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56 minutes ago, UniFox21 said:

As you say, Barnes and Perez play almost as inside forwards rather than actual winger, which would be fine if our fullbacks utilised the width enough. I'm hoping this 3 back formation is something we look at utilising more, as Gray can be utilised in both the wing and a central role. 

He seems a really decent finisher, given some of the chances he's taken have seemed harder than ones players like Barnes have missed

Gray doesn’t consistently get into positions like Barnes does. Barnes’ misses are really frustrating but I don’t think we’ve ever had a wide player that gets into good positions as well as he does, not even Mahrez (most of his goal were from his shooting ability rather than positioning).

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24 minutes ago, Stadt said:

Gray doesn’t consistently get into positions like Barnes does. Barnes’ misses are really frustrating but I don’t think we’ve ever had a wide player that gets into good positions as well as he does, not even Mahrez (most of his goal were from his shooting ability rather than positioning).

I'd have to agree, I wouldn't be surprise to see him develop into a more central player!

 

If he could sort his shooting, combine with his technical ability, dribbling and pace, he could be a left field long term replacement for Vardy. 

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3 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

I'd have to agree, I wouldn't be surprise to see him develop into a more central player!

 

If he could sort his shooting, combine with his technical ability, dribbling and pace, he could be a left field long replacement for Vardy. 

...so, what you are saying is, Puel was right!!!

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12 minutes ago, Stadt said:

Gray doesn’t consistently get into positions like Barnes does. Barnes’ misses are really frustrating but I don’t think we’ve ever had a wide player that gets into good positions as well as he does, not even Mahrez (most of his goal were from his shooting ability rather than positioning).

Imo we need a Gray type winger who has a good passing range and a decent long shot to be the wide creator and a barnes type winger to pop up in the box and finish chances. It's what man city are doing with sterling and mahrez. Whether barnes and gray are good enough is still to be seen but i still have faith personally. Apart from late last year we havent really seen them together but i think they would be a good combo if they got gametime consitently as a duo.

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43 minutes ago, honeybradger said:

Imo we need a Gray type winger who has a good passing range and a decent long shot to be the wide creator and a barnes type winger to pop up in the box and finish chances. It's what man city are doing with sterling and mahrez. Whether barnes and gray are good enough is still to be seen but i still have faith personally. Apart from late last year we havent really seen them together but i think they would be a good combo if they got gametime consitently as a duo.

We need a Gray type winger that’s good at all the things Gray isn’t? lol 

 

I think Gray is probably scrutinised more than most of our players and I’m guilty of that too but he’s 24 now, played over 120 PL games (54 as starts). He’s not kicked on under 4 managers and now he’s approaching his peak years. We’ve got three options:

 

Renew his contract 

Let his contract run down 

Sell him 

 

Given most clubs aren’t going to be flush with cash selling him probably isn’t an option. We’ve seen enough to know he’s not going to become markedly better than he is so I’d rather let his contract run down than renew but it depends if the club are content with him as a backup and he is too

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1 hour ago, Stadt said:

Gray doesn’t consistently get into positions like Barnes does. Barnes’ misses are really frustrating but I don’t think we’ve ever had a wide player that gets into good positions as well as he does, not even Mahrez (most of his goal were from his shooting ability rather than positioning).

It’s weird with Barnes because he gets into the positions when we’re on the counter but when we’re trying to break down a low block his movement is really poor. 
 

If you watch some of Pérez’s movement from earlier on in the season and how it benefits Ricardo in the final 3rd and then compare it to Barnes’ movement it explains some of why Chilwell’s early season performances left some bemused.

 

That doesn’t mean Chilwell’s defensive errors at times were Barnes’ fault, but in an attacking sense there have been many times where Ben takes the ball down the line then runs out of room whilst waiting for an option and Barnes is static. 

 

Barnes is ever improving though, I just think sometimes he’s too often reactive instead of being proactive. It just doesn’t ever look like he believes he’s got to that position and will score, just needs some composure in front of goal and to see the bigger picture of the game around him more often when he’s on the ball or making an option. 

 

 
 

 

Edited by pmcla26
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9 minutes ago, pmcla26 said:

It’s weird with Barnes because he gets into the positions when we’re on the counter but when we’re trying to break down a low block his movement is really poor. 
 

If you watch some of Pérez’s movement from earlier on in the season and how it benefits Ricardo in the final 3rd and then compare it to Barnes’ movement it explains some of why Chilwell’s early season performances left some bemused.

