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24 minutes ago, Sampson said:

I'm comparing him to heskey and Joachim in this thread because in the past 2 days we've had posts saying "Barnes is our best/most exciting academy product since..." for both Heskey and Joachim. It was as a response from that 

 

And I was saying Barnes is clearly more constantly better and it's only really by nostalgia you can hold up Heskey or Joachim as still being better. I'm not using it to attack Heskey, I'm using it to say people still don't seem to realise just how good the players of the past 5-6 years in our in relation to players from our history is

 

We're talking about 2 different things - I'm not talking about how iconic or well loved a player is at all- that naturally comes from the relative context of where the club was at at the time. Most of us love and remember Lloyd Dyer way more than Demarai Gray, I'm not sure you can say he was a better player though.

 

I completely understand why people romanticise players from the past as there are players who were great in the context of those eras and I'm not saying anyone should not still love these players - but when you're talking about the best players and people still talk about inconsistent mid-table or Second Division players as if they're better than a player like Barnes that's clearly just nostalgia, but more than that- I think it's a lack of recognition of just how consistently good our players from the past 5-6 years are/have been in the context of our history.

 

It's the same with Steve Walsh. You get plenty on here saying he was better than Morgan, Huth; Evans or Soyuncu. I loved Walsh, he was here for years, he had iconic moments, I totally get why people love him and romanticise him - because there's more to being loved at a club than ability. But in terms of ability, he clearly wasn't as consistently ood as the likes of Morgan,Huth, Evans or Soyuncu at their peaks. To me, that's not talking Walsh down, that's talking Morgan, Huth, Evans and Soyuncu down - and when people say Barnes is our best/most exciting youth product since Heskey or Joachim, that's talking Barnes down.

I see you've not responded to my post though. You've gone off on one because you think our fans are classing Barnes on a par with Heskey or Joachim, I've then explained what I meant and you are still arguing about Barnes being disrespected for being measured against Heskey and Joachim. 

 

Last season you used to slate Barnes as well, I'm a little baffled. 

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12 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

I see you've not responded to my post though. You've gone off on one because you think our fans are classing Barnes on a par with Heskey or Joachim, I've then explained what I meant and you are still arguing about Barnes being disrespected for being measured against Heskey and Joachim. 

 

Last season you used to slate Barnes as well, I'm a little baffled. 

Apologies. I didnt see your post.

 

That's fair enough if that's how you're distinguishing "best" to "most exciting". I still find it a little weird to think he's not more exciting than Joachim was though.

 

I didnt used to slate Barnes. I used to say he clearly has potential but his finishing and desicion making in the final third was poor (which it was) and I wasn't convinced it would improve when others were. He has improved that though and I was wrong and others were right - I've already admitted that in here a few times this season. Why is that baffling? Can't someone be doubtful as to whether someone will improve but then be happy when they clearly do improve? What's baffling about someone happily admitting they were wrong?

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The frightening thing about Barnes is that there is still improvements to be made IMO. 

 

For England, I think Rashford is the nearest thing to him in terms of style, with his direct running and shooting on site motto. Every decent English attacker seems to want or is better playing from left. 

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8 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Apologies. I didnt see your post.

 

That's fair enough if that's how you're distinguishing "best" to "most exciting". I still find it a little weird to think he's not more exciting than Joachim was though.

 

I didnt used to slate Barnes. I used to say he clearly has potential but his finishing and desicion making in the final third was poor (which it was) and I wasn't convinced it would improve when others were. He has improved that though and I was wrong and others were right - I've already admitted that in here a few times this season. Why is that baffling? Can't someone be doubtful as to whether someone will improve but then be happy when they clearly do improve? What's baffling about someone happily admitting they were wrong?

I said he's the most exciting since Joachim, he's surpassed the buzz that Joachim used to bring as a) he's doing it at the top of the PL and in Europe and b) he's doing it more regularly. I simply love watching him, his form since December has been exceptional too.

 

What I mean by baffling was that you were seemingly struggling to comprehend why fans were doing Barnes a disservice by measuring him against inferior past academy players which we weren't doing anyway, when you also were guilty of doing him a disservice too. Anyway, we've cleared up what we meant.

 

I think what we can all agree on is we have a huge talent on our hands who ought to grace club and Country for many years.

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Just now, RowlattsFox said:

The frightening thing about Barnes is that there is still improvements to be made IMO. 

 

For England, I think Rashford is the nearest thing to him in terms of style, with his direct running and shooting on site motto. Every decent English attacker seems to want or is better playing from left. 

