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2 hours ago, MattP said:

Only if there is some serious evidence for it, no one ever accuses Wes Morgan or Hamza Choudary of laziness, no one ever accused N'Golo Kante of it.

 

When I grew up in the 90's it seemed to be the other way around, Philpott and Oldfield were considered our lazy players and Mark Blake was a fans favourite and workhorse in midfield. 

 

Demarai Gray will look lazy when compared to Mark Albrighton, Kelechi Iheanacho will look lazy compared to Jamie Vardy. 

 

Maybe it's just a case of that at this point in time we have a couple of very lazy black players in the squad.

You can't call a black person lazy are you mad?!

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17 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

Everyone being treated equally is the exact point of the group. X 

Hi RumbleFox as an openly Gay poster but more importantly an LCFC fan on this forum, may I ask, have you ever suffered major discrimination at our ground or others?  x

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41 minutes ago, Bluetintedspecs said:

Hi RumbleFox as an openly Gay poster but more importantly an LCFC fan on this forum, may I ask, have you ever suffered major discrimination at our ground or others?  x

Hi there.  I am not sure I understand?  I am behind this panel, I think it is a good idea.  In terms of discrimination, I am not gay?  X

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1 hour ago, oadby.fox said:

I get this but I think it's off the mark to assume that fans are being racist because they, for instance, describe Iheanacho as putting in lazy performances.

 

Regarding casual racism/stereotypes, in my experience it has usually been the case that black players are often praised for being "fast, physical, strong" etc but never for having "great vision" or "football intelligence" etc. Some people might not see this, as in both cases they are positive attributes but it's something I've noticed commentators do since I was a kid. Despite this, I wouldn't say that it was wrong to call a black player fast or strong just because there is this historical stereotype. Sometimes it just is objectively true that a player is quick and sometimes it is just objectively true that a player is lazy or puts in a lazy performance. Whether someone thinks that a player is quick or lazy because of their ethnicity is a different question.

 

In Kelechi's case it's honestly hard to say that he is only receiving this kind of criticism regarding his performances because he is black. I don't think his ethnicity has anything to do with it (but maybe that's just because I surround myself with others who don't make racist comments). People say he is lazy because he doesn't put a shift in on the pitch and the stats would probably bear that out. You don't hear that about Ndidi, Mendy, Ricardo, Morgan, Kante etc and there's a good reason why. The only way for us to really know what difference Nacho's ethnicity makes with regards to the perception of him being lazy is if we had a white player who performed identically to him. That is impossible of course but I remember that Bendtner used to get a lot of flack at Arsenal for being both ineffective and lazy (Ozil likewise), people often viewed Berbatov as being a bit lazy too but he always scored and so his perceived lack of effort was always forgiven.

 

In my opinion, the worst way to move forwards on issues like these are to try and clamp down on any criticism of BAME players because of the potential for such criticism to coincide with any historical prejudices. Given that we are all beings of equal moral worth, we should all be equally prone to praise and blame, and to take that away from BAME players is actually to privilege white players over them. It produces a narrative that "only white players can handle criticism", and it simultaneously sets up BAME players as perpetual victims irrespective of whether that criticism is coming from a place of genuine critique or one of bigotry. 

Good post.

 

For the record I wrote two lines commenting that people should consider how they use the term ‘lazy’ when commenting upon black players.

 

I wrote this because it’s in my opinion overly used and applied to certain demographics more liberally than others. It wasn’t really anything in reference to the LCFC panel - just something I’ve noticed for years.

 

I didn’t mention any individual players, LCFC or mention any posters. And look ? look at the level of protest.

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

Hi there.  I am not sure I understand?  I am behind this panel, I think it is a good idea.  In terms of discrimination, I am not gay?  X

You've deffo said you are before, but presumably in jest. Well, obviously in jest if you're not. Unless you forget from day to day. Which is unlikely.

 

How sad are you that Iborra has gone? 

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6 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

Hi there.  I am not sure I understand?  I am behind this panel, I think it is a good idea.  In terms of discrimination, I am not gay?  X

I must be going senile mate I thought I'd read a post from you stating that you were some time ago! Time for me to get the yellow post it notes out and place them around to help myself lol x

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1 minute ago, turtmcfly said:

You've deffo said you are before, but presumably in jest. Well, obviously in jest if you're not. Unless you forget from day to day. Which is unlikely.

