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1 hour ago, hejammy said:

It's an absolute travasty, horrible to think people like this exist. 

 

There are active members of this forum however,  who when something like this happens and it's an 'Islamic terrorist' are very very vocal however have not said a word with regards to today's events...says a lot really :(

I agree it's sad but it's a forum people have a opinion they have a right to what they want to post or not want to to post

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For anyone not an extremely nerdy millennial that doesn't have a clue what the **** is going on and who is extremely bemused by the fact the Christchurch shooter isn't some middle aged redneck in a yute, this is a pretty informative article. 

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/science-tech/internet/2019/03/christchurch-new-zealand-shooter-pewdiepie-youtube-facebook-video-shows-we-need-take-online-radicalisation

 

Appreciate the New Statesman might not be everyone's favourite source but it gives a pretty simple overview of / introduction to the various subcultures and websites you're hearing about. 

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43 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

No and no and that's exactly my point, Buce. I'm not denying that there is a thing called the dark Web and it may well be full of very scary people. 

 

But my point is that the vast majority of these gamergate, alt right radicals are rife on the good old fashioned, common or garden, regular Internet. 

 

There are incel subreddits disguised as other common topics where young white men are actively discussing raping  and murdering women and children in graphic detail and legitimising it by inventing a subculture in which they are the victims. Reddit take them down, but then they just pop back up. 

 

There are gamergate imageboards discussing white power and ethnic cleansing where slogans like this guy's "remove kebab", originally coming from EU4 ffs, a strategy game, are popularised as racist memes. 

 

They war against "SJW cucks", using swatting, harrasment, hacking etc to victimise perceived leftists egalitarians. 

 

Again, these imageboards eventually get taken down by their providers but they'll just go and make a new one with a different domain suffix and start again. 

 

The dark Web is irrelevant, you don't NEED a dark web, most of these kids wouldn't have a clue how to even get on to it, they're so brazen they don't care. 

What on earth does any of this mean? Am I the only one oblivious to all this gamer muck?

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3 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

What on earth does any of this mean? Am I the only one oblivious to all this gamer muck?

 

No, most people are oblivious except millennial gamer / internet nerds and that's sort of the problem. The closest most people get to this lot are when a fight breaks out on twitter between some feminist claiming some film or TV show is offensive and then a swarm of trolls call her a whore or a slut or a feminazi. 

 

You may have heard a little bit about the new Captain Marvel film getting trolled on Rotten Tomatoes, the film review website, which changed its policy on voting because it was getting mass down voted by people who hadn't even seen it yet. 

 

Why? Because the lead actress, Brie Larson, had the audacity to say that the film wasn't "only" made for white men and because the lead character is a strong female super hero who may well be the most powerful in the MCU. 

 

That's just scratching the surface but it's the closest most people come to hearing about gamergate, 8chan, incels, and young white collar white supremacy because its hidden away merged and intertwined with "gamer" culture. 

 

That's one of the things that's going to be annoying over the next few weeks, it's only a matter of time before someone starts blaming computer games instead of looking at why these guys feel so alienated and bitter in the first place. 

 

Get yourself on Wikipedia and read up a bit on 8chan and "gamergate."

 

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Christchurch and the Canterbury area is one of my favourite places on the planet. Still reeling from the shock the unexpected severity of the natural disaster eight years ago such mindless wanton violence and hatred is suddenly unleashed upon a similarly defenceless city. Difference being, nature is indifferent and does not discriminate. 

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Couldn’t help watch the footage out of morbid curiosity. Absolutely horrifying. He must have killed before? I don’t get how you can do calmly kill 40 people.

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You're doing a sterling job with the information here @Finnegan - for those familiar with the cesspits where blokes like the shooter hang out it's often easy to forget that the wider world doesn't have much of an idea about what they are and what they're about.

 

That certain areas of "gamer" (and I use that term loosely) communities and white supremacist BS have become entangled is a matter of extreme concern.

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35 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

No, most people are oblivious except millennial gamer / internet nerds and that's sort of the problem. The closest most people get to this lot are when a fight breaks out on twitter between some feminist claiming some film or TV show is offensive and then a swarm of trolls call her a whore or a slut or a feminazi. 

 

You may have heard a little bit about the new Captain Marvel film getting trolled on Rotten Tomatoes, the film review website, which changed its policy on voting because it was getting mass down voted by people who hadn't even seen it yet. 

 

Why? Because the lead actress, Brie Larson, had the audacity to say that the film wasn't "only" made for white men and because the lead character is a strong female super hero who may well be the most powerful in the MCU. 