Grealish, Sterling, Rashford and Barnes vying for the left forward role.

 

Sancho, Greenwood, Saka and Foden for the right forward role. Although Foden is probably most likely to play in the midfield 3 where he's competing with Mount and Maddison for the ACM role. 

 

Barnes really does have to keep improving and make it impossible to be left out, the right wing is nowhere near as strong right now.

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1 hour ago, Sampson said:

At his best that was true, but you're talking about him "terrorising defences" in general as if he did it every game when he didn't - that's nostalgia talking. He did that every 4 or 5 games or so and never did it to the consistency as Barnes has done this season - neither did he show his best traits to the same consistency as Lineker, Vardy, Smith or Worthington did.

Again, I'm  not saying he was shit. He wasn't, he was good. But he also clearly was never as consistently good a player as Barnes or some of the other attacking players we've had.

Heskey was playing in a midtable team, and considering he was mostly the second striker his numbers are very decent for a young player. Lets not forget here, that first season he was 18 years old... Barnes is currently 23 and got far more football under his belt. 

 

Premier League Only

96/97   10 Goals 6 Assists

97/98   10 Goals 5 Assists

98/99   6 Goals 3 Assists

99/00  10 Goals 5 Assists

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1 minute ago, Babylon said:

Heskey was playing in a midtable team, and considering he was mostly the second striker his numbers are very decent for a young player. Lets not forget here, that first season he was 18 years old... Barnes is currently 23 and got far more football under his belt. 

 

Premier League Only

96/97   10 Goals 6 Assists

97/98   10 Goals 5 Assists

98/99   6 Goals 3 Assists

99/00  10 Goals 5 Assists

Whilst it wasn't the only reason for us being relegated, selling Heskey was a massive factor.

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2 hours ago, Sampson said:

In general football circles I'd agree. But on here he's massively overrated. A lot of people on here who watched him when they were growing up make out he is one of the best players we've ever had.

He was a good player for us in general, but he was a player who could occasionally be sensational, but was also very erratic and inconsistent.

I definitely wouldn't put him in the category as our best forwards in my time. Vardy, Lineker, Worthington and A. Smith are the best forwards we've had in my time. Heskey is one of the best forwards we've had in the next category down, absolutely. But he's definitely not in that same category as those other 4 and neither was he ever consitently close to being at the level Barnes has been for us this season.

As for Joachim, he was exciting in the Second Division because we hadn't had a player with that explosive pace for ages, but Barnes is clearly several levels above him.

Yeah but you’re judging that from an era of seeing Smith, Lineker and Worthington. Many on here did not see that era and so Heskey, is just behind Vardy for them.

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12 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Heskey was playing in a midtable team, and considering he was mostly the second striker his numbers are very decent for a young player. Lets not forget here, that first season he was 18 years old... Barnes is currently 23 and got far more football under his belt. 

 

Premier League Only

96/97   10 Goals 6 Assists

97/98   10 Goals 5 Assists

98/99   6 Goals 3 Assists

99/00  10 Goals 5 Assists

Not sure what you're responding to here or how that is relevant - if you're comparing them 18 then yes Heskey was better as Barnes was playing in the youth team still, but don't see how any of that is relevant to making him better than Barnes now though. Or whether or not saying "Barnes is the best thing to come out of youth system since Heskey" is talking down Barnes or not by saying Barnes has not yet surpassed the level Heskey was for us, when for me he quite clearly has.

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13 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Not sure what you're responding to here or how that is relevant - if you're comparing them 18 then yes Heskey was better as Barnes was playing in the youth team still, but don't see how any of that is relevant to making him better than Barnes now though. Or whether or not saying "Barnes is the best thing to come out of youth system since Heskey" is talking down Barnes or not by saying Barnes has not yet surpassed the level Heskey was for us, when for me he quite clearly has.

Because it’s not clear is it, he hasn’t even passed the numbers of an 18 year old Heskey playing in mid table team yet. Let alone doing it consistently.

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29 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Because it’s not clear is it, he hasn’t even passed the numbers of an 18 year old Heskey playing in mid table team yet. Let alone doing it consistently.

Come off it, you know very well that's crap. You're holding onto Heskey being better solely based solely on the fact Barnes still has well over 1/3 of a season left. Unless he gets injured for the majority of this season though or goes on a massive drought for the next 14 games it's pretty clear Barnes will outdo any of Heskey's seasons though. If Barnes is consistently shit for the next 14 games then yes you might have a point.

 

But regardless, Barnes' performances have clearly been more consistent this season than Heskey's ever were.