 

How sad are you that Iborra has gone? 

I said it once because someone was being a homophobe and it shut him up but my very next post stated I was not.  I was trying to make him question his actions but I apologise if anyone took it seriously.  

 

Gutted about Iborra, I may not be gay but I can appreciate the male form and he is a beaut.  X

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1 hour ago, oadby.fox said:

Regarding casual racism/stereotypes, in my experience it has usually been the case that black players are often praised for being "fast, physical, strong" etc but never for having "great vision" or "football intelligence" etc.

Now this I actually do agree with, but is there an element of truth in it and that's why they are used? You only have to watch a few days of track and field to realise that there is probably something genetic that makes people who are black and from the Caribbean prone to being a bit faster than your average Russian. Michael Johnson did a documentary on this showing it can be traced back to the strongest from the old slave ships.

A lot of also reflects on historical football styles, Pepe Guardiola has had criticism that he "doesn't like Africans" - but if you think about it logically the football he plays with his teams is a very latin influenced, short sharp passing game with a lot of smal players on the pitch - so it's entirely logical that he is going to have more Spanish and South American players in the team than Africans where the game does seem to be based on a more physical aspect - he also won't have many Scandinavians in his team for the same reason.

Harry Maguire is as much of a stereotype as anyone, a produce of the never say die, big slabhead English centre half.

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Just now, Bluetintedspecs said:

I must be going senile mate I thought I'd read a post from you stating that you were some time ago! Time for me to get the yellow post it notes out and place them around to help myself lol x

Haha, no I did say it once because another poster was being slightly homophobic and I wanted him to think about what he was saying.  Haha don't worry, my memory gets worse every day.  I am a shoo-in for dementia.  X

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28 minutes ago, turtmcfly said:

You've deffo said you are before, but presumably in jest. Well, obviously in jest if you're not. Unless you forget from day to day. Which is unlikely.

 

How sad are you that Iborra has gone? 

 

26 minutes ago, Bluetintedspecs said:

I must be going senile mate I thought I'd read a post from you stating that you were some time ago! Time for me to get the yellow post it notes out and place them around to help myself lol x

 

25 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

I said it once because someone was being a homophobe and it shut him up but my very next post stated I was not.  I was trying to make him question his actions but I apologise if anyone took it seriously.  

 

Gutted about Iborra, I may not be gay but I can appreciate the male form and he is a beaut.  X

 

Less closet door more revolving door ....    :)

 

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1 hour ago, Bluetintedspecs said:

Any labelling generalisation is plain ignorant Sheff and I'm with you on that. I also think being fearful of expressing an honest ability based opinion because of said persons colour, age , religion or sexuality is also very wrong. Yes I'm white,Christian straight old git but if someone thought I was a lazy old git I would take there opinion based on me not working hard as opposed to the other factors. So why if that person is black, Asian,  Gay, Lesbian , Muslim, Sikh or Buddhist etc etc should an honest opinion (as long as it is not deliberately and overtly offensive) be generally labelled as racist, homophobic etc?

 

I think we are in agreement about the same thing! Nothing wrong with with an opinion on someone due to an actual fact

 

 

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2 hours ago, Bluetintedspecs said:

Hi RumbleFox as an openly Gay poster but more importantly an LCFC fan on this forum, may I ask, have you ever suffered major discrimination at our ground or others?  x

Weighing in as I fit the criteria and Rumble has deceived us all ;)

 

Never experienced any direct homophobic abuse, personally. Then again, looking at me/my mannerisms you probably wouldn't assume I'm gay without knowing me, so I guess that sort of homophobia doesn't get aimed at me any more than it would any other fan.

 

I have heard negative, homophobic comments said in general (calling something gay, or calling their mate a f*g) usually by the younger crowd, but it's never seemed vitriolic or an attack on any particular individual. Occasionally a bit of grumbling when its the rainbow laces campaign or similar. Just my personal experiences, mind, so it may be more of a problem in different areas of the ground or for other people. Maybe I'm just blissfully ignorant.

 

I've taken my (reluctant) partner with me to a few cup games and again, no abuse, although I'm not sure I'd be all that comfortable holding his hand or any other light PDA in/around the ground. That extends beyond football though and is the case for a lot of LGBT people in all sorts of public spaces.

