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17 hours ago, ozleicester said:

So conflicted, so sad, what a world we live in.

This young man is dead because he was taught to hate... worst of all he was taught to hate himself.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-13/liberal-national-club-president-wilson-gavin-dies/11863096

Very sad.  I have some sympathy for his views on this specific event though to be honest; Coucnil funding hiring drag queens - one called Diamond Good-rim ffs - to read to kids is just wierd.  I would have thought there were better ways to protest it without upsetting kids mind you.

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17 hours ago, ozleicester said:

So conflicted, so sad, what a world we live in.

This young man is dead because he was taught to hate... worst of all he was taught to hate himself.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-13/liberal-national-club-president-wilson-gavin-dies/11863096

 

4 hours ago, Aus Fox said:

He’s also dead because of online trolls who feel rather than debating with a person over their believes and trying to educate them, they send death threats to them, target their family, their friends and their workplace and their place of education.

We all have different political beliefs and we need to stop the vilification of anyone who thinks differently to us.

Engage them in conversation, try to understand a different view point and both sides might just learn something. 
I think anyone found guilty of threatening the life of this young man or urging him to kill himself, should be charged with his manslaughter.

 

6 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Very sad.  I have some sympathy for his views on this specific event though to be honest; Coucnil funding hiring drag queens - one called Diamond Good-rim ffs - to read to kids is just wierd.  I would have thought there were better ways to protest it without upsetting kids mind you.

It is very sad - no one should be hounded until they feel there is no way out, no matter their views. There's always an option to talk someone round IMO.

 

That being said, a simple truth is that for every guy like this who takes their own life because of relentless pressure from cyber bullies, there are likely twenty trans folks who do the same due to the same pressure from people who think the same way as this young guy did.

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13 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

I'm all seriousness though, if you look at practically all other "developed" countries you see how much a statistical outlier the US (and to a lesser extent, the UK) is in terms of the way they view their populace and their part in society.

 

I wouldn't disagree. I know that the French and Spanish refer to "Anglo-Saxon policy/economics", referring to the USA & UK model based much more on laissez-faire capitalism, lower tax/spend & the acceptance of greater inequality - supposedly in exchange for greater innovation and dynamism.

 

I'm no expert on Germany, but my understanding is that the policies of Merkel's "centre-right" Christian Democrats have historically been akin to moderate UK Labour policies (to the right of Corbyn, but possibly to the left of Blair?). Different Overton windows in different countries, it seems.

 

I lack the knowledge to offer an informed opinion on who has the best chance of beating Trump. But I'd be nervous about Sanders as a candidate, despite his seeming a much more intelligent, charismatic and articulate man than Corbyn.

Part of my concern is his age and health, as much as his perceived "left-wing" status. I know Trump is no spring chicken either, but he's already in post & hasn't recently had a heart issue.

 

How Biden, Warren or anyone else might do against Trump, I don't know. But I'm tempted to instinctively resort for 2 old UK political cliches....

- "Events, dear boy, events!"

- "Oppositions don't win elections, governments (or Presidents) lose them"

 

My impression is that the USA remains as polarised as in 2016 with few views having shifted.....though it only takes a few views to shift for the result to be different, as Trump's victory was so narrow last time. 

In the short-term, the impeachment move seems to have boosted Trump's ratings, after they had fallen, but impeachment will presumably have been vetoed by the Senate within a couple of months.....so then it could be a case of whether "events" happen and whether Trump cocks up, otherwise it could be very close again. If the US economy/employment dips in the next 12 months or body bags containing Americans start returning from the Middle East, any credible Dem candidate would be favourite, maybe? 

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11 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

 

It is very sad - no one should be hounded until they feel there is no way out, no matter their views. There's always an option to talk someone round IMO.

 

That being said, a simple truth is that for every guy like this who takes their own life because of relentless pressure from cyber bullies, there are likely twenty trans folks who do the same due to the same pressure from people who think the same way as this young guy did.

Absolutely, I agree with you 100%. I would include this guy in what I’m saying, we as a society just need to learn to talk to each other, lose the hate and realise it’s okay not to have the same point of view as everyone else.

This guy decided to hate, and allowed his own ignorance to make someone else feel uncomfortable going about their daily life. This is not okay, this should never be okay! But it is also not okay to then harass this guy with hate.

At this point the people who have sent him messages become no better than he is. 
Education and conversation is what is required. 

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8 hours ago, Jattdogg said:

As a non smoker i'd be doen to have extra days off....but...

 

What about those who take 10 minute coffee/tea breaks or those who shit at work to kill time. Where do you draw the line?