 

That's just scratching the surface but it's the closest most people come to hearing about gamergate, 8chan, incels, and young white collar white supremacy because its hidden away merged and intertwined with "gamer" culture. 

 

That's one of the things that's going to be annoying over the next few weeks, it's only a matter of time before someone starts blaming computer games instead of looking at why these guys feel so alienated and bitter in the first place. 

 

Get yourself on Wikipedia and read up a bit on 8chan and "gamergate."

 

Well that was an educational read. And scary and worrying and a whole different world to what I know.

 

Just 15 minutes of reading Wiki and clicking through on the different words I'd never heard of has freaked me out a bit. All sorts of weird shit on there.

 

I'd rather be in denial not know about all these sub cultures, imageboards and activism I think. 

 

My young boy's getting seriously into gaming now and is really curious so how the fvck do I stop him disappearing down all these rabbit holes?

 

I'm really concerned that there's a whole internet out there that I didn't know existed and I don't want my kids to be exposed to it.

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I got kind of a window into a similar world about four years ago when I was living in Bulgaria. I had started visiting and documenting medieval Orthodox churches and monasteries in remote areas and organised a couple of articles and exhibitions. This brought me into contact with people adding me on facebook who obviously felt because I was interested in Christian architecture I hated Muslims. This was around the time of the 'migrant crisis' in 2015 and their pages and the pages of people who commented on their statuses were full of many dubious and sometimes extremely violent content about Muslims in Europe, often posted in the ironic shitposting style described in the article above. They weren't all grizzled old racists out in the village, many were young, uni-educated guys some of whom lived in Western European cities. They had contacts all over Europe and elsewhere, mostly males who all shared similar viewpoints on the usual issues - immigration, politics, women, etc. I read today that the killer in NZ had visited Bulgaria and other E European countries and met up with a lot of alt-right groups, had written references to historical events in Europe on his gun and played Serbian nationalist music in his car on the way to the shooting.

 

Obviously it goes without saying that it is a massive leap to go from posting 'remove kebab' to shooting up a mosque but it is terrifying just how banal this kind of stuff has become and just how many young males buy into it. Many of us are probably members of forums or groups where very dubious stuff gets posted. The internet didn't create this problem but it's provided an extremely fertile breeding ground for far-right psychopathy. A lot of the World seems to be getting its fascist on at the moment and I believe we will see a similar event in Europe some time soon. 

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10 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

No and no and that's exactly my point, Buce. I'm not denying that there is a thing called the dark Web and it may well be full of very scary people. 

 

But my point is that the vast majority of these gamergate, alt right radicals are rife on the good old fashioned, common or garden, regular Internet. 

 

There are incel subreddits disguised as other common topics where young white men are actively discussing raping  and murdering women and children in graphic detail and legitimising it by inventing a subculture in which they are the victims. Reddit take them down, but then they just pop back up. 

 

There are gamergate imageboards discussing white power and ethnic cleansing where slogans like this guy's "remove kebab", originally coming from EU4 ffs, a strategy game, are popularised as racist memes. 

 

They war against "SJW cucks", using swatting, harrasment, hacking etc to victimise perceived leftists egalitarians. 

 

Again, these imageboards eventually get taken down by their providers but they'll just go and make a new one with a different domain suffix and start again. 

 

The dark Web is irrelevant, you don't NEED a dark web, most of these kids wouldn't have a clue how to even get on to it, they're so brazen they don't care. 

8

 

So, you've never accessed it, you don't know anyone else who has, yet you feel qualified to say what is and isn't on it and dismiss it as irrelevant? :blink:

 

I don't doubt for one moment that the unsavoury stuff you've discussed appears on the 'regular' Web forums, but to assume therefore that it doesn't appear elsewhere is uninformed and naive, as is the idea that tech-savvy kids wouldn't know how to access it - it's not esoteric knowledge, there's even a wickihow. 4Chan and similar sites also have a presence on the DW - it's where the really dangerous go people go when they want to go beyond talking about it without attracting attention from the authorities. I'm not going to post links on here - that would be irresponsible - but if you're interested enough to educate yourself, a little creative googling will find site lists of what's really on the DW, not what exists in popular belief.

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12 hours ago, hejammy said:

It's an absolute travasty, horrible to think people like this exist. 

 

There are active members of this forum however,  who when something like this happens and it's an 'Islamic terrorist' are very very vocal however have not said a word with regards to today's events...says a lot really :(

Very true and exactly what I was thinking, I await certain posters turning up on this thread...no sign yet though.

 

Truly terrible day for new Zealand and hope they pull together and unite against this hatred, I'm sure they will, I thought the NZ PM speech after the attacks was very good especially about the immigrants there.