 

 

 

... x

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1 hour ago, MattP said:

Now this I actually do agree with, but is there an element of truth in it and that's why they are used? You only have to watch a few days of track and field to realise that there is probably something genetic that makes people who are black and from the Caribbean prone to being a bit faster than your average Russian. Michael Johnson did a documentary on this showing it can be traced back to the strongest from the old slave ships.

A lot of also reflects on historical football styles, Pepe Guardiola has had criticism that he "doesn't like Africans" - but if you think about it logically the football he plays with his teams is a very latin influenced, short sharp passing game with a lot of smal players on the pitch - so it's entirely logical that he is going to have more Spanish and South American players in the team than Africans where the game does seem to be based on a more physical aspect - he also won't have many Scandinavians in his team for the same reason.

Harry Maguire is as much of a stereotype as anyone, a produce of the never say die, big slabhead English centre half.

Most stereotypes do usually have an element of truth in them (even if it has been distorted), it's just that sometimes our perspective can become slightly warped by them. Sometimes we tend to view things through a stereotypical lens-- and of course, it's impossible to ever have a completely neutral view of something. I suppose my point was that a lot of black players don't often get praise for their technique or creativity and are more likely to be praised for physical attributes. But of course there are many black players with great technique etc. 

 

I agree about the football culture point and I don't think that this has anything to do with ethnicity necessarily. It's just history and our history is very contingent. In Spain and in South America kids often grow up playing football in really tight spaces, or tight courts and as a result, players will tend to develop the technical aspect of their game more quickly because to succeed on small/cramped pitches you have to be able to move the ball quickly and control it really well. If you contrast that even with the U.K... I grew up in the 90s and 00's and we were pretty much playing on full size pitches by 10/11. We seem to produce quite athletic players and premier league games are played at a frenetic pace, especially when contrasted with games in Spain or Italy. 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Xen said:

Weighing in as I fit the criteria and Rumble has deceived us all ;)

 

Never experienced any direct homophobic abuse, personally. Then again, looking at me/my mannerisms you probably wouldn't assume I'm gay without knowing me, so I guess that sort of homophobia doesn't get aimed at me any more than it would any other fan.

 

I have heard negative, homophobic comments said in general (calling something gay, or calling their mate a f*g) usually by the younger crowd, but it's never seemed vitriolic or an attack on any particular individual. Occasionally a bit of grumbling when its the rainbow laces campaign or similar. Just my personal experiences, mind, so it may be more of a problem in different areas of the ground or for other people. Maybe I'm just blissfully ignorant.

 

I've taken my (reluctant) partner with me to a few cup games and again, no abuse, although I'm not sure I'd be all that comfortable holding his hand or any other light PDA in/around the ground. That extends beyond football though and is the case for a lot of LGBT people in all sorts of public spaces.

 

 

 

... x

Xen fair play and exactly how it should be, the tribal nature of football and it's fans will always have some misguided and over exuberant elements.

As someone 50+ I thankfully have seen massive improvements in the understanding of inclusiveness at both the ground and in society in general. 

The world will never be perfect but I do think we are blessed as to what a great and integrated city Leicester is.

I hope your partner becomes less reluctant to come to the home of football and as for the hand holding I've been married for nearly 25 years and Mrs BTS won't hold my hand or kiss me either but that's cos she don't like me lol

x

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17 minutes ago, Bluetintedspecs said:

Xen fair play and exactly how it should be, the tribal nature of football and it's fans will always have some misguided and over exuberant elements.

As someone 50+ I thankfully have seen massive improvements in the understanding of inclusiveness at both the ground and in society in general. 

The world will never be perfect but I do think we are blessed as to what a great and integrated city Leicester is.

I hope your partner becomes less reluctant to come to the home of football and as for the hand holding I've been married for nearly 25 years and Mrs BTS won't hold my hand or kiss me either but that's cos she don't like me lol

x

I doubt it. He's a Geordie lol And not a big fan of football either, really.

 

Only dragged him to games last season because it got me extra priority points on my membership haha. Think they've fixed that now, but in truth I quite like bringing him along (he enjoys it really) so he doesn't need to know that :thumbup:

 

Edited by Xen
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On 27/11/2018 at 19:20, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

 

https://www.football365.com/news/wright-recalls-racist-abuse-he-received-from-own-team-mates

 

 

 

Former Arsenal and England striker Ian Wright has revealed that he received racist abuse from some of his own team-mates early on in his career.