 

 

Those who take fag breaks are just as likely to ido the other things you mention too.

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Somewhy, I suspect that it's epicly unlikely that Nicola Sturgeon will bung a bob for a Big Ben bong!

Edited by String fellow

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2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I wouldn't disagree. I know that the French and Spanish refer to "Anglo-Saxon policy/economics", referring to the USA & UK model based much more on laissez-faire capitalism, lower tax/spend & the acceptance of greater inequality - supposedly in exchange for greater innovation and dynamism.

 

I'm no expert on Germany, but my understanding is that the policies of Merkel's "centre-right" Christian Democrats have historically been akin to moderate UK Labour policies (to the right of Corbyn, but possibly to the left of Blair?). Different Overton windows in different countries, it seems.

 

I lack the knowledge to offer an informed opinion on who has the best chance of beating Trump. But I'd be nervous about Sanders as a candidate, despite his seeming a much more intelligent, charismatic and articulate man than Corbyn.

Part of my concern is his age and health, as much as his perceived "left-wing" status. I know Trump is no spring chicken either, but he's already in post & hasn't recently had a heart issue.

 

How Biden, Warren or anyone else might do against Trump, I don't know. But I'm tempted to instinctively resort for 2 old UK political cliches....

- "Events, dear boy, events!"

- "Oppositions don't win elections, governments (or Presidents) lose them"

 

My impression is that the USA remains as polarised as in 2016 with few views having shifted.....though it only takes a few views to shift for the result to be different, as Trump's victory was so narrow last time. 

In the short-term, the impeachment move seems to have boosted Trump's ratings, after they had fallen, but impeachment will presumably have been vetoed by the Senate within a couple of months.....so then it could be a case of whether "events" happen and whether Trump cocks up, otherwise it could be very close again. If the US economy/employment dips in the next 12 months or body bags containing Americans start returning from the Middle East, any credible Dem candidate would be favourite, maybe? 

The concerns about Bernie's health are well-founded here, but the only one who really knows the severity of it is him.

 

I'm certainly with you on the last paragraph - there are so many variables that could occur over the next few months. FWIW I actually think starting a war, as much as many Americans have grown tired of the idea, would still boost Trump more than hinder him and that had a certain part of play in the issue with Iran recently. But employment/economics will have a large part to play, of course.

 

As well, the idea of voter suppression (making it difficult to the point of impossible for certain demographics in certain places to register to vote) in a few key states seems to be popping up more and more often, which is a mite worrying.

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3 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Very sad.  I have some sympathy for his views on this specific event though to be honest; Coucnil funding hiring drag queens - one called Diamond Good-rim ffs - to read to kids is just wierd.  I would have thought there were better ways to protest it without upsetting kids mind you.

damn i promised myself  i wouldnt get involved in  this any further.

Feel for his family and loved ones

Edited by ozleicester

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3 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I wouldn't disagree. I know that the French and Spanish refer to "Anglo-Saxon policy/economics", referring to the USA & UK model based much more on laissez-faire capitalism, lower tax/spend & the acceptance of greater inequality - supposedly in exchange for greater innovation and dynamism.

 

I'm no expert on Germany, but my understanding is that the policies of Merkel's "centre-right" Christian Democrats have historically been akin to moderate UK Labour policies (to the right of Corbyn, but possibly to the left of Blair?). Different Overton windows in different countries, it seems.

 

I lack the knowledge to offer an informed opinion on who has the best chance of beating Trump. But I'd be nervous about Sanders as a candidate, despite his seeming a much more intelligent, charismatic and articulate man than Corbyn.

Part of my concern is his age and health, as much as his perceived "left-wing" status. I know Trump is no spring chicken either, but he's already in post & hasn't recently had a heart issue.

 

How Biden, Warren or anyone else might do against Trump, I don't know. But I'm tempted to instinctively resort for 2 old UK political cliches....

- "Events, dear boy, events!"

- "Oppositions don't win elections, governments (or Presidents) lose them"

 

My impression is that the USA remains as polarised as in 2016 with few views having shifted.....though it only takes a few views to shift for the result to be different, as Trump's victory was so narrow last time. 

In the short-term, the impeachment move seems to have boosted Trump's ratings, after they had fallen, but impeachment will presumably have been vetoed by the Senate within a couple of months.....so then it could be a case of whether "events" happen and whether Trump cocks up, otherwise it could be very close again. If the US economy/employment dips in the next 12 months or body bags containing Americans start returning from the Middle East, any credible Dem candidate would be favourite, maybe? 

A good interesting post.