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9 hours ago, Finnegan said:

Sorry in advance - this is gonna be a proper essay post. 

 

I've been gaming my whole life, @Izzy and everyone knows I'm an "SJW feminazi Liberal cuck" so you're alright there.

 

"Gamer" is far more than a guy who plays games. I probably commit on average anywhere between two and six hours a day to computer games, depending on my mood and the day of the week. It's been my main source of recreation since I was about 10.

 

But not only do I not self identify as a gamer, a gamer wouldn't consider me one either. 

 

Gamer subculture started taking off as Internet forums started becoming popularised a couple decades ago and right from early on, "trolling" was a big part of this. It started in the games themselves, in early multiplayer games like EverQuest, Ultima Online, etc people would deliberately act in antisocial ways in order to be dicks to each other. 

 

Games were extremely popular (and remain so) as a form of escapism to poorly socially adjusted kids who are bulleyed AF and respond in kind by lashing out anonymously on the Internet. So trolls and keyboard warriors were born. 

 

It expanded in to imageboard sites, forums and later social media platforms and has increasingly evolved over the years. Whatever the hot topic of the day, gamer trolls would take up the contrary perspective largely just to wind people up. The more "equality" becomes a hot topic on twitter, the more these kids will thrash against it largely just to be dicks. These aren't the "it's political correctness gone mad!" middle aged racists, these are kids just hating on anything black, gay or female because it's the issues of the day and they want to piss people off. 

 

It's important that you remember that this is ultimately the end goal. There's an article I'm going to link at the bottom of this post that talks in great detail about the Christchurch killer's manifesto and how it's almost a red herring. 

 

See, to a troll, whilst they may actually be racist or sexist or homophobic, what's actually important above all else is just getting a rise out of people, being anti social, being as offensive as possible. 

 

4chan and 8chan were so easily infiltrated by REAL White supremacists because they were already full of hate content posted by kids who probably didn't even believe it but would say the most extremely offensive shit, post images of cartoon child rape and violence just to be as ****ing controversial and offensive as they could. 

 

In many ways, the Christchurch killer is almost less a fundamentalist white supremacist and more like some kind of Clockwork Orange nihilist. 

 

That's what a lot of these gamers are, above all else, disenfranchised nihilists, social rejects, angry young white males lashing out in their own mixed language of memes, in jokes, obscure references and slang. They want you to be as offended as possible by their behaviour, whether they're threatening rape or murder or necrophilia or paedophilia, they don't care as long as it upsets you. That's the end goal. Then when you do get upset, they laugh in your face because you can't take their "joke."

 

I don't doubt that the Christchurch killer clearly has been indoctrinated in to a far right belief system but he'll have been seduced to that position easily from having started as just a frustrated troll. His politics are nowhere near as simple as, say, the KKK and that's why he represents a far more terrifying threat. 

 

 

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of-world/2019/03/15/shitposting-inspirational-terrorism-and-the-christchurch-mosque-massacre/

 

As for how you protect your son? Just raise him well. Show him love, teach him to love himself, promote his self esteem, let him know there's nothing pussy or weak about having feelings, get him to socialise offline, but don't force him. Promote him to have healthy relationships and just do your best to raise a nice, well adjusted kid. 

 

You don't become some alt right, gamergate troll just because you play games. You become that way because your life moulds you as such. 

 

And just one final word - plenty of people that identify as gamers are normal, decent, tidy folk who just happen to be a bit nerdy. They'll probably get demonised as hell over the next few weeks and they don't deserve that. Even most of the ones that identify as being part of gamergate or 4chan or being incel or whatever else are largely harmless. There's a big difference between being a troll and being a murderer and I don't quite mean to muddle the two entirely. 

 

But today's shooting wasn't exactly the first time these subcultures have caused deaths it's just the most high profile to date. We all need to educate ourselves a little in what we're dealing with. 

 

 

:appl:

 

That single post has taught me so much about something I really didn’t know existed. You should write a book mate!! 

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11 hours ago, Dr The Singh said:

I agree it's sad but it's a forum people have a opinion they have a right to what they want to post or not want to to post

So we can take the same thought process when the members in question post things like 'the Muslim community should all come out and condemn this terrorist attack' or 'the Muslim community need to be vocal and eliminate the extremist from their community' etc etc. Are they not entitled to 'post' or 'not post'? A terrorist attack is a terrorist attack and if you are against violence and hatred of this kind then the colour, background, breed, sex or race of the perpetrator should have no baring. 

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It's the approval of politicians that legitimise their actions. 

 

The fact that Trump tweeted breitbart shows that he fully supports this massacre. As does farage etc.

