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Buce

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This is quite incredible. I know the government has shown little regard for the 'constitution' in the last couple of years but this basically rips most of it up. Quite something. 

 

Commons plot to seize control from Theresa May ahead of Brexit vote

Theresa May has been warned that her government “will lose its ability to govern” after Downing Street uncovered a bombshell plot by senior MPs to seize control of Brexit negotiations and sideline the prime minister.

 

A cross-party group of senior backbenchers — including former Tory ministers — plan what one senior figure branded a “very British coup” if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday.

 

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries-old relationship between executive and legislature.

 

Downing Street believes that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned — a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

 

May’s team got wind of the plot on Thursday evening when one of the conspirators — a former cabinet minister — was overheard by the government chief whip Julian Smith discussing the plan in the MPs’ cloakroom. He commissioned written advice from legal experts, who warned May her government’s future was at stake.

 

Smith briefed May on Friday on the explosive document, which says: “Such an attempt represents a clear and present danger to all government business.

 

“Without control of the order paper, the government has no control over the House of Commons and the parliamentary business and legislation necessary to progress government policies. The government would lose its ability to govern.”

 

A senior government source said that May and her aides were “shellshocked” and declared: “This could be game over for Brexit.” Another added: “This sounds very like a very British coup — and one that has profound implications for democracy.”

 

Crucially, Commons sources say the Speaker, John Bercow, is likely to allow the gambit to proceed. It can now be revealed that one of the rebel ringleaders, the former attorney general Dominic Grieve, visited Bercow in his official residence on Tuesday, the day before the Speaker tore up Commons rules to help remainer MPs.

 

Last night, Grieve refused to deny he was examining plans to seize control of the Commons timetable. He said: “I have no doubt that lots of people may be looking at all sorts of ideas since we are in a deepening national political crisis.”

 

Britain will leave the EU on March 29 unless there is a new act of parliament overturning existing Brexit legislation. Senior Brexiteers assume this is not possible as the government controls the timetable of Commons business. The plot, which May’s aides believe is being orchestrated by Sir Oliver Letwin, an ally of David Cameron, would torpedo that assumption.

 

If, as expected, May loses the crunch vote on Tuesday evening, she must table a new plan by the following Monday. Tory whips believe plotters would then table an amendment to May’s plan (or the business motion that precedes it), proposing that future motions setting out the business of the House could be tabled by non-government members. If that passes, MPs, not ministers, could shape the future of Brexit.

 

Tomorrow night, members of the “Norway group”, which backs membership of the single market, will meet to discuss their plans. That group includes Letwin, Nick Boles, Nicky Morgan and Labour’s Stephen Kinnock.

 

Boles last night confirmed he wants to make it illegal to leave with no deal. He said: “We have a mechanism which will give parliament control of the Brexit negotiations and ensure we do not leave the EU without a deal on March 29. To change a law you need to pass a law. I am working on ways to achieve that outcome. We will be publishing it on Tuesday.”

 

Labour’s Chris Leslie is also developing plans to cut off the salaries of ministers unless Downing Street abides by the rulings of the Commons. Even before the plot was uncovered, The Sunday Times had learnt MPs were plotting to get Bercow to suspend Commons standing order 14, which says that “government business shall have precedence at every sitting”. It has been in place since Charles Stewart Parnell’s campaign of obstructionism for Irish nationalism in the 1880s.

 

Last week, the Speaker tore up parliamentary precedent to allow another amendment by Grieve that set May a short deadline to return with a plan B — in defiance of the advice of the clerk of the Commons, who is guardian of the rules.

 

A source close to Bercow said: “Tearing up the standing orders is what I would expect to happen. He is setting out to stop Brexit. He’s part of the rebel team.”

 

Details of the plot are now being shared by Tory whips with leading Brexiteers to try to persuade them to back May’s deal to save Brexit.

 

Meanwhile, the European Commission will shortly publish a letter to reassure MPs that the controversial Northern Ireland backstop is “temporary”. Yet insiders still expect the prime minister to lose by 100 or more votes.

 

Letwin did not respond to a request for comment. Bercow’s spokeswoman said: “We have no knowledge of backbench rule changes. The Speaker did meet Mr Grieve on Tuesday. He meets members from both sides of the House and all parties.”

