The Tactics Thread - Part 2: The 4-3-3

[UniFox21]

Think this type of 433 may work well against Cardiff; as has been mentioned above, it gives us the opportunity to pin them back with our middle 3. Also gives us that physical presence against a fairly imposing Cardiff team. 

 

Will also give our full backs license to shoot forward, and gives a few targets in the box with Hamza and Ndidi regularly getting into the box

[Anglodanglo]

23 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

It's time for another Tactics thread!

 

Two things.

1 - What a great read.

2 - I bet you're fooking amazing on Football Manager

 

[baldeagle]

Great post and confirms what I said in the MOT thread that we originally set up as 4-3-3

[StriderHiryu]

1 hour ago, H.a.r.r.y said:

 

This is a very good video, despite spelling Leicester as "Liecester" multiple times .

 

I think the key take away from this video is that it forced Kevin De Bruyne to move wide to get on the ball instead of being free in the middle to orchestrate the game. In the 2-0 home defeat to Man City last season, KDB ran the show from start to finish and of course he scored against us in the cup too. I think Puel's tactics are a nod to both Chelsea's Jorginho and KDB and forcing those teams to play wider. The idea being that playing that way might give us a chance, but letting these players run the game gives us no chance. Of course KDB plays further up field than Jorginho so it's not exactly the same.

 

Another take away is the positioning of our team and ability to defend together as a team. This is something that I hope fans who see the team every week take a good look at, because there has been massive improvement here in the last 12 months. All 3 CM's were always within 10 yards of one another. They only push up to defend their zone when the ball gets to a certain area of the pitch. Additionally when we defend, look at our full backs, they are almost always in a straight horizontal line from one another despite being on the other side of the pitch. This takes hours on the training ground to perfect and is a challenge for young players as it takes match experience to learn properly.

 

Lastly though, I don't agree with calling our tactics a 451! That implies the 5 across the midfield are in a line, which they weren't as their positions were almost always textbook 433, as shown in the diagrams posted in the opening post. But whatever, I suppose that's like arguing about how American's pronounce "Tomato"  .

[Aleksz]

The 4-3-3 we played in both games were designed to match up both opponents like for like. The intention was often for the midfield to go man for man and cut off pass lanes. If you watch the Chelsea game back you'll notice That when Chelsea were looking to build from the back - Vardy would be covering the pass lane into Jorginho (a vital component of their build up). Against Man City we did the same thing but with our midfielders, I noticed there was numerous times before we switched to 4-2-3-1 that Hamza was looking over his shoulder for Bernardo Silva or De Bruyne, not to go and get tight to him, but to screen the pass into him. 

 

It was a masterclass from Puel over the two games, where he could use the same plan twice as both oppponents play the same 4-3-3 looking to play out from the back. 

 

I wouldnt expect to see it again against Cardiff. I would imagine it'll be back to 4-2-3-1 and Gray will come back in for one of the midfielders, hopefully Ndidi as Hamza deserves to keep his spot. Rightly so as Cardiff won't have the possession or the high line to make the same game plan effective.

[The Doctor]

1 hour ago, baldeagle said:

Great post and confirms what I said in the MOT thread that we originally set up as 4-3-3

What you argued was a load of pedantic nonsense. But I could point out on the screens it was listed as 4-5-1. In reality 4-3-3 and 4-5-1 are the same thing

[baldeagle]

13 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

What you argued was a load of pedantic nonsense. But I could point out on the screens it was listed as 4-5-1. In reality 4-3-3 and 4-5-1 are the same thing

What I argued was we set up as 4-3-3 not sure how that is nonsense

[The Doctor]

32 minutes ago, baldeagle said:

What I argued was we set up as 4-3-3 not sure how that is nonsense

Because you whined about how it's 4-3-3 not 4-5-1 when they're the same thing

[baldeagle]

1 minute ago, The Doctor said:

Because you whined about how it's 4-3-3 not 4-5-1 when they're the same thing

Wouldn’t class stating a fact as whining 

[Foxxed]

56 minutes ago, baldeagle said:

Wouldn’t class stating a fact as whining 

You whined the fact then!

[Fightforever]

15 hours ago, UniFox21 said:

Something has definitely happened behind the scenes with Silva. Either he simply isn't good enough or some other kinda fall out has happened 

Something was said about him performing well in training but not starting when the vardy drama happened I think its the clubs way of confirming that he's going back to portugal. Shame really expected him to be so much better being an international player.

Edited 28 December 2018 by Fightforever

[Hanan96]

8 hours ago, Anglodanglo said:

Two things.

1 - What a great read.

2 - I bet you're fooking amazing on Football Manager

 

Not surprised since strider had once work with Jardim, likely his assistant. 

6 hours ago, The Doctor said:

Because you whined about how it's 4-3-3 not 4-5-1 when they're the same thing

They are different things. 

[The Doctor]

3 hours ago, Hanan96 said:

. 

They are different things. 

No. Every 4-3-3 becomes a 4-5-1 off the ball, and with the ball every 4-5-1 becomes a 4-3-3

[Hanan96]

28 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

No. Every 4-3-3 becomes a 4-5-1 off the ball, and with the ball every 4-5-1 becomes a 4-3-3

No. The winger in 433 are marking the space and passing lane while 451 the winger will marking the opposition fullback.