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1 hour ago, LCFCJ said:

he has always been extremely fast I just don't think he ever had the confidence in the spell under puel when we recalled him back from WBA to actually run at defenders and utilise it 

I'm not sure if he was always incredibly fast, I might be wrong though, I certainly never thought of Barnes as being potentially as one of the quickest players in the Premier League. If anything I thought of him as someone who was good at long range shots, something he seems to do less of now. 

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It was his young age that that made Heskey amazing. He made world class defenders look like toys during that 96/97 season. 

 

When Heskey was in full song at 19 there was no team in the world that could handle him. I don't think I've seen an academy graduate have such an impact since at such a young age and possibly will never again. 

 

He regressed into a 62 capped full international. 

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11 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Come off it, you know very well that's crap. You're holding onto Heskey being better solely based solely on the fact Barnes still has well over 1/3 of a season left. Unless he gets injured for the majority of this season though or goes on a massive drought for the next 14 games it's pretty clear Barnes will outdo any of Heskey's seasons though. If Barnes is consistently shit for the next 14 games then yes you might have a point.

 

But regardless, Barnes' performances have clearly been more consistent this season than Heskey's ever were.

It's not crap, Barnes need to beat his numbers and then do it again next season. Then there is a discussion to be had. If we are making bold statement about x y z player then I'll measure it in years and not months. 

 

It's also relative, what would Heskey have done in this team? Let alone a 23 year old Heskey. 

 

And just to clarify, I've only joined this since you said "Barnes is clearly better than Heskey was and much better than Joachim." I have no idea how this started or what else has been said. 

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1 hour ago, los dedos said:

Why can't you ?

Just based on what the guy said about heskey. If he was as average as described,  just curious why Liverpool would pay a club record fee for a 22 year old....

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4 hours ago, Sampson said:

 

 

It's the same with Steve Walsh. You get plenty on here saying he was better than Morgan, Huth; Evans or Soyuncu. I loved Walsh, he was here for years, he had iconic moments, I totally get why people love him and romanticise him - because there's more to being loved at a club than ability. But in terms of ability, he clearly wasn't as consistently ood as the likes of Morgan,Huth, Evans or Soyuncu at their peaks. To me, that's not talking Walsh down, that's talking Morgan, Huth, Evans and Soyuncu down - and when people say Barnes is our best/most exciting youth product since Heskey or Joachim, that's talking Barnes down.

Morgan has been a fantastic captain for us but he's not in the same category as Huth or Soyuncu.

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2 hours ago, Collymore said:

It was his young age that that made Heskey amazing. He made world class defenders look like toys during that 96/97 season. 

 

When Heskey was in full song at 19 there was no team in the world that could handle him. I don't think I've seen an academy graduate have such an impact since at such a young age and possibly will never again. 

 

He regressed into a 62 capped full international. 

Huh?

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What i find mystifying, Sampson, is your assertion that Heskey was inconsistent.  I have always thought of him as someone who produced match after match, and he was a fantastic selfless team player.  As for his technical ability, he is often maligned as being clumsy for some reason I don't understand.  As an example of his skill - the backheel, after chasing down a long lofted punt (from Parker, I think), which sent the ball back towards the penalty spot to be gobbled up by Claridge.  This occurred in a midweek cup match v Man U at Filbo, but was never given the appreciation by the media as the match was largely ignored.  As an avid Leicester fan I'm sure you must remember it.

 

It also begs the question - if his performances were inconsistent, why was he picked early and regularly for the England team, and why did Liverpool pay a fortune for him?

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On 21/02/2021 at 18:03, foxes_rule1978 said:

Always a player when on the ball you get excited, he makes things happen has all the attributes needed to be truly world class. 

When he first broke into the team he was nowhere near the level he is now, but even then I would 

always be out of my seat when he was on the ball.

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Heskey was brilliant for us. Maybe gets the inconsistent tag because he wasn't a prolific scorer but watch back any highlights from that time and it's staggering how many goals he was involved in.

 

Loved Heskey and love Barnes too!

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45 minutes ago, hackneyfox said:

Morgan has been a fantastic captain for us but he's not in the same category as Huth or Soyuncu.

Morgan was head and shoulders above both in my opinion....Cags has the potential and Huth was a warrior but Wes led by example, a dressing room king and widely respected as a fantastic leader but also boy could he play plus was quicker than given credit for. The year we won the league he was absolutely tremendous at both ends of the pitch.

 

Hopefully he remains within the club as he is a role model and his experience will be invaluable for us to retain.

 

 

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