 

You tube and Facebook are complicit too as are the daily mail. The daily mail even had it on their website.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

So, you've never accessed it, you don't know anyone else who has, yet you feel qualified to say what is and isn't on it and dismiss it as irrelevant? :blink:

 

I don't doubt for one moment that the unsavoury stuff you've discussed appears on the 'regular' Web forums, but to assume therefore that it doesn't appear elsewhere is uninformed and naive, as is the idea that tech-savvy kids wouldn't know how to access it - it's not esoteric knowledge, there's even a wickihow. 4Chan and similar sites also have a presence on the DW - it's where the really dangerous go people go when they want to go beyond talking about it without attracting attention from the authorities. I'm not going to post links on here - that would be irresponsible - but if you're interested enough to educate yourself, a little creative googling will find site lists of what's really on the DW, not what exists in popular belief.

 

Ugh. I just wrote a massive rant in response to you and deleted it at the last minute. 

 

Think what you want, Buce, I don't care and arguing over it right now is just distasteful as ****. 

 

You're missing the point on such a spectacular level I don't know if you're doing it deliberately just to argue with me or because you really don't see. 

 

Between the posts I've put in here and the articles I've linked, I don't know how else to make my point anymore clearly. 

 

Peace out mate. Godspeed. 

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7 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Ugh. I just wrote a massive rant in response to you and deleted it at the last minute. 

 

Think what you want, Buce, I don't care and arguing over it right now is just distasteful as ****. 

 

You're missing the point on such a spectacular level I don't know if you're doing it deliberately just to argue with me or because you really don't see. 

 

Between the posts I've put in here and the articles I've linked, I don't know how else to make my point anymore clearly. 

 

Peace out mate. Godspeed. 

 

Actually, you're the one arguing with me by arrogantly dismissing what I said on a subject that you - by your own admission - know nothing about.

 

I, on the other hand, have accepted and understood all of your very enlightening posts on gamer sub-culture.

 

Have a good day.

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Kids get onto the dark web with no difficulty, the only thing stopping any of us from accessing it is a lack of will to do so.  I'm sure everybody on this site could be browsing through pages of mail order class As in about half an hour if so inclined.  The problem isn't the dark web.  Nor is it Pewdiepie, videogames, meme culture or any of that bollocks, these are all things that people have proven themselves capable of enjoying without turning into sociopathic idiots an immeasurable number of times.  The problem is far less tangible than that unfortunately, it's something etched into the core of a society where it's normal for politicians to spread disinformation and encourage ill-will towards specific ethno groups.  We'll blame the internet and technology and probably even youth culture, but in reality it's the elders who have encouraged an influenceable attention-starved idiot with years of rhetoric and sustained refusal by powerful figures to condemn the trains of thought that have encouraged this guy.

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11 hours ago, Finnegan said:

Sorry in advance - this is gonna be a proper essay post. 

 

I've been gaming my whole life, @Izzy and everyone knows I'm an "SJW feminazi Liberal cuck" so you're alright there.

 

"Gamer" is far more than a guy who plays games. I probably commit on average anywhere between two and six hours a day to computer games, depending on my mood and the day of the week. It's been my main source of recreation since I was about 10.

 

But not only do I not self identify as a gamer, a gamer wouldn't consider me one either. 

 

Gamer subculture started taking off as Internet forums started becoming popularised a couple decades ago and right from early on, "trolling" was a big part of this. It started in the games themselves, in early multiplayer games like EverQuest, Ultima Online, etc people would deliberately act in antisocial ways in order to be dicks to each other. 

 

Games were extremely popular (and remain so) as a form of escapism to poorly socially adjusted kids who are bulleyed AF and respond in kind by lashing out anonymously on the Internet. So trolls and keyboard warriors were born. 

 

It expanded in to imageboard sites, forums and later social media platforms and has increasingly evolved over the years. Whatever the hot topic of the day, gamer trolls would take up the contrary perspective largely just to wind people up. The more "equality" becomes a hot topic on twitter, the more these kids will thrash against it largely just to be dicks. These aren't the "it's political correctness gone mad!" middle aged racists, these are kids just hating on anything black, gay or female because it's the issues of the day and they want to piss people off. 

 

It's important that you remember that this is ultimately the end goal. There's an article I'm going to link at the bottom of this post that talks in great detail about the Christchurch killer's manifesto and how it's almost a red herring. 

 

See, to a troll, whilst they may actually be racist or sexist or homophobic, what's actually important above all else is just getting a rise out of people, being anti social, being as offensive as possible. 

 

4chan and 8chan were so easily infiltrated by REAL White supremacists because they were already full of hate content posted by kids who probably didn't even believe it but would say the most extremely offensive shit, post images of cartoon child rape and violence just to be as ****ing controversial and offensive as they could. 