 

In offense, 433 could have out and out winger, inside forward,  space investigator, and target men in wide areas

 

While 451 will either have tucked in wide midfielder, winger, or defensive version of winger which act as wing back in defense like Pullis stoke city. 

 

[The Doctor]

52 minutes ago, Hanan96 said:

No. The winger in 433 are marking the space and passing lane while 451 the winger will marking the opposition fullback.

 

In offense, 433 could have out and out winger, inside forward,  space investigator, and target men in wide areas

 

While 451 will either have tucked in wide midfielder, winger, or defensive version of winger which act as wing back in defense like Pullis stoke city. 

 

Well then we played 4-5-1 as shown on MOTDs punditry. But we also played 4-3-3. Probably because the only difference is how far forward the wide forwards are and that depends on whether you're in possession or not.

 

If you want to get really pedantic, we didn't play 4-3-3, we played a 2-1-4-3 because Mendy dropped back to a holding role while the fullbacks bombed forward and joined the attack (see the average position of Chilwell and Mendy vs Chelsea) 

 

 

But that would be pointless pedantry, a generic 4-5-1 and a generic 4-3-3 with wide players merge into each other depending on where the ball is

Edited 28 December 2018 by The Doctor

[Hanan96]

4 hours ago, The Doctor said:

Well then we played 4-5-1 as shown on MOTDs punditry. But we also played 4-3-3. Probably because the only difference is how far forward the wide forwards are and that depends on whether you're in possession or not.

 

If you want to get really pedantic, we didn't play 4-3-3, we played a 2-1-4-3 because Mendy dropped back to a holding role while the fullbacks bombed forward and joined the attack (see the average position of Chilwell and Mendy vs Chelsea) 

 

 

But that would be pointless pedantry, a generic 4-5-1 and a generic 4-3-3 with wide players merge into each other depending on where the ball is

Well if you are talking about what we are use, then we are likely using an asymmetric formation. Madisson act as left inside forward like 433 while Albrighton are defensive minded winger like 451

 

Then if you said its pointless about the paper formation , what matter is the appliance in the pitch,then I will be agree. In fact, even our 4231 are often not as static as 4231, especially when we have amartey Ricardo  on the right and Madisson in left with nacho as no 10 which become 3412 or assymetric 442 with the ball. 

[Stadt]

When the opposition backline have the ball it's a 433 but as soon as we're in our half it's 451. It's rare that a team's defensive shape is a true 433

[Foxxed]

6 hours ago, The Doctor said:

Well then we played 4-5-1 as shown on MOTDs punditry. But we also played 4-3-3. Probably because the only difference is how far forward the wide forwards are and that depends on whether you're in possession or not.

 

If you want to get really pedantic, we didn't play 4-3-3, we played a 2-1-4-3 because Mendy dropped back to a holding role while the fullbacks bombed forward and joined the attack (see the average position of Chilwell and Mendy vs Chelsea) 

 

 

But that would be pointless pedantry, a generic 4-5-1 and a generic 4-3-3 with wide players merge into each other depending on where the ball is

Interesting. Albrighton and Hamza are parked up with Ricardo. Whereas Maddison and Ndidi are relatively far from Chilwell, who's even further up the pitch than Ricardo. It's a testament to Chilwell's solid defensive work. Albrighton and Hamza are surely one reason why our right wing has looked more solid recently. And Mendy and Hamza are giving Morgan some great protection. I didn't realise Mendy was so far back protecting the centre halves. It's incredible since he's all over the pitch helping with an important pass.

 

 

Edited 28 December 2018 by Foxxed

[StriderHiryu]

We've played the 433 five times now:

 

vs Spurs at home. 0-2 loss.

vs Man City (Cup). 1-1. Lost on penalties.

vs Chelsea away. Won 1-0.

vs Man City at home. 2-1 win.

vs Everton away. 1-0 win.

 

Definitely a tactic well suited to playing possession based teams. It nullifies them and works to our counter attacking threat.

 

I really hope we use this tactic even in a game where we are expected to win. Defensively we look sound and whilst we don't create much, maybe we could create more if we have a lot more of the ball. The three of Hamza, Ndidi and Mendy work well as a unit.

[st albans fox]

16 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

We've played the 433 five times now:

 

vs Spurs at home. 0-2 loss.

vs Man City (Cup). 1-1. Lost on penalties.

vs Chelsea away. Won 1-0.

vs Man City at home. 2-1 win.

vs Everton away. 1-0 win.

 

Definitely a tactic well suited to playing possession based teams. It nullifies them and works to our counter attacking threat.

 

I really hope we use this tactic even in a game where we are expected to win. Defensively we look sound and whilst we don't create much, maybe we could create more if we have a lot more of the ball. The three of Hamza, Ndidi and Mendy work well as a unit.

It could be argue that this set up is a bit of a throw back to the 15/16 season where we plugged the middle and invited teams to come down the flanks and cross it in ....problem being we now need three midfielders to cover the Kante/drinkwater/Okazaki axis which leaves vards a bit more isolated  

[dyanmark]

Well said ST A- against Man City we allowed them to pick a pass to the wide players and was a bit of a worry but then doubled up on the winger allowed a lot of crosses which we seem comfortable to deal with .Very much like 15/16 where we spent the season doing just that.

Evans did well yesterday very solid and super positioning