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7 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

This is quite incredible. I know the government has shown little regard for the 'constitution' in the last couple of years but this basically rips most of it up. Quite something. 

 

Commons plot to seize control from Theresa May ahead of Brexit vote

Theresa May has been warned that her government “will lose its ability to govern” after Downing Street uncovered a bombshell plot by senior MPs to seize control of Brexit negotiations and sideline the prime minister.

 

A cross-party group of senior backbenchers — including former Tory ministers — plan what one senior figure branded a “very British coup” if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday.

 

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries-old relationship between executive and legislature.

 

Downing Street believes that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned — a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

 

May’s team got wind of the plot on Thursday evening when one of the conspirators — a former cabinet minister — was overheard by the government chief whip Julian Smith discussing the plan in the MPs’ cloakroom. He commissioned written advice from legal experts, who warned May her government’s future was at stake.

 

Smith briefed May on Friday on the explosive document, which says: “Such an attempt represents a clear and present danger to all government business.

 

“Without control of the order paper, the government has no control over the House of Commons and the parliamentary business and legislation necessary to progress government policies. The government would lose its ability to govern.”

 

A senior government source said that May and her aides were “shellshocked” and declared: “This could be game over for Brexit.” Another added: “This sounds very like a very British coup — and one that has profound implications for democracy.”

 

Crucially, Commons sources say the Speaker, John Bercow, is likely to allow the gambit to proceed. It can now be revealed that one of the rebel ringleaders, the former attorney general Dominic Grieve, visited Bercow in his official residence on Tuesday, the day before the Speaker tore up Commons rules to help remainer MPs.

 

Last night, Grieve refused to deny he was examining plans to seize control of the Commons timetable. He said: “I have no doubt that lots of people may be looking at all sorts of ideas since we are in a deepening national political crisis.”

 

Britain will leave the EU on March 29 unless there is a new act of parliament overturning existing Brexit legislation. Senior Brexiteers assume this is not possible as the government controls the timetable of Commons business. The plot, which May’s aides believe is being orchestrated by Sir Oliver Letwin, an ally of David Cameron, would torpedo that assumption.

 

If, as expected, May loses the crunch vote on Tuesday evening, she must table a new plan by the following Monday. Tory whips believe plotters would then table an amendment to May’s plan (or the business motion that precedes it), proposing that future motions setting out the business of the House could be tabled by non-government members. If that passes, MPs, not ministers, could shape the future of Brexit.

 

Tomorrow night, members of the “Norway group”, which backs membership of the single market, will meet to discuss their plans. That group includes Letwin, Nick Boles, Nicky Morgan and Labour’s Stephen Kinnock.

 

Boles last night confirmed he wants to make it illegal to leave with no deal. He said: “We have a mechanism which will give parliament control of the Brexit negotiations and ensure we do not leave the EU without a deal on March 29. To change a law you need to pass a law. I am working on ways to achieve that outcome. We will be publishing it on Tuesday.”

 

Labour’s Chris Leslie is also developing plans to cut off the salaries of ministers unless Downing Street abides by the rulings of the Commons. Even before the plot was uncovered, The Sunday Times had learnt MPs were plotting to get Bercow to suspend Commons standing order 14, which says that “government business shall have precedence at every sitting”. It has been in place since Charles Stewart Parnell’s campaign of obstructionism for Irish nationalism in the 1880s.

 

Last week, the Speaker tore up parliamentary precedent to allow another amendment by Grieve that set May a short deadline to return with a plan B — in defiance of the advice of the clerk of the Commons, who is guardian of the rules.

 

A source close to Bercow said: “Tearing up the standing orders is what I would expect to happen. He is setting out to stop Brexit. He’s part of the rebel team.”

 

Details of the plot are now being shared by Tory whips with leading Brexiteers to try to persuade them to back May’s deal to save Brexit.

 

Meanwhile, the European Commission will shortly publish a letter to reassure MPs that the controversial Northern Ireland backstop is “temporary”. Yet insiders still expect the prime minister to lose by 100 or more votes.

