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8 minutes ago, Kevin Russell said:

Surely that is just the frustration of fans seeing that he keeps getting picked despite relentless poor performances.

No excuse for the pelters though, having seen Under, who is the alternative in this injury hit season surely?

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For me he's a jack of all trades but a master of none. He's a sort of half decent squad player, good for 6-10 matches a season but just doesn't offer enough in terms of goal scoring  or creativity. In a way I feel a bit sorry for him. If he'd cost the same amount of money as say, Amartey, he wouldn't be getting this kind of fan reaction all the time. Yes he'd still get criticism but it wouldn't be as constant and he would be given more slack.

I'm not really certain why we bought him and we cetainly badly overpaid. I'm not denying he works hard or that he's a decent guy and a good team mate, but I just don't see what his position in the team really is. In all the positions he can play we simply have better options.

 

It isn't his fault that we overpaid, but for 30 million I'd expect more and as a club we need ot spend that kind of money better.

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35 minutes ago, Kevin Russell said:

It’s inevitable if certain players get preferential treatment - Under hasn’t been given anywhere near the same amount of minutes to prove himself. Exactly the point I’m making.

I see the point but disagree. If they were only under consideration for match day performances then fine, but they are not, no-one is.

Every single player is judged initially on their ability in training. I do feel there is a better option (Marc) but anyone will need rotating during this hectic period.

 

I have confessed my error in backing Ayoze over Kelechi though  

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1 hour ago, Kevin Russell said:

Surely that is just the frustration of fans seeing that he keeps getting picked despite relentless poor performances.

Slating him when he's done nothing wrong is frustration? How about slating the manager who keeps picking him?

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6 minutes ago, reynard said:

For me he's a jack of all trades but a master of none. He's a sort of half decent squad player, good for 6-10 matches a season but just doesn't offer enough in terms of goal scoring  or creativity. In a way I feel a bit sorry for him. If he'd cost the same amount of money as say, Amartey, he wouldn't be getting this kind of fan reaction all the time. Yes he'd still get criticism but it wouldn't be as constant and he would be given more slack.

I'm not really certain why we bought him and we cetainly badly overpaid. I'm not denying he works hard or that he's a decent guy and a good team mate, but I just don't see what his position in the team really is. In all the positions he can play we simply have better options.

 

It isn't his fault that we overpaid, but for 30 million I'd expect more and as a club we need ot spend that kind of money better.

Yes, there's a lot of truth in all that and whatever the actual sum paid, it's not the fault of the player. I think a lot of the frustration is due to what some supporters perceive to be preferential treatment over other squad members who are thought by some to be either a better option, or others that they deem worthy of a playing opportunity or a similar run of appearances to try and prove themselves.

 

Nobody ever liked a teachers pet or a brown nose and although they may seem to be poor analogies in one way, Perez does on the surface, seem to live a charmed life compared to others and it's perhaps fairly natural for that  to invoke feelings of resentment in some. This also is hardly the fault of the player either though  because the fact that he's picked, or played in a position that to some, seemingly doesn't suit him, is ultimately the manager's choice. We can only wonder at the reasons why and different theories are bound to be aired on a football forum but we we don't see his or other players in training. However, training isn't everything and some players flourish on a live stage. Under wasn't brilliant for example against Brighton, but neither was he afforded his opportunity in front of Ricardo and a in first choice team like Perez. Rodgers understandably has concerns over the latter's defensive qualities but, are those of Perez when played on the right that much an improvement and wouldn't Under's potential offensive qualities be more than ample compensation. There can sometimes be an obsession with safety and defensive qualities at the expense of trying to actually win a game. There again, it's not my head on the block should a game be lost.

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1 hour ago, Babylon said:

Slating him when he's done nothing wrong is frustration? How about slating the manager who keeps picking him?

People get frustrated to see him start over better alternatives - this boils over into slating him. Then he starts to make errors and it all gets worse. I think people are all reluctant to criticise BR because he is doing a very good job overall. He seems to have a blind spot where Perez is concerned, or he really believes he’ll turn it around.

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25 minutes ago, Kevin Russell said:

People get frustrated to see him start over better alternatives - this boils over into slating him. Then he starts to make errors and it all gets worse. I think people are all reluctant to criticise BR because he is doing a very good job overall. He seems to have a blind spot where Perez is concerned, or he really believes he’ll turn it around.

Please provide examples- this gets more and more like a witch hunt as time goes on. :blink:

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32 minutes ago, Kevin Russell said:

People get frustrated to see him start over better alternatives - this boils over into slating him. Then he starts to make errors and it all gets worse. I think people are all reluctant to criticise BR because he is doing a very good job overall. He seems to have a blind spot where Perez is concerned, or he really believes he’ll turn it around.

