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Buce

What's in the news?

By Buce, in General Chat

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purpleronnie

purpleronnie

Posted
Posted
50 minutes ago, MattP said:

I think many were but I obviously couldn't prove it. Point is though, were they ever interested in doing anything about it when it happened to him or people they opposed? They couldn't care less then.

 

Now it's a Remain female being attacked we have MP's writing to this police, the speaker making statements and even absurd talk of the law being changed.

 

When it's Farage, Boris etc you don't hear a word from anyone about it, they just have to tolerate it and in the case of the former even pay for his own security.

 

I mean the same people now calling this were the ones openly ready to join Westminster protests if Trump visited (and just imagine the level of personal abuse we would have seen there) - John McDonnell is on the record as saying no Tory should be able to walk the street without direct action.

 

It's just all so transparent. 

I remember a lot of outrage when Jacob rees mogg and his family were harassed.

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Vacamion

Vacamion

Posted
Posted
36 minutes ago, MattP said:

I think many were but I obviously couldn't prove it. Point is though, were they ever interested in doing anything about it when it happened to him or people they opposed? They couldn't care less then.

 

Now it's a Remain female being attacked we have MP's writing to this police, the speaker making statements and even absurd talk of the law being changed.

 

When it's Farage, Boris etc you don't hear a word from anyone about it, they just have to tolerate it and in the case of the former even pay for his own security.

 

I mean the same people now calling this were the ones openly ready to join Westminster protests if Trump visited (and just imagine the level of personal abuse we would have seen there) - John McDonnell is on the record as saying no Tory should be able to walk the street without direct action.

 

It's just all so transparent. 

 

What's wrong with changing the law if the current law allows harassment and intimidation in the way which occurred yesterday?

 

I am a very strong believer in the right to assemble and protest, the right to say stuff other people disagree with and even the right to say things which may cause others to take offence, because they are inclined to do so.

 

Voltaire and all that...

 

However, such expressions of your opinion should be from a reasonable distance, they should not be done with menace and they should not prevent others enjoying their own lives and liberties.

 

Crowding round people in a group, blocking their path, calling them fascists, demanding answers to questions if they don't want to engage is wrong whether it happens to Farage, Soubury, Jones or whoever.

 

Such behaviour in the past to one "side" does not excuse it now being done to the other "side".  

 

If something's wrong, it's wrong.  

 

The suggestion that yesterday's yellow vested idiots have somehow deserved the right to harass people they disagree with because of past equally bad behaviour to Boris and Nigel, is wrong.

 

I would hope that this point could be agreed on all sides.

 

By the way, in contradiction to my Voltairian instincts, I think that broadcasters should be allowed to water-cannon the idiots from both sides with bull horns and flags on extender poles, who try to interrupt live broadcasts.  

 

Or maybe spray effluent on them...

 

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RoboFox

RoboFox

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, MattP said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46789601

 

Incredible how quickly and robustly they come down on this sort of behaviour as soon it's one of their own on the receiving end of it.

 

Farage went through this for years and they couldn't give a shit, the hypocrisy of it all is terrible.

The bloke partly responsible for the verbal intimidation is from Leicester.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6569223/Rabble-rouser-branded-Tory-MP-Anna-Soubry-Nazi.html

 

Sounds like a real charmer.

 

Shame to have our city associated with someone of his ilk in the press, given Leicester is proudly a tolerant and diverse community.

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, purpleronnie said:

I remember a lot of outrage when Jacob rees mogg and his family were harassed.

One person on here did say his family were "fair game".

 

I actually think that's about the only time it happenedand it's perhaps because Rees-Mogg is so polite. Fact is barely anyway has cared when Leavers have been consistently accused of being Nazi's, bigots etc and it isn't very nice.

 

It's the double standards.

