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Whether Boris wins will obviously depend on many of those that haven't voted for him today seeing him as the better option against who is still in the running, I think he might well lose to Hunt or Gove, wouldn't be a surprise as the favouring in these votes rarely wins according to reports.

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5 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Got work and stuff to do today, but a few "devil's advocate" points in response to this interesting debate....

 

- You're giving massive power to the PM, effectively handing them most of the power of our cabinet govt. Most likely, you'd currently be handing that massive power to Boris. Maybe in future, if directly elected, it might be Corbyn, Farage, Beckham, Simon Cowell, Russell Brand... Your expert ministers would have some power but only within limits set by the all-powerful Boris, Branson, Robbie Williams or whoever

 

- Are you getting rid of cabinet govt? Presumably the PM is now effectively doing the job once done by the whole cabinet, setting overall policy priorities? If not, you'd still have the same issue re. lack of specialist expertise - you'd have some top expert on transport sitting in cabinet contributing to decisions about N. Ireland, defence, social security or whatever. You'd also risk having individual ministers pulling in opposite directions: e.g. a foreign secretary prioritising intelligence & anti-terrorism & a defence secretary spending her budget on boosting the nuclear deterrent.

 

- The civil service is supposed to provide the continuity & specialist expertise within particular departments. They're then supposed to do the bidding of the minister who sets the policy agenda: e.g. the transport minister tells them he wants to get more people off the road and into trains, but needs more/quicker trains, cheaper fares, better commuter parking at stations & has a budget of £x. The civil servants then have the expertise to advise on options for achieving those goals, having spent years or sometimes a whole career working in that department. Of course, a lot of highly-paid consultants also contribute such expertise these days, for better or worse.

 

- How will the public have the slightest clue who is really an expert in a particular field and who is a bullshitter? These days, a lot of voters see experts as an enemy elite that must be crushed by the people. Even most of those who are not so extreme do not know enough to judge on most subjects.....just think of the level of opinions that lots of people (on both sides) express about Brexit, THE big issue of the day. If most people are that clueless about the issue of the day, how well equipped will they be to decide who's a good potential minister for N. Ireland, defence or social security? I wouldn't feel well qualified for that myself, and I'm someone who pays a lot of attention to politics. Most people don't.

 

- If you're switching to directly-elected PM/ministers, what rules will there be for campaigning and funding of campaigns? If they're not strictly regulated, the obvious risk is that a lot of media-friendly charlatans win election by making impossible promises - or that the only people capable of winning office are those backed by super-wealthy individuals and corporations... 

Alf, I will respond to this but I’m gonna wait till I’m not 6 pints in at a funeral.

 

I do grasp the issues with technocratic approach but something needs to give from our current system and I’d like people running areas of oversight who actually have skills and experience in the discipline.

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45 minutes ago, davieG said:

Whether Boris wins will obviously depend on many of those that haven't voted for him today seeing him as the better option against who is still in the running, I think he might well lose to Hunt or Gove, wouldn't be a surprise as the favouring in these votes rarely wins according to reports.

 

The history of Tory leadership elections if for the favourite not to win, but this might be the exception - not least because of the format of the election.

 

It ends up with the party membership voting on the 2 candidates most popular among MPs - and Boris would have to LOSE votes as the contest goes on to not be in the top 2.

He got 114 out of 313 today so if he just stayed on 114, it is arithmetically impossible for 2 opponents to beat him....and he's by far the favoured candidate of the party membership.

 

He could still lose, of course. But I can see only 2 ways of that happening.....

- He does/says something horrendous during the campaign, or there's some horrendous revelation about him, so he alienates some of his support

- Some other candidate is so massively impressive that they win over the party members....given the centrality of Brexit, it would almost certainly have to be another Hard Brexiteer.

......Not impossible, but a long shot. I see the bookies now have him at odds of about 1-5 on to win....

  

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13 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

Technically we don’t vote for a Prime Minister - we elect MPs to represent our constituency’s interests in parliament, who are generally members of a political party. The party with the most seats wins and its leader can form a government, either with its own party if they’re first past the post, or in a coalition. 

 

Personally I think we should do away with the system altogether and become an anarcho syndicalist commune where we all just take it in turns to act as a sort of executive office for the week. 

Look, just because some moistened bint...

 

Yeah, I know that's how it works, but the figurehead leader strongly affects how people perceive their party.

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5 hours ago, David Guiza said:

I still can't get over the fact that people think we live in an 'overly PC world (not that one)' and yet Boris is nailed on to become the next PM of Great Britain. A man who has, among other things, done and said the following:-

 

  • Made a joke about "dead bodies" getting in the way of business investment in Libya. 
  • Risk the safety of a British charity worker in Iran when speaking publicly about her 'teaching journalism.
  • Described Africa as a country.
  • Compared a traditional Maori greeting to a Glasgow pub brawl.
  • Compared Francios Hollande to a prisoner of war guard.
  • Recited a colonial era poem at a temple.