 

I think a bit has changed though just in the last couple of years, Europe has turned right on social issues and left on economics and now the only two major countries with secure majorities (Britain and France) seems to be the only ones who have a PM who has recognised that. For "Johnsonism" as it may well be called to work though he will have to avoid the greedy capitalism and lower taxes on the rich as there is no public desire for it anymore.

 

That will be hard to do but with the changing political map there has never been a more worthwhile or easier time to actually achieve it without hurting your own vote. Given the young are voting for more borrowing the moral case for not loading debt onto them isn't much of a problem either.

 

With regards to the US I think Biden is the only candidate who can take some Trump voters back to the Dems, the others win I dont see why any of them would switch.

 

For the Dems to win with a Sanders they'll need huge numbers of BAME voters to drag them over in states that are overwhelmingly white and that might be too much. Similar to the Labour party here as well, you can expect a collapse in the Jewish Democrat vote given (was over 70% for Clinton according to wiki) the association with politicians like Omar/AOC etc who are bordering on that typical left wing antisemitism - along with Trump's pro-Jewish policy of things like recognising Jerusalem as a capital.

 

I thought it was 50/50 before impeachment but its certainly swung in Trump's favour since. Long way to go though.

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20 minutes ago, MattP said:

A good interesting post.

 

I think a bit has changed though just in the last couple of years, Europe has turned right on social issues and left on economics and now the only two major countries with secure majorities (Britain and France) seems to be the only ones who have a PM who has recognised that. For "Johnsonism" as it may well be called to work though he will have to avoid the greedy capitalism and lower taxes on the rich as there is no public desire for it anymore.

 

That will be hard to do but with the changing political map there has never been a more worthwhile or easier time to actually achieve it without hurting your own vote. Given the young are voting for more borrowing the moral case for not loading debt onto them isn't much of a problem either.

 

With regards to the US I think Biden is the only candidate who can take some Trump voters back to the Dems, the others win I dont see why any of them would switch.

 

For the Dems to win with a Sanders they'll need huge numbers of BAME voters to drag them over in states that are overwhelmingly white and that might be too much. Similar to the Labour party here as well, you can expect a collapse in the Jewish Democrat vote given (was over 70% for Clinton according to wiki) the association with politicians like Omar/AOC etc who are bordering on that typical left wing antisemitism - along with Trump's pro-Jewish policy of things like recognising Jerusalem as a capital.

 

I thought it was 50/50 before impeachment but its certainly swung in Trump's favour since. Long way to go though.

I suppose you could make a case for this given Orban in Hungary etc, but I'm curious to know more about exactly what you mean here. I mean, Ireland recently decided to step out of the religiously-imposed dark ages with referenda on abortion on gay marriage, and thankfully I don't see much of a rollback on such rights across Europe - unlike the way they are being challenged in the US.

 

Unless you're thinking immigration/race relations as the cornerstone of the argument here, perhaps? Could well have a point there.

 

NB. And the aforementioned voter suppression tactics might not be good news for the BAME voting bloc you refer to in the US, sadly.

Edited by leicsmac

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1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

I suppose you could make a case for this given Orban in Hungary etc, but I'm curious to know more about exactly what you mean here. I mean, Ireland recently decided to step out of the religiously-imposed dark ages with referenda on abortion on gay marriage, and thankfully I don't see much of a rollback on such rights across Europe - unlike the way they are being challenged in the US.

 

Unless you're thinking immigration/race relations as the cornerstone of the argument here, perhaps? Could well have a point there.

 

NB. And the aforementioned voter suppression tactics might not be good news for the BAME voting bloc you refer to in the US, sadly.

Purely on immigration/crime and punishment etc

 

I dont see any desire for rolling back rights for women or LGBT aside from small sections of some communities (aside from what will be a huge pushback on the trans thing, which many would consider upholding women's rights anyway).

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If Sanders gets the nomination he'll smash the popular vote but the folk lining the college's pockets won't be having any of it.

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2 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

If Sanders gets the nomination he'll smash the popular vote but the folk lining the college's pockets won't be having any of it.

Surely even the Democrats will realise this election there is little point appealing even more to New York and California whilst not bothering in actual swing states?

 

You'll win those two if you had Trump standing under the Democrat banner - find someone who can win Ohio and Pennsylvania.

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4 hours ago, Izzy said:

:nigel:

 

Former Speaker John Bercow claimed £1,000 taxi fare

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51109296

 

£1000 for a taxi to Nottingham? Please don't tell me he went to a Forest match.....

 

I presume all his taxis to Brussels were paid by the unelected EU bureaucrats and then charged to the UK account? :ph34r:

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17 hours ago, Aus Fox said:

We all have different political beliefs and we need to stop the vilification of anyone who thinks differently to us.