 

Pretty good read here from Brendan O'Neill - 

 

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/08/i-know-how-anna-soubry-feels/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

 

I felt a new emotion yesterday: empathy with the Conservative MP and arch-Remainer Anna Soubry. In response to protesters on College Green who were chanting ‘Soubry is a Nazi!’ as she was being interviewed by the BBC, Soubry said: ‘I do object to being called a Nazi.’ And I knew just how she felt. Many Leave voters will have. Because for two-and-a-half years we have been similarly libelled as Nazis, branded by everyone from Prince Charles to the Archbishop of Canterbury to broadsheet columnists as racist, xenophobic cretins whose self-destructive vote to leave the EU has resuscitated the ‘fascist tradition’ (in the archbishop’s words).

 

So we know how you feel, Ms Soubry. And we know it isn’t nice. To be denounced as fascistic simply because you hold a political opinion that others do not like is horrible and demeaning. I am glad it has only happened to you a couple of times, whereas for us Leavers it has felt like a daily occurrence. There it is, day in, day out, in the mutterings of Remain-leaning politicians, in the bilious output of Lord Adonis (leaving the EU is comparable to ‘appeasement in the 1930s’, he said), in the increasingly frenzied claims made by sections of the academy (Brexit is the ‘harbinger of a return to the 1930s’, professors insist) – time and again that ugly slur that says the 17.4million who voted for Brexit either have Nazi leanings or certainly helped to bring about a Nazi-like climate. But here’s a question, a question that demands an answer from all of those who are up in arms about the horrible ‘Nazi’ chants made at Ms Soubry yesterday. People like Norman Smith of the BBC, for example, who asked: ‘Is this what it’s come to… Nazi taunts?’ The question is this: why are you only now offended by Nazi taunts? Where was your outrage during the ceaseless, background noise of Nazi taunts against Leave voters over the past two-and-a-half years? Why do gruff blokes shouting ‘Nazi’ at Anna Soubry offend you more than bishops and princes of the realm and well-educated columnists effectively doing the same to ordinary voters, though of course in expertly crafted speeches and pristinely worded newspaper columns rather than in rough bellowing from a public green?

 

Indeed, not only have the chattering classes suddenly discovered that it is unpleasant to refer to people who aren’t Nazis as Nazis – they have even demanded that the police take action against such uncalled-for Nazi taunts. According to reports, the Metropolitan Police have launched an investigation not only into protesters’ surrounding of Ms Soubry as she walked into the Commons but also of their earlier cry of ‘Soubry is a Nazi’. In the words of the Press Association, ‘Police are investigating whether any criminal offence was committed when Conservative MP Anna Soubry was branded a “Nazi” by Brexit protesters outside parliament’. There are a few things to say about this. First, what kind of country criminalises the insulting of politicians? An unfree one. Indeed, it would be profoundly ironic if the authorities responded to the branding of a politician as fascistic by arresting and charging people for the crime of expressing their political opinions. Secondly, if it is now a crime to shout ‘Nazi’ or ‘fascist’ at people who clearly are neither, then the entire Corbynista left had better engage the services of a good lawyer: overblown fascist accusations are their stock-in-trade. And thirdly, and most pressingly, there’s that question that hangs darkly over all of this, which none of the political or media class can answer, at least not without exposing their own prejudices: why is it a crime to issue Nazi taunts against Anna Soubry but not against the housewife in Stoke or the former miner in Wales or the beauty therapist in Essex who all voted for Brexit? ‘Fascists’, the chattering classes have been whispering and hinting about these sorts of people since June 2016, and the police showed not the slightest bit of interest in those Nazis taunts.

 

