (or into a trap so to speak)

 

The difference between a truly world-class player and your average headless chicken is that they're so aware of what's around them, they can make changes to the press in real-time to accommodate weakness or strength in that one moment. 

 

Take Vardy for example, 5 years a go he'd chase everything and press everyone no matter the situation, and to be fair, he was so good at it it was actually a benefit to the team - problem was he was so tired towards the end of the game he'd have probably been retired by now if he'd carried on that way.

 

Now you see him scanning around him like a radar all of the time and turning down some presses and then turning the after burners on at other moments. This is one reason why BR speaks so highly of his football intelligence. 

 

 

 

 

[NewEnglandFox 1,120]

 

[st albans fox 8,300]

On 25/10/2020 at 23:27, Vardinio'sCat said:

Brendan's changed this season, he's become a pragmatist when the occasion demands it, and you can see that the players are buying in.

 

If BR has listened to the players, or if he has worked it out himself, it is a sign of maturity, imho.

I expect that in the post mortem of how we failed to make CL last season, it was pointed out to him how we failed to pick up a point against the top three and didn’t win at any of the usual other three  (picked up 2 draws). The results against those who you are competing with are doubly important come the end of the season.  He has to take his share of the responsibility for us finishing outside the top 4 from the position we were in just before Xmas

.....

 

but I do wonder if we had a fully fit squad, would he have been so deep at Man City ? I certainly don’t think he would at the Emirates 

Edited 28 October 2020 by st albans fox

[Strokes 10,076]

On 25/10/2020 at 23:27, Vardinio'sCat said:

Brendan's changed this season, he's become a pragmatist when the occasion demands it, and you can see that the players are buying in.

 

If BR has listened to the players, or if he has worked it out himself, it is a sign of maturity, imho.

Completely busts the myth that he is stubborn and has no plan B.

[HighPeakFox 10,502]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

Completely busts the myth that he is stubborn and has no plan B.

On which subject, I wonder what's happened to those people who only pop up to go on about his small-man syndrome.

[Strokes 10,076]

3 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

On which subject, I wonder what's happened to those people who only pop up to go on about his small-man syndrome.

I’d like to think they’ve gone away to eat down on some humble pie, but I’ve been a member of this forum for 15 years and know better than that

 

[Cardiff_Fox 6,061]

Big benefit of playing the five with those traditional full backs in the wide centre back spots is that they can step forward with the ball. They have an extra yard pace to physically beat the press. 
 

Second half; game changed with Maddison as Leeds couldn’t be as high. At first this gave the space for Maddison to come off the wing. Then they dropped which allowed Fuchs and Justin to step forward 

[StanSP 26,339]

1 minute ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Big benefit of playing the five with those traditional full backs in the wide centre back spots is that they can step forward with the ball. They have an extra yard pace to physically beat the press. 
 

Second half; game changed with Maddison as Leeds couldn’t be as high. At first this gave the space for Maddison to come off the wing. Then they dropped which allowed Fuchs and Justin to step forward 

Fofana is perfect with this style. Same with Soyuncu.

[Cardiff_Fox 6,061]

3 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Fofana is perfect with this style. Same with Soyuncu.

It’s the evolving of the centre back. Either that or perfecting the switch 

[StriderHiryu 16,960]

Leeds play 4141 which transitions to 3133 when attacking. We played our system for a few reasons:

 

- Harvey Barnes man marked Klich during the transition making it harder for him to set the tempo as their deep lying playmaker. Leeds did a bit better in the second half at avoiding this by play it a bit faster into and out of him. This meant Leeds had to push up even more than they already do, leaving oceans of space in behind.

- Playing 3 at the back means we should be able to have one man each at all times on their front 3.

- Playing wingbacks means Leeds can't overload us with 2v1's on either flank. This is why if the opposition play the 3133, 5 at the back is a good way to play against them.

- Having extra numbers back in the areas Leeds are dangerous in meant we could take the occasional chance trying to beat a man going forwards. Often times a bit of skill took one or two Leeds players completely out of the game.

 

Why haven't we played our own 4141 as much this season? It's because if we play that way we have to ensure that we press the game harder and cover more ground than the opposition. We know we can do this, but when we have two games a week and many players are injured, it's simply not sustainable and could result in even more injuries. I hope we do see that system used more often at home, as it was a mistake to play 5 at the back against West Ham, but away from home against teams that will come at you we've seen how good 352 / 532 is.

[egg_fried_rice 1,197]

interesting sort of half block from us this evening. no where near as deep as man city or arsenal. set traps all over the shop and utilised the spaces like a charm. really enjoying the adaptability we've shown so far this season. it will be interesting to see how and when we try to impose our style (4141 mentioned above) when we have our full squad available.

[StriderHiryu 16,960]

6 minutes ago, egg_fried_rice said:

interesting sort of half block from us this evening. no where near as deep as man city or arsenal. set traps all over the shop and utilised the spaces like a charm. really enjoying the adaptability we've shown so far this season. it will be interesting to see how and when we try to impose our style (4141 mentioned above) when we have our full squad available.

Yes! Very shrewd observation. If you look at the way we setup, we allowed certain passing lanes and channels to be open so that if we won the ball back we opened Leeds right up.