 

In many ways, the Christchurch killer is almost less a fundamentalist white supremacist and more like some kind of Clockwork Orange nihilist. 

 

That's what a lot of these gamers are, above all else, disenfranchised nihilists, social rejects, angry young white males lashing out in their own mixed language of memes, in jokes, obscure references and slang. They want you to be as offended as possible by their behaviour, whether they're threatening rape or murder or necrophilia or paedophilia, they don't care as long as it upsets you. That's the end goal. Then when you do get upset, they laugh in your face because you can't take their "joke."

 

I don't doubt that the Christchurch killer clearly has been indoctrinated in to a far right belief system but he'll have been seduced to that position easily from having started as just a frustrated troll. His politics are nowhere near as simple as, say, the KKK and that's why he represents a far more terrifying threat. 

 

 

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of-world/2019/03/15/shitposting-inspirational-terrorism-and-the-christchurch-mosque-massacre/

 

As for how you protect your son? Just raise him well. Show him love, teach him to love himself, promote his self esteem, let him know there's nothing pussy or weak about having feelings, get him to socialise offline, but don't force him. Promote him to have healthy relationships and just do your best to raise a nice, well adjusted kid. 

 

You don't become some alt right, gamergate troll just because you play games. You become that way because your life moulds you as such. 

 

And just one final word - plenty of people that identify as gamers are normal, decent, tidy folk who just happen to be a bit nerdy. They'll probably get demonised as hell over the next few weeks and they don't deserve that. Even most of the ones that identify as being part of gamergate or 4chan or being incel or whatever else are largely harmless. There's a big difference between being a troll and being a murderer and I don't quite mean to muddle the two entirely. 

 

But today's shooting wasn't exactly the first time these subcultures have caused deaths it's just the most high profile to date. We all need to educate ourselves a little in what we're dealing with. 

 

Thanks Finn. So much stuff that I didn’t know about and also a lot I still don’t understand. I’d heard of shitposting a little bit but that’s about it. How much of this stuff is just innocent little knobheads being twats in their mum’s basement and how much of it is actually quite sinister? And what’s this handgesture all about?! 

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9 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Kids get onto the dark web with no difficulty, 

 

Sure but they don't need to, Carl, to access a near endless supply of hate groups and almost entirely uncensored communities which is the point Buce seemed to deliberately be missing. Absolutely nowhere have I commented what is or isn't on the dark web. 

 

It's just that what's alarming and what's relevant to this case is how much of it was right under our noses all along and has been for years. Plenty of it on the biggest and most popular mainstream social media networks in the world. 

 

When Jon the Hat talked about banning these communities and Buce first mentioned the dark web, my point was that this killer had been using publicly easily, readily available domains and that people like him will continue to do so and these sites will simply upsticks and move to a new provider every time they're taken down. 

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10 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Thanks Finn. So much stuff that I didn’t know about and also a lot I still don’t understand. I’d heard of shitposting a little bit but that’s about it. How much of this stuff is just innocent little knobheads being twats in their mum’s basement and how much of it is actually quite sinister? And what’s this handgesture all about?! 

 

That's the problem really isn't it, how do you know? When millions of kids on the Internet are sending rape or murder threats, how do you know who or what to take seriously? 

 

I don't think I'm qualified to answer that really, I doubt anyone on foxestalk is. 

 

I do think awareness plays a big part. The irony of this guy's campaign is that whilst he's no doubt going to be an inspiration to plenty of others just like Breivik was an inspiration to him, he'd also going to shine a huge big lamp on the unlit corners of the Internet that get so frequently ignored. 

 

He'll do just as much, if not more for public awareness against his kind then he'll ever do for his "cause." 

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1 minute ago, Finnegan said:

 

Sure but they don't need to, Carl, to access a near endless supply of hate groups and almost entirely uncensored communities which is the point Buce seemed to deliberately be missing. Absolutely nowhere have I commented what is or isn't on the dark web. 

 

It's just that what's alarming and what's relevant to this case is how much of it was right under our noses all along and has been for years. Plenty of it on the biggest and most popular mainstream social media networks in the world. 

 

When Jon the Hat talked about banning these communities and Buce first mentioned the dark web, my point was that this killer had been using publicly easily, readily available domains and that people like him will continue to do so and these sites will simply upsticks and move to a new provider every time they're taken down. 

You're right, there's no way to combat it by attacking the sites these people encourage each other on, a new platform will always arise.  The problem is that these people exist in the first place, how do you solve society so that we stop pushing kids like him to believe the ridiculous things he does?

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