As well they should not. Speech should never be a police matter. Including heated speech, angry speech, protesting speech. Including both speech that libels Leave voters and speech that mauls Remainers. Including even the speech that was heard in Westminster yesterday, however unpleasant it might have been. The response to the protests against Anna Soubry, and also against the Guardiancolumnist Owen Jones, has been far worse than the protests themselves. First because of the way the infinitesimally small band of irate protesters are being held up as archetypal Brexiteers, as if these largely hard-right individuals represent the 17.4million who voted for Brexit – the largest electoral bloc in UK history. They do not. Brexit was an accomplishment of vast numbers of decent, hard-working, good people, and to demean it as the handiwork of cranks and blowhards is an insult to the demos. And the second reason we should worry about the response to the protest is because it has been alarmingly authoritarian. Lord Adonis has written to the police to find out why they didn’t take action against the protesters. MPs want the police to clamp down on Brexit protesting outside the Commons. Even supposedly radical Corbynistas suggest tougher action is needed against ‘the fash’, as they see pretty much everyone who disagrees with them. These calls are incredibly dangerous. Parliament Square and College Green and other areas around the Houses of Parliament have been sites of protest for centuries – from the December Days of 1641, when apprentices from across London gathered in rowdy fashion to demand the expulsion of bishops from the House of Lords, to Black Friday in November 1910, when Suffragettes gathered outside parliament and were denounced by that era’s guardians of moral opinion as a ‘mob’ (sound familiar?) and were savagely beaten by the police for having had the temerity to agitate so near to parliament. To restrict the right to protest around parliament just because disagreeable people are currently protesting there would be devastating to freedom of association and freedom of speech. So it is unfortunate that Anna Soubry was subjected to verbal abuse. Just as it is unfortunate that Leavers have been subjected to similar abuse, though on an even larger, more constant scale. But both us Leavers and Remainers like Ms Soubry must accept the following fact, difficult as it might sometimes be: people’s right to express their political anger must take precedence over our sensitivities. Every single time.

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bovril

bovril

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This sums up much of this thread.

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

The bloke partly responsible for the verbal intimidation is from Leicester.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6569223/Rabble-rouser-branded-Tory-MP-Anna-Soubry-Nazi.html

 

Sounds like a real charmer.

 

Shame to have our city associated with someone of his ilk in the press, given Leicester is proudly a tolerant and diverse community.

The bloke is an idiot and that's pretty obvious. Anyone who wants to intimidate people to that level on the street is inappropriate and hope he realises the damage he is causing to himself and his cause.

 

But the points stands it's a shame this has only become a problem now a female Remainer is on the end of it.

 

I have no idea why Leicester being a proud, tolerant and diverse City has anything to do with this argument. 

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purpleronnie

purpleronnie

Posted
Posted (edited)

Matt plenty of remainers have been abused, some female remain mp's have had horrendous racist and misogynistic abuse, I've already shown how remainers have made the news for the abuse they were given. It's not a one way street.

 

Abuse of this kind should be condemned and often there comes a time when an incident happens that makes the news and catches fire, it happens with all news stories not just political ones.

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RoboFox

RoboFox

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, MattP said:

The bloke is an idiot and that's pretty obvious. Anyone who wants to intimidate people to that level on the street is inappropriate and hope he realises the damage he is causing to himself and his cause.

 

But the points stands it's a shame this has only become a problem now a female Remainer is on the end of it.

 

I have no idea why Leicester being a proud, tolerant and diverse City has anything to do with this argument. 

It doesn't. I was making a separate point.

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bovril

bovril

Posted
Posted
Just now, MattP said:

The bloke is an idiot and that's pretty obvious. Anyone who wants to intimidate people to that level on the street is inappropriate and hope he realises the damage he is causing to himself and his cause.

 

But the points stands it's a shame this has only become a problem now a female Remainer is on the end of it.

 

I have no idea why Leicester being a proud, tolerant and diverse City has anything to do with this argument. 

Just stop after "cause", nothing more is needed. It's stupid that when something unpleasant happens people are often more concerned about pointing out it's not only their side / team / political party / nation / tribe / whatever that does it.

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted
Just now, bovril said:

Just stop after "cause", nothing more is needed. It's stupid that when something unpleasant happens people are often more concerned about pointing out it's not only their side / team / political party / nation / tribe / whatever that does it.

But the double standards are completely wrong and need pointing out.

 

It shouldn't be a situation where something is only done about abuse because the "wrong" side is now on the end of it.

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FilbertFrog

FilbertFrog

Posted
Posted
46 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

The bloke partly responsible for the verbal intimidation is from Leicester.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6569223/Rabble-rouser-branded-Tory-MP-Anna-Soubry-Nazi.html

 

Sounds like a real charmer.

 

Shame to have our city associated with someone of his ilk in the press, given Leicester is proudly a tolerant and diverse community.