I'll criticise him. Brendan just stop it - now!!

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6 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

This may be true but, playing devil’s advocate, it could be that some fans have a blind spot when it comes to Perez. Rodgers is an elite manager, probably the best British manager in the world right now and he obviously sees something. As stated before, Perez’s stats for tackling and interceptions are, per 90 minutes, better than any other of our attacking player’s stats. Ok so tackling and intercepting isn’t exactly sexy or what most people want from an attacking player but they do show that he clearly has a role in the team, the fall guy if you will. Just like Okazaki. I’m not saying he is great and I’d probably rather have Albrighton play over him but the amount of stick he gets is disproportional and unjust. X 

Great post Rumble 👍

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22 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

This may be true but, playing devil’s advocate, it could be that some fans have a blind spot when it comes to Perez. Rodgers is an elite manager, probably the best British manager in the world right now and he obviously sees something. As stated before, Perez’s stats for tackling and interceptions are, per 90 minutes, better than any other of our attacking player’s stats. Ok so tackling and intercepting isn’t exactly sexy or what most people want from an attacking player but they do show that he clearly has a role in the team, the fall guy if you will. Just like Okazaki. I’m not saying he is great and I’d probably rather have Albrighton play over him but the amount of stick he gets is disproportional and unjust. X 

Good post, would also add to this that yes, Albrighton is better for us, but even he cannot play every 90 minutes in the current schedule, and who else do we realistically have?? Under flatters to deceive, then who apart from Marc?

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1 hour ago, RumbleFox said:

This may be true but, playing devil’s advocate, it could be that some fans have a blind spot when it comes to Perez. Rodgers is an elite manager, probably the best British manager in the world right now and he obviously sees something. As stated before, Perez’s stats for tackling and interceptions are, per 90 minutes, better than any other of our attacking player’s stats. Ok so tackling and intercepting isn’t exactly sexy or what most people want from an attacking player but they do show that he clearly has a role in the team, the fall guy if you will. Just like Okazaki. I’m not saying he is great and I’d probably rather have Albrighton play over him but the amount of stick he gets is disproportional and unjust. X 

I have tried to stay away from this thread because it is becoming a bit like kicking a puppy now and Perez looks like an unhappy player but I think that his post really needs countering.

 

I think that his wastefulness and the amount of times he is dispossessed more than counters any argument for tackles won.  I think that his tackling stats are up because of the amount of times he loses the ball first and that this stat in isolation without the context of all round statistics is misleading.  I think it is a sad state of affairs when we just accept that our inside forward gets the occasional tackle in and that's enough.  I know that's not really what you are saying, you are just trying to build some sort of defence but really you have little to work with.  Rodgers said many times last year that he wants to see more goals from our wide players.  Barnes has delivered, Ayoze continues to fail.  

 

51 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

This man needs a lengthy ban for the mere suggestion... How dare he????

 

:whistle:

What another one? 

 

Rumble has been 'self-isolating' more often than your average health worker.

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6 minutes ago, murphy said:

I have tried to stay away from this thread because it is becoming a bit like kicking a puppy now and Perez looks like an unhappy player but I think that his post really needs countering.

 

I think that his wastefulness and the amount of times he is dispossessed more than counters any argument for tackles won.  I think that his tackling stats are up because of the amount of times he loses the ball first and that this stat in isolation without the context of all round statistics is misleading.  I think it is a sad state of affairs when we just accept that our inside forward gets the occasional tackle in and that's enough.  I know that's not really what you are saying, you are just trying to build some sort of defence but really you have little to work with.  Rodgers said many times last year that he wants to see more goals from our wide players.  Barnes has delivered, Ayoze continues to fail.  

 

What another one? 

 

Rumble has been 'self-isolating' more often than your average health worker.

I’ve not said anywhere that he should even play, nor that I think he’s great. In fact I would not personally have him in my staring 11. All I’m saying is that he doesn’t quite deserve the stick he gets. Also do you have the stats to show how often he gets dispossessed and how many of his own tackles and interceptions are because of this? You may be right but it’s seems churlish to not even slightly consider his impressive tackling/intercepting stats just because they don’t fit your view. By the way I like your response and not trying to argue, I just feel a bit sorry for the guy. X 

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34 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

I’ve not said anywhere that he should even play, nor that I think he’s great. In fact I would not personally have him in my staring 11. All I’m saying is that he doesn’t quite deserve the stick he gets. Also do you have the stats to show how often he gets dispossessed and how many of his own tackles and interceptions are because of this? You may be right but it’s seems churlish to not even slightly consider his impressive tackling/intercepting stats just because they don’t fit your view. By the way I like your response and not trying to argue, I just feel a bit sorry for the guy. X 

No, I know you're not.  I just think that there is another side to the defensive argument that his higher than average wastefulness directly negates any gain which is why I felt the need to counter that.  I think his misplaced passes and dispossession stats where discussed a page or two back in this thread.  I don't have stats for second touch tackles because I don't think they exist and I am very lazy.  I only have the evidence of my unblinkered and 100% unbiased eyes.  :ph34r:

 

As for blind spots I have said before that this is entirely plausible, if not likely, given the amount of game time that he gets, but I can only give you my opinion and it seems to me that even his defence counsel can only come up the most meagre of offerings.