Wright, who is now a brilliant pundit, played over 200 times for both the Gunners and Crystal Palace as well as representing West Ham, Nottingham Forest, Celtic and Burnley.

In a new ITV documentary called ‘Out Of Their Skin‘, Wright says it was common place for training matches to take place as “blacks against whites”.

Wright made an extremely successful career out the game, scoring over 300 goals for club and country – but he has lifted the lid on what it was like for a black player in Palace’s dressing room in his early days at Selhurst Park.

“When I first signed for Palace I got abuse in the changing room. It was just an accepted thing to do that,” Wright recalled on the documentary.

“In training we played blacks against whites, people are flying in, flare-ups. A lot of the time the black guys won, you know. Some of the times there was friction.

“Black players had a submissive way about them, in a predominantly white environment. Somewhere along the line you’re going to be the butt of jokes.”

The two-part documentary will hit your TV screens on ITV4 at 10pm on Tuesday, November 27 and Wednesday, November 28.

 

 

 

Only just seen this post, hence delayed reaction.

 

Very interesting in view of a personal memory. In the 1980s, when Wright was at Palace, I was living and working in London for several years. A mate of mine from work had grown up as friends with a (white) Palace first team player and one day he and another mate went down to meet the player after training or a match or something. This would have been about 1987. As I recall, they met the player after training in a players' lounge or canteen or something. Afterwards, the second bloke told me that he found the atmosphere very strange as all the black players were sitting together in one group and all the white players were sitting together in another group, neither group speaking to the other.

 

I'm still in regular contact with the second bloke so will try to remember to ask him about it. Funny enough, a few months back I exchanged emails with the first bloke (the one who actually knew the player), first contact I've had with him for 25 years or more.

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I was born and bred in this country of black Caribbean ethnicity.

I have heard 'black' players called lazy numerous times over the years where I felt it was a stereotypical thing to say.

In the case of Kelechi I would like to see the stats but he certainly looks lazy when playing.

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2 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

Only just seen this post, hence delayed reaction.

 

Very interesting in view of a personal memory. In the 1980s, when Wright was at Palace, I was living and working in London for several years. A mate of mine from work had grown up as friends with a (white) Palace first team player and one day he and another mate went down to meet the player after training or a match or something. This would have been about 1987. As I recall, they met the player after training in a players' lounge or canteen or something. Afterwards, the second bloke told me that he found the atmosphere very strange as all the black players were sitting together in one group and all the white players were sitting together in another group, neither group speaking to the other.

 

I'm still in regular contact with the second bloke so will try to remember to ask him about it. Funny enough, a few months back I exchanged emails with the first bloke (the one who actually knew the player), first contact I've had with him for 25 years or more.

Weirdly, I remember going to a Leicester City presentation night and seeing something similar.

 

I remember seeing a table with Impey, Sinclair, Arphexad etc whilst all the other tables were almost exclusively white.

 

I was only about 14 but remember it quite vividly. I'm absolutely certain there wasn't any animosity between the groups though.

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2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Weirdly, I remember going to a Leicester City presentation night and seeing something similar.

 

I remember seeing a table with Impey, Sinclair, Arphexad etc whilst all the other tables were almost exclusively white.

 

I was only about 14 but remember it quite vividly. I'm absolutely certain there wasn't any animosity between the groups though.

Was very common for that to happen but mainly in the 70s and 80s was very much a  community thing my Dad played for Villas youth team and a few reserve games in the 70s and he said it was very divided in terms of who he knocked about with but as teammates they were fine, and that was at the height of it all.

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4 hours ago, RumbleFox said:

Everyone being treated equally is the exact point of the group. X 

There is nothing in life that is equal. It's why we have rich and poor talented and untalented, good-looking and the ugly, highly intelligent and thick as Puel.

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1 hour ago, Bunyip said:

There is nothing in life that is equal. It's why we have rich and poor talented and untalented, good-looking and the ugly, highly intelligent and thick as Puel.

This is a category error.

 

You're conflating what people are with what we're actually talking about  - how you treat them, irrespective of what they are.

 

To put it another way, your analogy weakens your argument. The only reason we have this thread is because, as you say, not everyone is equal (at least not equal in the sense you mean it) 

 

 

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