Proper scum and an embarrassment to this fine city 

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LiberalFox

LiberalFox

Posted
Posted
17 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

 

There will indeed be public discontent regardless of the outcome. But the scale of the conflict could be greater depending on the path we take. Maybe you're right that the threat of violence is overblown but it would be surprising if there was NOT significantly more violence than last time - involving a minority, of course, but situations can quickly escalate. Rightly or wrongly, there will be people feeling angry that their 2016 vote is being ignored - anger doubtless exploited by people like Tommy Robinson. Look at the next post after yours from Vacamion about aggression towards Soubry/Jones today. That's BEFORE any referendum. Can you imagine how inflamed things could get during a referendum?

 

Where I do agree with you is about the threats of a "messy Brexit". I think the damage and conflict caused by a chaotic No Deal would be much worse than during a referendum. If the choice is between No Deal and a referendum, I'd definitely want the latter. But what would the questions be? Polls suggest that there has only been a small shift towards Remain (for now) but widespread opposition to May's Deal - and a lot of support for No Deal. There would be outrage on the Brexiteer side if the choice were between May's Deal and Remain.....so do you just go ahead and risk angering up to half of the population, alienating large swathes of the population from democratic politics, or do you include No Deal or some other Brexit option, which might win....?

 

If we had to have a referendum, a two-stage one with a second vote on the deal negotiated would have been better.....if that had been clear before the first referendum, but it wasn't. Everyone went into the referendum believing that it was a one-off decision. It is obviously going to be massively controversial to change the rules after the first vote without a strong reason. A large shift in public opinion towards Remain would have constituted such a reason - but that hasn't happened; most people's opinions haven't shifted. If we end up heading inevitably for No Deal (i.e. May's Deal is defeated and no other deal has parliamentary support), that constitutes such a reason. If a viable deal can get through parliament, then there's a strong argument for accepting it - even if, like you, I think Remain (and reform) is the best option.

 

Genuine question: Did the Lib Dems campaign for a two-stage referendum BEFORE the first one, or only after the result was known? I don't remember any big pressure for a potential second vote beforehand - from anyone. I only remember some argument over the wording of the question and some thinking that there shouldn't be a referendum at all. The 2015 Lib Dem manifesto merely says the party would hold a referendum if MORE sovereignty is transferred to the EU and would then campaign for Remain - nothing about a vote on the final deal in the event of a Leave vote.

 

After the referendum, the Lib Dems could have respected the democratic vote at least long enough to give the govt a chance to show what they could negotiate. As an unequivocally pro-EU party, they could have gone round the country whipping up support for the EU, in theory, but their poorish result in 2017 suggests that wouldn't have had much impact. The vast majority of people, including most Remainers, accepted the result and were waiting for the govt to get on with it - or at least to see what happened. While I'm not a fan of Corbyn, I was happy with the Labour fence-sitting stance. I hoped that the govt's shambolic negotiations and rubbish deal would open people's minds and turn public opinion massively against Brexit, so that Labour, Lib Dems & others could have credibly sought a Remain outcome....but that doesn't seem to have happened. Labour certainly needs to be off that fence and proposing an alternative to No Deal if May's deal is defeated, though. If they cannot get an election and cannot get a parliamentary majority for an acceptable Brexit stance (e.g. EFTA/EEA with a Customs Union, no hard Irish border, mirrored EU social/environmental legislation), then they should support a second referendum.

 

I agree with you about the confidence vote purely on May being a "publicity stunt". That was just designed to show Remain-supporting Labourites (the vast majority) that he was "doing something" (he wasn't), while he avoided a proper govt confidence vote - so as to avoid his own party policy of then backing a referendum.....because he's a Neanderthal "socialism in one country" type. I hope Starmer, Thornberry, McDonnell (?) and others have his arm twisted up his back right now to force him to do something constructive - though there are benefits and justice in the Tories taking the blame for Brexit.....but not if that leads to an avoidably disastrous outcome for the nation!