That's just whilst he was foreign secretary. I know some people are Boris hipsters though, and very much prefer his old stuff and consider his new stuff too mainstream, so how about:-

 

  • Comparing Muslim women to letter boxes.
  • Saying that Obama was 'part-Kenyan' with a built in dislike of Britain due to his ancestry. 
  • Using the term 'piccaninnies' in his Telegraphic column.
  • Attended a bizarre racist event prior to the 2017 elections.
  • Suggested black people have lower IQs due to their race.
  • Suggested we and France colonised Africa again. 

 

Still praying that he implodes. 

 

It is totally amazing. I can only assume that the true majority in England are racist, sexist, little Englander, idiots.

 

 

5 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Got work and stuff to do today, but a few "devil's advocate" points in response to this interesting debate....

 

- You're giving massive power to the PM, effectively handing them most of the power of our cabinet govt. Most likely, you'd currently be handing that massive power to Boris. Maybe in future, if directly elected, it might be Corbyn, Farage, Beckham, Simon Cowell, Russell Brand... Your expert ministers would have some power but only within limits set by the all-powerful Boris, Branson, Robbie Williams or whoever

 

- Are you getting rid of cabinet govt? Presumably the PM is now effectively doing the job once done by the whole cabinet, setting overall policy priorities? If not, you'd still have the same issue re. lack of specialist expertise - you'd have some top expert on transport sitting in cabinet contributing to decisions about N. Ireland, defence, social security or whatever. You'd also risk having individual ministers pulling in opposite directions: e.g. a foreign secretary prioritising intelligence & anti-terrorism & a defence secretary spending her budget on boosting the nuclear deterrent.

 

- The civil service is supposed to provide the continuity & specialist expertise within particular departments. They're then supposed to do the bidding of the minister who sets the policy agenda: e.g. the transport minister tells them he wants to get more people off the road and into trains, but needs more/quicker trains, cheaper fares, better commuter parking at stations & has a budget of £x. The civil servants then have the expertise to advise on options for achieving those goals, having spent years or sometimes a whole career working in that department. Of course, a lot of highly-paid consultants also contribute such expertise these days, for better or worse.

 

- How will the public have the slightest clue who is really an expert in a particular field and who is a bullshitter? These days, a lot of voters see experts as an enemy elite that must be crushed by the people. Even most of those who are not so extreme do not know enough to judge on most subjects.....just think of the level of opinions that lots of people (on both sides) express about Brexit, THE big issue of the day. If most people are that clueless about the issue of the day, how well equipped will they be to decide who's a good potential minister for N. Ireland, defence or social security? I wouldn't feel well qualified for that myself, and I'm someone who pays a lot of attention to politics. Most people don't.

 

- If you're switching to directly-elected PM/ministers, what rules will there be for campaigning and funding of campaigns? If they're not strictly regulated, the obvious risk is that a lot of media-friendly charlatans win election by making impossible promises - or that the only people capable of winning office are those backed by super-wealthy individuals and corporations... 

Agree with everything - get ready to be insulted by Swanny (not)

 

 

5 hours ago, Buce said:

 

I think you might be surprised - and horrified - at how much of that resonates with an awful lot of people. Racist views never really went away, it just became socially unacceptable to espouse them. But it's back in fashion now - suddenly it's ok to hate Muslims (coz they blow-up people, right?) and once you accept it of one demographic, the brakes are off. Bozo is our Trump and appeals to the same kind of people.

 

I think you are right. The views are clearly there and not hidden very well beneath the surface.

 

 

5 hours ago, David Guiza said:

I think you're right, plus the fact that he works so hard to be this bumbling funny guy in the media and people buy into that. So many people think he's this harmless buffoon, and they are half right I guess. He, like Trump, does a great impression of being the every man and I think people really gobble that up. Farage does it too, manages to convince masses of poor, working class, people that he's the same as them and convinces them to ignore his merchant banking history etc.  

 

All of the candidates have flaws, of course, but somebody like Rory Stewart seems a far more sensible and rational option. I'd even take Jeremy Hunt over Boris and possibly even Gove (felt a bit of sick in my mouth just typing that). 

Again agree completely.

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9 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

Alf, I will respond to this but I’m gonna wait till I’m not 6 pints in at a funeral.

 

I do grasp the issues with technocratic approach but something needs to give from our current system and I’d like people running areas of oversight who actually have skills and experience in the discipline.

 

Sounds a good funeral! 

 

I wasn't having a go at you, btw. Just trying to fuel the debate. Something needs to give, I agree. Unfortunately, just now it seems like a descent into populism, mayhem and the crumbling of democracy ...