Engage them in conversation, try to understand a different view point and both sides might just learn something. 

This is such a great point.

 

Unfortunately, those who are so deeply entrenched on whatever side don't realise that other opinions exist and probably feel those opinions shouldn't be allowed to exist.

 

Social media is a bear pit when it comes to politics, sadly.

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59 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

£1000 for a taxi to Nottingham? Please don't tell me he went to a Forest match.....

 

I presume all his taxis to Brussels were paid by the unelected EU bureaucrats and then charged to the UK account? :ph34r:

The guys is a colony of the highest proportion and hence is a good candidate for the Labour party leader

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It's funny how we are all centred around the US, when the lines of India are raping 200 million people with there right wing agenda.

 

If I was Indian, I'd be embarrassed and ashamed about what they are doing to Kashmir and this citizen act.  Every minority in India should be scared, there comming for you.

 

The fooking cowards have no majority in the UK and guess what the pussies are quite, go India, the pussies think there Lions.

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8 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I suppose you could make a case for this given Orban in Hungary etc, but I'm curious to know more about exactly what you mean here. I mean, Ireland recently decided to step out of the religiously-imposed dark ages with referenda on abortion on gay marriage, and thankfully I don't see much of a rollback on such rights across Europe - unlike the way they are being challenged in the US.

 

Unless you're thinking immigration/race relations as the cornerstone of the argument here, perhaps? Could well have a point there.

 

NB. And the aforementioned voter suppression tactics might not be good news for the BAME voting bloc you refer to in the US, sadly.

Well, the facts are:

 

UK - devastating Tory victory

Germany - dominated by the CDU/CSU (conservative) since the end of Schröder's era in 2004

France - huge gains for Le Pen in the European election, the Senate is dominated by a centre-right majority

Spain - both the upper and lower house have centre-right, conservative majorities

Poland - dominated by a centre-right alliance in both houses

Austria - see Poland

Netherlands - see Poland

Belgium - see Poland

Czech Republic - the Chamber of Deputies is led by a new political, reformist party to the left of the centre (but not socialist), the Senate is dominated by a centre-right alliance

 

Just to name some of the biggest European countries.

 

 

Opposite developments in countries such as Portugal (where conservatives are a rarity) and Italy (slight centre-left advantage).

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24 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Well, the facts are:

 

UK - devastating Tory victory

Germany - dominated by the CDU/CSU (conservative) since the end of Schröder's era in 2004

France - huge gains for Le Pen in the European election, the Senate is dominated by a centre-right majority

Spain - both the upper and lower house have centre-right, conservative majorities

Poland - dominated by a centre-right alliance in both houses

Austria - see Poland

Netherlands - see Poland

Belgium - see Poland

Czech Republic - the Chamber of Deputies is led by a new political, reformist party to the left of the centre (but not socialist), the Senate is dominated by a centre-right alliance

 

Just to name some of the biggest European countries.

 

 

Opposite developments in countries such as Portugal (where conservatives are a rarity) and Italy (slight centre-left advantage).

Mate, fook the politics, the people are so much more right wing.  I travel to Eu all the time, and things are so fooked up.  You go out of the major commercial cities, and it's worse then 70's England

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1 hour ago, MC Prussian said:

Well, the facts are:

 

UK - devastating Tory victory

Germany - dominated by the CDU/CSU (conservative) since the end of Schröder's era in 2004

France - huge gains for Le Pen in the European election, the Senate is dominated by a centre-right majority

Spain - both the upper and lower house have centre-right, conservative majorities

Poland - dominated by a centre-right alliance in both houses

Austria - see Poland

Netherlands - see Poland

Belgium - see Poland

Czech Republic - the Chamber of Deputies is led by a new political, reformist party to the left of the centre (but not socialist), the Senate is dominated by a centre-right alliance

 

Just to name some of the biggest European countries.

 

 

Opposite developments in countries such as Portugal (where conservatives are a rarity) and Italy (slight centre-left advantage).

Yeah, I'm getting the shifts in governments, I was just wondering where the "social" aspect of it was coming from - Matt mentioned immigration and race policy as the main motivators there and I don't disagree.

 

TBH when I think "social right-winger/conservative" my mind almost always jumps to the classic US-style stereotype with the full package - white (though not always), usually religious, wants those nasty ethnic people of various types "away from them", thinks women belong either in the kitchen or the church and that anyone LGBT is clearly mentally ill and need to be "corrected" using government legislation to oppress them (despite often espousing the problems with Big Government).

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