 

Of course, it has to be a cross-party campaign for a Second Referendum (I see the name "People's Vote" as alienating, counter-productive propaganda). But its just competent politics that the Lib Dems should have a high profile in that campaign, alongside those from other parties. That doesn't seem to have been the case. In England, the Lib Dems have been (with the Greens) the only unequivocally pro-Remain party at a time when half the country supports Remain and Brexit is the key issue....yet the Lib Dems don't seem to have garnered any extra support whatsoever. Maybe that'll change if Corbyn cocks up big-time next week. I hope he doesn't. If he does, my vote would probably go to the Greens, not the Lib Dems. 

Firstly I don't think it is reasonable for any MP to base their decision on threats of violence. It simply shouldn't be a factor. Anger can be expressed via the ballot box and it's understandable that MPs will be wary of facing a backlash for being seen to misrepresent their constituencies.

 

If we had a referendum I'd want all options to be clearly defined outcomes agreed by both parliament and the EU. I don't want anything that merely says "renegotiate" or "no deal". It's irresponsible to allow the public the chance to vote for something unworkable. We'll also need to either extend the negotiation or revoke Article 50 to allow time for a referendum and that means the EU would need to agree.

 

 Genuine question: Did the Lib Dems campaign for a two-stage referendum BEFORE the first one, or only after the result was known? I don't remember any of the pro-remain parties paying much attention to what they would do in the event of a Brexit majority, so I'm unofficially going to say no. Do you mean you think the original referendum should have been 2-stage, asking people their preferred Brexit in the event of a Leave majority? 

 

The reality is that unless you live in a Lib Dem target seat, whether you vote Green or Lib Dem doesn't really matter. Personally I want Vince Cable to do everything possible to oppose Brexit and People's Vote is clearly the best option for that. 

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Buce said:

Tory rebels inflict another defeat on May:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/08/theresa-may-suffers-commons-defeat-over-no-deal-brexit

Utter stupidity. 

 

Very few want No Deal, but the idea you stop your own government from mitigating the damage of it if it happens is completely barmy.

 

4 minutes ago, FilbertFrog said:

The Leicester Tommy Robinson has been shut down ! 

 

A thug and a disgrace it’s good to see these muppets blocked 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jan/08/pressure-grows-on-police-to-act-over-nazi-slurs-against-anna-soubry

This is actually quite weird now. Having your Facebook pages shut down because you shout at a politician in the street?

 

We don't even know yet if he's committed a crime. 

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LiberalFox

LiberalFox

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

This is actually quite weird now. Having your Facebook pages shut down because you shout at a politician in the street?

 

We don't even know yet if he's committed a crime. 

Facebook came under a lot of criticism for allowing the protest groups in France to form. Not too surprising to see them react to this. Remember the biggest threat to Facebook is government regulation. 

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Guest MattP

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1 minute ago, LiberalFox said:

Facebook came under a lot of criticism for allowing the protest groups in France to form. Not too surprising to see them react to this. Remember the biggest threat to Facebook is government regulation. 

Bit of a difference though, one is a mass movement that has rioted for months and brought parts of a major country to a standstill, the other was a bloke shouting abuse at a politician for 65 seconds.

 

If Facebook is going to ban profiles for calling people Nazis there won't be a Corbyn supporter left on it by the Spring.

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Tuna

Tuna

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, Izzy said:

Can't believe it's 30 years to the day. Remember the shock and disbelief at the time. What a sad tragedy it was and so close to home...

 

Kegworth air disaster: 30th anniversary service to be held

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-46782519

I vaguely remember it on the news, looking back years later it's astonishing it missed the village and the motorway was clear when it came down and thus no ground casualties.

 

Thankfully these sort of incidents are extremely rare.

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Alf Bentley

Alf Bentley

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Posted

 

3 hours ago, LiberalFox said:

Firstly I don't think it is reasonable for any MP to base their decision on threats of violence. It simply shouldn't be a factor. Anger can be expressed via the ballot box and it's understandable that MPs will be wary of facing a backlash for being seen to misrepresent their constituencies.

 

If we had a referendum I'd want all options to be clearly defined outcomes agreed by both parliament and the EU. I don't want anything that merely says "renegotiate" or "no deal". It's irresponsible to allow the public the chance to vote for something unworkable. We'll also need to either extend the negotiation or revoke Article 50 to allow time for a referendum and that means the EU would need to agree.