 

Letwin did not respond to a request for comment. Bercow’s spokeswoman said: “We have no knowledge of backbench rule changes. The Speaker did meet Mr Grieve on Tuesday. He meets members from both sides of the House and all parties.”

It's absolutely scandalous. 

 

This must be one of the biggest stitch ups we have seen in British politics.

 

How Bercow is getting away with this is beyond me.

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36 minutes ago, MattP said:

It's absolutely scandalous. 

 

This must be one of the biggest stitch ups we have seen in British politics.

 

How Bercow is getting away with this is beyond me.

 

But is it true? Or is it just a ruse to get Brexiteers onside with May's deal?

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Details of the plot are now being shared by Tory whips with leading Brexiteers to try to persuade them to back May’s deal to save Brexit.

 

I think you’ll find the quote above is key as to the origins of this story.

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If the second referendum does occur from all this it simply has to be boycotted - it's clear that's where the house wants to take it.

 

Let the establishment overturn the decision on a 99% Remain vote on a 40% turnout and we can go about exiting properly in a GE after it.

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2 hours ago, Buce said:

But is it true? Or is it just a ruse to get Brexiteers onside with May's deal?

The speakers office has admitted he met Grieve before, we already know an amendment on a business motion was turned down from Peter Bone. 

 

Hopefully Mr Speaker will break precedent (after all nothing changes if we don't!) and release the details of this and the advice he released from his clerks so we can be assured he has acted in an impartial manner.

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My only comment:

 

The great scandal was the Fixed Term Parliament Act which ripped up all precedents for government behavior.

 

As a result, we have a minority government which has attempted to ignore, lie to, sideline, and act in contempt of parliament.

 

The government has already lost a vote on it's finance bill which which would in itself have been a reason for a general election in the past.

 

Teresa May has attempted to act like a dictator.

 

Brexit is not a party issue, it is bigger than that. It was vital that the government worked across party lines to enact a Brexit that had the support of the house and could at least attempt to bring together the country. 

 

Instead the government has tried to divide continuously.

 

Much of this has been enabled by Brexiteers that argued and forced through motion after motion removing parliament's ability to oversee Brexit.

 

Finally, we have some light at the end of the tunnel as parliament flexes it's muscles. I fully support whatever parliament needs to do to ensure that MPs across the house can determine our direction of travel. 

 

This is not about personalities or "leavers" and "remainers". It is about parliamentary sovereignty and the systematic attempt by a minority government to dictate.

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3 hours ago, MattP said:

It's absolutely scandalous. 

 

This must be one of the biggest stitch ups we have seen in British politics.

 

How Bercow is getting away with this is beyond me.

 

I'm not sure its scandalous, but its interesting. 

 

Parliament is essentially fighting on two sides. It's fighting to stop the government breaching its constitutional bounds and expecting it to act in good faith (shame it didn't do so earlier) and its fighting against the fact the sovereignty of the people which has essentially superseded parliament. It's now fighting to maintain a veto over the people (veto the will of the plebs as Robert Tombs said), the people that thanks to the referendums in 75 and 16 now hold ultimate sovereignty. Parliament voted to hand over that power to the people and they're advised to remember that. They should also remember that Miller fought for them to have the right to vote to trigger A50, which they did, and that the natural end point of that is to leave without a deal after two years. They voted for that, they voted for the UK to leave the EU without a deal. Anything more than a minor delay in leaving will have huge implications for the legitimacy of the HoC in my opinion. 

 

I don't expect you to agree Matt, but I simply don't understand how the WA isn't going to pass. I am still yet to read, hear, or speak to anyone that can offer a coherent argument against it. Apart from those that absolutely believe everything must be done to ensure we remain because its their last chance. People seem to have conflated it with 'The Deal' which it isn't. 'The Deal' comes afterwards and all options remain on the table. Labour are well within their rights to seek chaos to usher in a GE, but if people want to talk about it transcending party lines then they should encourage Labour to vote for the WA because quite frankly there no changes to be made to it. 