 

A technocratic idea that I like: replace the House of Lords with a House of Experts. That way, democratic politics would still prevail in the Commons & Govt, but a range of experts could exercise the oversight that the Lords is supposed to provide.

 

Clear the second chamber of most of the political appointees, retired politicians, hereditary peers, bishops etc.

Replace them with business people, trade unionists, health & education professionals, legal experts, community representatives, military/security experts, claimants' representatives, police representatives, experienced diplomats, local/devolved govt. etc.

Such people could be elected or appointed by relevant bodies (CBI, TUC, police service, armed forces, councils, foreign office etc.) but no longer be employed by them, so as to ensure independence.

The elected politicians would still set the political agenda & be democratically accountable, but the Chamber of Experts could make sure their legislation was sane and practical. Could involve them in select committees, too.

 

I should probably put that idea in the "Unpopular Opinions" thread, though, as we've "all had enough of experts now", haven't we?! :D

I haven't. I want more experts/technocrats - just under democratic control & as part of a balanced, functional govt.

 

Don't get rat-arsed and fall into the grave, will you? :ph34r:

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So with 7 candidates left there are no women left. 66% of those eliminated in the first round are women. Will the non-whites be eliminated in the second round. We need Boris to get on the TV and be questioned so that he can eliminate himself, otherwise the leadership is his and a NO deal brexit is Britains.

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Amazed at the amount of support for Boris in the party, unless he does something absolutely ridiculous he's the next Prime Minister.

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6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Amazed at the amount of support for Boris in the party, unless he does something absolutely ridiculous he's the next Prime Minister.

I’m frightened.

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15 minutes ago, MattP said:

Amazed at the amount of support for Boris in the party, unless he does something absolutely ridiculous he's the next Prime Minister.

There's still time!:D

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20 minutes ago, MattP said:

Amazed at the amount of support for Boris in the party, unless he does something absolutely ridiculous he's the next Prime Minister.

 

9c25061fa9ca1917f23017cfe86c0ebc.jpg

 

 

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1 hour ago, MattP said:

Amazed at the amount of support for Boris in the party, unless he does something absolutely ridiculous he's the next Prime Minister.

I'm not sure it even matters, he's said and done so many ridiculous things before, he's just one of these people that seemingly can do no wrong even when he does, bit like Farage...although that's a bit of a tenuis comparison.

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35 minutes ago, Buce said:

Not going to happen whoever is PM.

 

Brexit has broken this country and the consequences will last for generations until our children take us back in.

Optimistic to say the least to think the EU will be there in decades. 

 

It will have to have had serious reform if it is.

Edited by MattP

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7 hours ago, David Guiza said:

I think you're right, plus the fact that he works so hard to be this bumbling funny guy in the media and people buy into that. So many people think he's this harmless buffoon, and they are half right I guess. He, like Trump, does a great impression of being the every man and I think people really gobble that up. Farage does it too, manages to convince masses of poor, working class, people that he's the same as them and convinces them to ignore his merchant banking history etc.  

It's not right, just because you vote for Boris doesn't mean you hate people of a different race, just means you think the Tories are best placed to run the country from the choices avaliable. 

 

Just like 40% of the population voting Labour last time doesn't mean 40% of the population is antisemitic. 

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A lot of votes for Boris will surely be based on his Brexit stance and nothing else.To me he seems like one of the most in favour of no deal.

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3 hours ago, MattP said:

Amazed at the amount of support for Boris in the party, unless he does something absolutely ridiculous he's the next Prime Minister.

As a right leaning person, why do you think that is?

 

As a lefty, I have absolutely no idea how anyone can think that Boris is the solution to this mess.

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I think Boris as PM is just an itch this country has to scratch. I'm don't like it, but its been building for so long, its almost like it has to happen, or it'll never go away. Hopefully it'll be like a reset button, we'll see how bad it is, see how ridiculous we've become, and it'll snap us out of this mess.

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Change UK has applied to the Electoral Commission to change its name following a dispute with the petitions website Change.org.

The party has written to the elections watchdog asking to be renamed The Independent Group for Change.

It says Change.org is threatening to sue its MPs unless the party alters its name by 15 June.

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28 minutes ago, Lionator said:

As a right leaning person, why do you think that is?

 

As a lefty, I have absolutely no idea how anyone can think that Boris is the solution to this mess.

Probably because on the evidence we have he's a proven vote winner, I can't think of any other reason aside from him coming across as a lovable rogue. Weirdly one of my left wing mates from Lancaster messaged me today and he's excited about PM Boris - he's a Labour voter. 

 

I suppose it's the same for me regarding the other side though, I mean I see Corbyn as an absolute joke with no solution to anything except bribery with money he doesn't have, yet 40% of the country voted for him to run it.

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