 

 Genuine question: Did the Lib Dems campaign for a two-stage referendum BEFORE the first one, or only after the result was known? I don't remember any of the pro-remain parties paying much attention to what they would do in the event of a Brexit majority, so I'm unofficially going to say no. Do you mean you think the original referendum should have been 2-stage, asking people their preferred Brexit in the event of a Leave majority? 

 

The reality is that unless you live in a Lib Dem target seat, whether you vote Green or Lib Dem doesn't really matter. Personally I want Vince Cable to do everything possible to oppose Brexit and People's Vote is clearly the best option for that. 

 

I agree that threats of violence alone should not be the basis for a decision. If it was just a few extremists making threats, it would be down to the police to deal with them. My concern about violence is about spontaneous and escalating violence by people angry at their decision being ignored. No doubt people like Robinson and the thugs on College Green would fan the flames - and elements on the Remain side could also get involved. Not only could that cause violence during the campaign, it could seriously exacerbate social division, alienation from democratic politics and could give the Far Right a big boost - effects lasting long after the referendum.

 

But, as per my previous post, I have other concerns about a second referendum: winning a vote in parliament; getting govt to legislate for it; getting EU agreement to a delay (probable but not certain); agreeing what will be on the ballot paper; lack of time (particularly with EU elections due in May); conducting a referendum campaign when a lot of voters have entrenched opinions and/or a low level of understanding and/or zero trust in any claims made by any politicians; the potential for much greater public division, public disorder, even violence and death during the campaign....and the distinct chance that a second referendum would produce another Leave vote or even No Deal.

 

Is No Deal unworkable? I agree that it would be disastrous. It would cause all sorts of logistical chaos, conflict, job losses, business closures, national isolation, loss of cooperative projects, lost tax revenue, slashed public spending and/or increased debt, economic volatility, border chaos, even potential deaths. But the country would carry on working. It would be a horrendous mess for a long time, but unworkable? To a lesser extent, Tory/Coalition austerity policies since 2010 have been disastrous, but workable. Those on the right would claim that Corbyn's plans are "unworkable". You seem to want to restrict democratic choices only to options that you find acceptable.....a rather, er, illiberal stance. More than half the public voted for Brexit and something close to half still support it, but most of them reject May's Deal. What option would you allow them on the ballot paper if not No Deal? It would cause outrage and alienation from the democracy if you just offered a choice between Remain and May's Deal. I suppose a Canada-type deal and checks on trade crossing the Irish Sea would be an option, as it's clear the EU would accept that....

 

No, I don't mean that the original referendum could have been 2-stage, as the outcome of negotiations couldn't have been anticipated in that way. I mean that it could have been clear beforehand that, if there was a Leave vote, then there'd be a second referendum once the deal was negotiated. I'm not pretending that I thought of this at the time - and, like you, I don't remember ANY party making such a suggestion. But, assuming that the Lib Dem policy for a second referendum was only introduced after the Leave vote, it does lack democratic credibility: "Oh shit! We didn't expect to lost, er, well, we now need a second vote on the final deal!". As I said before, if there had been a major shift in public opinion, there would have been a case for a second referendum. If Parliament cannot approve any deal and we're heading for No Deal, there's also a case - as that clearly wasn't what people voted for. They voted for a negotiated Brexit deal.

 

I appreciate that outside Lib Dem target seats (and maybe a couple of Green target seats), a vote for either party will not affect the result - due to our stupid election system (I support PR - STV in multi-member constituencies, one of the reasons I've voted Lib Dem a couple of times in the past). But, even without affecting any constituency results, a big switch of votes to smaller centre-left parties would affect internal thinking within Labour. In some seats, of course, there'd be a risk of handing seats to the Tories - but I'm in Leicester South, where Labour had a 20,000+ majority last time.

 

I hope the ultimate outcome is Remain, I really do. But I think anyone seeing a second referendum as a simple solution is dreaming - it's like wishing the clock could be turned back to produce a different referendum result. Can't happen.....and there are major risks in having a second referendum. Not as major as those of No Deal, by a long chalk, but serious enough. Probably enough of this extended dialogue for now, eh? :D

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