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10 hours ago, MC Prussian said:

Well, the facts are:

 

UK - devastating Tory victory

Germany - dominated by the CDU/CSU (conservative) since the end of Schröder's era in 2004

France - huge gains for Le Pen in the European election, the Senate is dominated by a centre-right majority

Spain - both the upper and lower house have centre-right, conservative majorities

Poland - dominated by a centre-right alliance in both houses

Austria - see Poland

Netherlands - see Poland

Belgium - see Poland

Czech Republic - the Chamber of Deputies is led by a new political, reformist party to the left of the centre (but not socialist), the Senate is dominated by a centre-right alliance

 

Just to name some of the biggest European countries.

 

 

Opposite developments in countries such as Portugal (where conservatives are a rarity) and Italy (slight centre-left advantage).

 

Last week: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-51019358

"Spain's caretaker socialist Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez has narrowly won a confidence vote in parliament, enabling him to govern in coalition with far-left Podemos".

 

They've just exhumed Franco from his exalted elite burial place and had him reburied in a private family plot, haven't they?

 

If you're going to cite "huge gains for Le Pen in the European election", you surely also have to cite the huge European election gains for the Greens in Germany & in several other countries:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/european-election-result-greens-green-wave-spd-germany-a8931351.html

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17 hours ago, MattP said:

Purely on immigration/crime and punishment etc

 

I dont see any desire for rolling back rights for women or LGBT aside from small sections of some communities (aside from what will be a huge pushback on the trans thing, which many would consider upholding women's rights anyway).

 

8 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Matt mentioned immigration and race policy as the main motivators there and I don't disagree.

@leicsmac As you can see I never mentioned race at all - you've obviously taken that just from me mentioning immigration.

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6 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

@leicsmac As you can see I never mentioned race at all - you've obviously taken that just from me mentioning immigration.

Ah, thank you for the clarification. Yes, I think that most often to speak of one is to speak of the other, but apologies for the generalisation.

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Anyone talking about „race policy“ in today’s society and political system has obviously never had any history lessons whatsoever.

 

Careless to throw that term around so casually.

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10 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, I'm getting the shifts in governments, I was just wondering where the "social" aspect of it was coming from - Matt mentioned immigration and race policy as the main motivators there and I don't disagree.

 

TBH when I think "social right-winger/conservative" my mind almost always jumps to the classic US-style stereotype with the full package - white (though not always), usually religious, wants those nasty ethnic people of various types "away from them", thinks women belong either in the kitchen or the church and that anyone LGBT is clearly mentally ill and need to be "corrected" using government legislation to oppress them (despite often espousing the problems with Big Government).

Yes, stereotypes. People like that do exist - the question remains how prevalent they are. Keep in mind that in the US, the majority of voters are independent/undecided.

You just constructed your ideal foe. Congrats. No space wasted on all the huge grey areas in between, be it on the right or the left.

 

By the sounds of it, you make it look as if we‘re on the road towards oppressive, totalitarian regimes, such as China. Or North Korea. Which we aren‘t.

Edited by MC Prussian

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6 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Anyone talking about „race policy“ in today’s society and political system has obviously never had any history lessons whatsoever.

 

Careless to throw that term around so casually.

Let alone casually conflating it with immigration. Unbelievable stuff

Edited by Kopfkino

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6 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Yes, stereotypes. People like that do exist - the question remains how prevalent they are. Keep in mind that in the US, the majority of voters are independent/undecided.

You just constructed your ideal foe. Congrats. No space wasted on all the huge grey areas in between, be it on the right or the left.

 

By the sounds of it, you make it look as if we‘re on the road towards oppressive, totalitarian regimes, such as China. Or North Korea. Which we aren‘t.

...I never claimed to be a saint or infallible, and I'm not sure why it keeps popping up here that I do. I'm as subject to my own biases and believing stereotypes as the next person and I'll always admit that. That being said, the idea put across here is hardly a strawman - there are many, many examples of that stereotype fitting exactly that exist in the US and some of them possess considerable political power. Writing them off as a fringe element is a mistake, especially considering what has been done with that power by those people through history.

 

As for the second paragraph, I do think there's a shift towards authoritarianism that is happening in a lot of different places and that social conservatism and such authoritarianism go hand in hand. But my original point was that it isn't as bad as all that at the present time thankfully, so I'm not sure where you get the idea that I think it is from.