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1 hour ago, Kopfkino said:

 

 don't expect you to agree Matt, but I simply don't understand how the WA isn't going to pass. I am still yet to read, hear, or speak to anyone that can offer a coherent argument against it. Apart from those that absolutely believe everything must be done to ensure we remain because its their last chance. People seem to have conflated it with 'The Deal' which it isn't. 'The Deal' comes afterwards and all options remain on the table. Labour are well within their rights to seek chaos to usher in a GE, but if people want to talk about it transcending party lines then they should encourage Labour to vote for the WA because quite frankly there no changes to be made to it. 

I certainly hope you are right, for what it's worth I can see it passing under amendments to keep us in the single market and customs union - but I just don't see how it can pass with the current deal or no deal.

 

Corbyn was on Marr this morning still trying to claim he can get a better deal - I still can't work out what he is trying to do here as everyone knows he is talking total bollocks but continues to do it.

 

The idea he can't tell us what the position will be of the Labour party in a election 2 days before he intends to table a motion to get one is incredible. 

Edited by MattP
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11 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

But Liddle is white, so he doesn’t have the right to express that opinion.  

:dunno: He's got every right to express his opinion.

 

However, like his view on womens issues, just don't expect him to have any regard for the problems beyond highlighting that they exist and scoring points by reassuring the readers that they are most definitely the sole fault of the demographics focused on.

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33 minutes ago, MattP said:

Corbyn was on Marr this morning still trying to claim he can get a better deal - I still can't work out what he is trying to do here as everyone knows he is talking total bollocks but continues to do it.

 

The idea he can't tell us what the position will be of the Labour party in a election 2 days before he intends to table a motion to get one is incredible. 

 

It was a car crash. That he called the ECHR a part EU institution was enough to know he hasn't the faintest idea. All EU members have to be a part of it but other than it has nothing to do with the EU.

That he also thinks we can have any kind of meaningful say over EU trade deals if we were in a CU is also laughable

 

35 minutes ago, MattP said:

lol

 

IMG_20190113_142848.jpg

 

David Lammy and Sarah Wollaston are in constant competition to be the worst MP. Tbh those two being in parliament is enough reason for parliament to have less power.

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5 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

It was a car crash. That he called the ECHR a part EU institution was enough to know he hasn't the faintest idea. All EU members have to be a part of it but other than it has nothing to do with the EU.

That he also thinks we can have any kind of meaningful say over EU trade deals if we were in a CU is also laughable

 

 

David Lammy and Sarah Wollaston are in constant competition to be the worst MP. Tbh those two being in parliament is enough reason for parliament to have less power.

Corbyn never fails to amaze me with his lack of knowledge in his own field, he doesn't know basic things about politics a A-Level student should know. How he has has got to the top of a major party is quite incredible. 

 

Although I get sick of David Lammy and his constant race baiting, I think he's the funniest man in parliament, his performance on Mastermind was hilarious, the interview where he said he hasn't seen a policeman and there was one right behind him was as good as a sketch on the Fast Show, he even managed to turn Grenfell into a farce by going on TV and accusing the police of covering up the death toll.

 

My favourite ever though is still the time he accused the BBC of racism for asking if black or white smoke was going to emerge from the Vatican - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21764636

 

He genuinely thought it was a reference to skin colour lol

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4 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Robbie Williams is being a prìck:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46855232

 

6 hours ago, bovril said:

Neil Warnock came out as pro-Brexit. Which is up there with Ricky Martin coming out as gay. 

For the top reply, might as well refer to the bottom reply.

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5 hours ago, MattP said:

Corbyn never fails to amaze me with his lack of knowledge in his own field, he doesn't know basic things about politics a A-Level student should know. How he has has got to the top of a major party is quite incredible. 

 

Although I get sick of David Lammy and his constant race baiting, I think he's the funniest man in parliament, his performance on Mastermind was hilarious, the interview where he said he hasn't seen a policeman and there was one right behind him was as good as a sketch on the Fast Show, he even managed to turn Grenfell into a farce by going on TV and accusing the police of covering up the death toll.

 

My favourite ever though is still the time he accused the BBC of racism for asking if black or white smoke was going to emerge from the Vatican - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21764636

 

He genuinely thought it was a reference to skin colour lol

These idiots are so far removed from the reality normal people live in.

 

The last straw for me with Corbyn was not knowing who Ant and Dec are. 

 

Mental. 

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