[danhaw 60]

The system we've been playing has been superb (most of the time). 5-4-1 when we need to defend/let the opposition have the ball. 3-2-3-2 when we attack. It works so well. A massive shout to to Fuchs as well. He's been brilliant when he's been called upon 

[Hales 897]

There is a change in the team this year. Brendan believes and the players believe in him. Its going to be a brilliant season, I just know it!

[egg_fried_rice 1,197]

2 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Yes! Very shrewd observation. If you look at the way we setup, we allowed certain passing lanes and channels to be open so that if we won the ball back we opened Leeds right up.

I have to say, i was a little surprised at the lack of Leeds adaptability. They only really had one way to play. Brendan sussed it and we set up accordingly reaping early success, so I expected Bielsa to respond. He made a sub putting on an attacker for a more defensive midfielder, but it didn't really change their approach much, just where the players were on the field. Bielsa 0 - 1 Brendan (or should that be 1 - 4? )

[zealot 148]

On 18/12/2019 at 08:57, Nicolo Barella said:

Ndidi is so important to us. No other midfielder in the PL could do what he does for us

Apart from Mendy!!! Has been awesome this season...

[StanSP 26,339]

16 minutes ago, egg_fried_rice said:

interesting sort of half block from us this evening. no where near as deep as man city or arsenal. set traps all over the shop and utilised the spaces like a charm. really enjoying the adaptability we've shown so far this season. it will be interesting to see how and when we try to impose our style (4141 mentioned above) when we have our full squad available.

 

8 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Yes! Very shrewd observation. If you look at the way we setup, we allowed certain passing lanes and channels to be open so that if we won the ball back we opened Leeds right up.

I think first half we read the game very well. Got in the right positions and the amount of times Leeds gave the ball up we perhaps could have capitalised even more.

 

Tonight felt like a masterclass (!!) in having a defensive mindset but still putting the opposition under pressure at the right time. Perhaps the amount of effort we put in in the first half affected us 2nd half but having said that, Leeds changed shape & personnel which was also a factor. It's probably why Barnes became ineffective but then again, that's why you have to have a good bench to react to those changes and make your own positive ones. Leeds did start the 2nd half off very positively but it was up to us to claw back that initiative and exploit the spaces they would leave as they charged forward in numbers. Maddison & Under were the perfect players to do that.

[Fktf 614]

A subtle masterclass tonight, no? Justin driving forwards from outside cb, because praet didn't really play inside right, Fuchs pulling wide to deliver the direct ball because barnes and vardy were looking for it in the channel down that side, mendy appearing on the wing as tielemanns stayed home because he had the legs to do it, the introduction of maddison when it was clear Leeds were trying to overload us on the outside.

 

Everything designed to exploit the spaces Leeds left with the armoury we had. I'm not sure how easy it will be for other teams to copy it as a  blueprint for Leeds, because it was so based on our players 

[StriderHiryu 16,960]

35 minutes ago, egg_fried_rice said:

I have to say, i was a little surprised at the lack of Leeds adaptability. They only really had one way to play. Brendan sussed it and we set up accordingly reaping early success, so I expected Bielsa to respond. He made a sub putting on an attacker for a more defensive midfielder, but it didn't really change their approach much, just where the players were on the field. Bielsa 0 - 1 Brendan (or should that be 1 - 4? )

That for me is the difference between Rodgers and Guardiola / Arteta / Bielsa, and the reason why we sit second and they don't.

 

From a coaching perspective I 100% understand why you want to drill a style of play into your team and have them able to execute that system to 100% of it's potential. In Bielsa's case he even refers to the fact that in his system it at times becomes other systems anyway depending on the phase of play and situation. It means your team can dictate the game and proactively force the issue in any given game. But if you are figured out you are in trouble and teams will have seen this match and will replicate the style against Leeds as a result. Last season we were guilty of not changing our tactics against teams like Man City and Liverpool and got destroyed, but this season I feel like we can get points from anyone.

 

One thing I will say in Leeds' defence though is that they didn't have many options to change the game even if they wanted to. Perhaps they could have started the game to counter attack to match our setup, but that wouldn't have worked because I bet Rodgers would 100% have taken a draw prior to kick off if it was on offer. Going direct is not an option in the Premier League any more, Burnley and Sheffield United probably do it the most out of any teams, and look where they are in the league. So they can only really change personnel to change the game. Perhaps if they had Rodrigo in their squad they could have sacrificed a defender for another attacker, but IMO that would have been suicidal against this Leicester team. 

 

For us we now have multiple ways to play:

- 4141 high pressing style. Continental style passing with German / English style pressing to dominate the game and attack. Best suited for playing at home. My personal favorite system of the ones we play.

- 442 Diamond. Make the pitch narrow to force play down the middle. Good against teams that have a big emphasis on central play or games when we are happy for the game to be like a basketball game with many chances on either side.

- 541 super defensive block. Brilliant for away games against big teams. If we progress into the knockout stages in Europe, being able to play this way could win us the entire thing because we won't get destroyed away from home.

- 532 counter attack. A great way to play against 433 / 3133. Teams that have 3 forwards and full backs that push up have a tough time against this.

[StanSP 26,339]

@StriderHiryu forced me to post this here

 

It's genuinely really good. Long-ish thread but brief comments about so many aspects of our play. Good read.

 

 

 

 

I especially like the praise Justin & Thomas get.