 

4 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Let alone casually conflating it with immigration. Unbelievable stuff

I'm sorry, is there no link at all between the immigration policy of various nations and where the immigrants detailed in that policy hail from, then? Is it all entirely based on numbers of people able to cater for, economics and ability to help the nation they immigrate to?

 

Because if not, then there is a link between the immigration policy of a country and how the administration and/or the populace in that country views the demographics of people from a different country. It certainly isn't the case in all cases, but it may well be the case in some and as such shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

 

 

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4 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Ah, thank you for the clarification. Yes, I think that most often to speak of one is to speak of the other, but apologies for the generalisation.

No problem, but there wasn't actually any need for "clarification" was there?

 

I or nobody else mentioned race at all. I mentioned immigration.

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29 minutes ago, MattP said:

No problem, but there wasn't actually any need for "clarification" was there?

 

I or nobody else mentioned race at all. I mentioned immigration.

In hindsight, no - I have seen numerous examples where one is used as a smokescreen for the other, but that wasn't one.

 

I'm not going to back away from the idea that some governments are pursuing an immigration policy that at least sometimes discriminates based on race but I shouldn't have brought your name into it.

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On 05/01/2020 at 19:36, st albans fox said:

Once .... how many free elections have there been since putin came to power?  

 

On 05/01/2020 at 20:40, sm1 said:

Would be really interested to know what actual Russians think of Putin. Only ever met one native Russian and he loved him. He thought the only reason he gets so much negative press here is because he takes no shit from Europe or the USA. 

Perhaps those with more insight than me could advise whether today’s events in Russia are putins next attempt to stay in control ...

 always democratically done and always resulting in him staying in power ........

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1 hour ago, st albans fox said:

 

Perhaps those with more insight than me could advise whether today’s events in Russia are putins next attempt to stay in control ...

 always democratically done and always resulting in him staying in power ........

Without knowing all of the ins and outs of Russian politics, it would appear so. From what I can gather he wants a system change more similar to the Chinese model, allowing him to be head of state in Russia with no limits on his tenure. His reign should end in 2024, but he appears to be changing the constitution to allow him to stay in control beyond this.

I think he had his puppet as Prime Minister, who I am guess was told he would take over in 2024, and has now cracked it. Putin now puts in place a political unknown into the Prime Minister role who will do as he’s told basically.

This is me reading between the lines, and if anyone knows more please correct me if I’m wrong.

Edited by Aus Fox

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I often read these BBC 'Long Reads' articles on my lunch break, this was published a while back but still interesting nonetheless. 

 

The Story of Tunnel 29

In 1961, Joachim Rudolph escaped from one of the world’s most brutal dictatorships. A few months later, he began tunnelling his way back in. Why?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/Od4dL9Lip2/tunnel_29

 

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On 15/01/2020 at 16:12, oxford blue said:

 

That's the point that I was making. :D

 

The words you've credited to me were what Prussian wrote. I merely put them in bold and pointed out (below the quote) the inaccuracy re. Spain.

 

Not a big deal, though. It is true that, in general, the traditional left/centre-left has struggled in a lot of places around Europe - but not in the Iberian peninsula recently.

Other issues like the recent rise of the Greens in some countries further complicate things......and the trad right/centre-right has plummeted in some countries (e.g. France) or is apparently struggling in others (e.g. Germany).

The Far Right has done well.....up to a point, but thankfully hasn't managed a major breakthrough yet in Western Europe. I don't know much about the Visegrad countries of central/eastern Europe where it has gained power...but is under some challenge, from what I've read.

 

A complex and definitely risky situation, but we're not "doomed" yet, to quote Private Frazer.

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2 hours ago, Mike Oxlong said:

@MattP have you got a new job with Dublin council ? 
 

image.jpeg.451e6fb4462bcf1c953500d3d86963c1.jpeg

 

Homeless man in hospital after council clean-up removes tent with him inside http://news.sky.com/story/homeless-man-in-hospital-after-council-clean-up-removes-tent-with-him-

Doubt it, @MattP, would have pissed in him first.

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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51140930

 

Let the festival of partisanship followed by the inevitable acquittal by McConnell and co begin, then. Although...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51139939

 

That might make it a bit more interesting, though I doubt the Senate Repubs will care.

 

And a couple more for the road...

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51134200

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51142752

 

Two examples of America's Finest, right there.

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