 

That doesn’t mean Chilwell’s defensive errors at times were Barnes’ fault, but in an attacking sense there have been many times where Ben takes the ball down the line then runs out of room whilst waiting for an option and Barnes is static. 

 

Barnes is ever improving though, I just think sometimes he’s too often reactive instead of being proactive. It just doesn’t ever look like he believes he’s got to that position and will score, just needs some composure in front of goal and to see the bigger picture of the game around him more often when he’s on the ball or making an option. 

 

 
 

 

Sometimes his movement is a bit odd, I agree, but that's an area Rodgers and his staff need to help him with. What doesn't help though is Barnes thrives on early balls where he has space to run at his marker, Chilwell's strength is carrying the ball rather than passing it so we end up in a scenario whereby Barnes doesn't have space and Chilwell has to find another option because he doesn't cross particularly well. I don't think it's a coincidence Barnes plays better without Chilwell because Fuchs/Justin/Thomas all release the ball earlier 

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7 minutes ago, Stadt said:

Sometimes his movement is a bit odd, I agree, but that's an area Rodgers and his staff need to help him with. What doesn't help though is Barnes thrives on early balls where he has space to run at his marker, Chilwell's strength is carrying the ball rather than passing it so we end up in a scenario whereby Barnes doesn't have space and Chilwell has to find another option because he doesn't cross particularly well. I don't think it's a coincidence Barnes plays better without Chilwell because Fuchs/Justin/Thomas all release the ball earlier 

Very true. I think same goes for vice versa  regarding Barnes playing better without Chilwell, Chilwell plays better with no one really in front of him. On paper it should work with Barnes going inside and Chilwell outside but unfortunately seems to not be that simple.
 

Like you say, I think Brendan and co. really need to work on Barnes’ movement in training because it seems to make all the difference between him being anonymous in some games and being our most dangerous threat in others. 

Edited by pmcla26
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1 hour ago, Stadt said:

We need a Gray type winger that’s good at all the things Gray isn’t? lol 

 

I think Gray is probably scrutinised more than most of our players and I’m guilty of that too but he’s 24 now, played over 120 PL games (54 as starts). He’s not kicked on under 4 managers and now he’s approaching his peak years. We’ve got three options:

 

Renew his contract 

Let his contract run down 

Sell him 

 

Given most clubs aren’t going to be flush with cash selling him probably isn’t an option. We’ve seen enough to know he’s not going to become markedly better than he is so I’d rather let his contract run down than renew but it depends if the club are content with him as a backup and he is too

Except we've seen Gray CAN do all this stuff, such as long balls, shots from outside the box. His problem is doing it consistently but he definitely has the talent to pull off higher level passes than either barnes or perez. Of course consistency is the key which is why i said we might need a better version of gray but to say he cant do it is kind of just wrong.

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Give him a three year deal, use him as a squad player or as an impact player from the bench if he's happy to accept that. He's never gonna set the world alight but he can be a decent option coming on midway through a game or in the earlier cup rounds. However, as unlikely as it is, If someone offers 15m+ then I'd definitely accept.

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44 minutes ago, honeybradger said:

Except we've seen Gray CAN do all this stuff, such as long balls, shots from outside the box. His problem is doing it consistently but he definitely has the talent to pull off higher level passes than either barnes or perez. Of course consistency is the key which is why i said we might need a better version of gray but to say he cant do it is kind of just wrong.

One long range goal against United doesn't mean that it's in his repertoire, Vardy scored that screamer against Liverpool in 15/16 and hasn't scored a goal like that in the 100+ appearances since. You're into analytics, his expected assists p90 across the last few seasons is 0.12 p90, it's actually quite good this season at 0.23 but he's barely played. Sample size is really important, in 15/16 Ulloa was one of the most creative passes in the league because of the lowish amount of minutes and coming on as a sub routinely with a distinct game state (us winning and countering against the opposition). Gary can do a lot of things but so could most players if you give them enough opportunities - Ghezzal CAN shoot from distance, pick out passes, run with the ball etc it's just that he doesn't do it successfully enough. Gray is a better player than Ghezzal but hopefully you understand my point.

 

Gray can do lots of technically difficult things but he rarely performs close to what he's capable of and that's the problem.

 

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Gray isn't 19 anymore, how long can we keep thinking "there's a player in there" before we realise he's just not going to live up to his potential 

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How many players do we say this about? "he's shown some promise we should keep him" There's Gray, Ihenacho, Kapustka, in the past it was Tom Lawrence and others that have faded from memory. If we want to progress, season on season we have to sign new players and let some of the old ones go. If they're not going to make it here it's best for everyone that they move on to where they'll get more playing time.

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