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2 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

Please provide examples- this gets more and more like a witch hunt as time goes on. :blink:

He started ahead of Kel upfront, ahead of Albrighton 

 

Are you saying he had earned is starting place at the moment? If so, I don’t agree - I’m not sure why that is a witch hunt? 

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2 hours ago, RumbleFox said:

This may be true but, playing devil’s advocate, it could be that some fans have a blind spot when it comes to Perez. Rodgers is an elite manager, probably the best British manager in the world right now and he obviously sees something. As stated before, Perez’s stats for tackling and interceptions are, per 90 minutes, better than any other of our attacking player’s stats. Ok so tackling and intercepting isn’t exactly sexy or what most people want from an attacking player but they do show that he clearly has a role in the team, the fall guy if you will. Just like Okazaki. I’m not saying he is great and I’d probably rather have Albrighton play over him but the amount of stick he gets is disproportional and unjust. X 

I agree the amount (and the childish insulting kind) of stick he gets is wrong. I do not think he justifies the level of faith that Brendan places in him. I think Brendan is a fantastic manager, but I don’t think that means he is correct on every single point; and I don’t think that means we as fans can’t question any decisions he makes. Otherwise this forum would be pretty quiet.

 

I maintain 100% that Perez shouldn’t be given as many minutes as he is, but I do value his potential contribution as a utility player in the squad.

 

I also felt trying to build our attack around one of our lesser players as a ‘false 9’ was a terrible idea and worked very badly in practice. I also didn’t like how it appeared Perez was being treated preferentially to Kel, despite the latter contributing more in my opinion.

 

I stand by the positions I have taken on all of the above, but I would be delighted if Perez proved me wrong and became a dynamic and more effective player. If this happens and he finds form on any kind of consistent basis I will be the first on here to give him credit. 
 

X

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22 minutes ago, Kevin Russell said:

He started ahead of Kel upfront, ahead of Albrighton 

 

Are you saying he had earned is starting place at the moment? If so, I don’t agree - I’m not sure why that is a witch hunt? 

Do not think he has ever earnt his place, and although I was guilty of giving him more time than he probably deserved, his flexibility and effort, may have meant this was always more likely than some.

Of course the schedule and injury situation may have all increased his game time, as if Praet had been fit, or Under better regarded by the coaching team, it is likely he would have played less.

 

Yes, witch-hunt was the wrong term but the bile in the match threads, and at times in this thread, is embarrassing and despite his obvious short comings, undeserved.

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56 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Do not think he has ever earnt his place, and although I was guilty of giving him more time than he probably deserved, his flexibility and effort, may have meant this was always more likely than some.

Of course the schedule and injury situation may have all increased his game time, as if Praet had been fit, or Under better regarded by the coaching team, it is likely he would have played less.

 

Yes, witch-hunt was the wrong term but the bile in the match threads, and at times in this thread, is embarrassing and despite his obvious short comings, undeserved.

I agree the abuse is wrong, and it’s no excuse but I do think that is partially down to frustration that he gets more time than others.

 

I find myself getting annoyed when I see his name in the starting line up or watch him play, when I feel it’s not on merit.However, I’m not one for personal insults and I think it’s poor when people resort to this.

 

I do think he has a role to play for us and I actually think he is a useful squad player

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1 hour ago, murphy said:

No, I know you're not.  I just think that there is another side to the defensive argument that his higher than average wastefulness directly negates any gain which is why I felt the need to counter that.  I think his misplaced passes and dispossession stats where discussed a page or two back in this thread.  I don't have stats for second touch tackles because I don't think they exist and I am very lazy.  I only have the evidence of my unblinkered and 100% unbiased eyes.  :ph34r:

 

As for blind spots I have said before that this is entirely plausible, if not likely, given the amount of game time that he gets, but I can only give you my opinion and it seems to me that even his defence counsel can only come up the most meagre of offerings.

Aye I don’t necessarily disagree with you. My own personal opinion is that there’s a good player in there but that either A. Not quite good enough for where we’re at or B. He’s not being utilised correctly. He presses well and some of link up play is great. I think he’s technically a good player but ultimately he’s going to be judged on numbers and in this regard he hasn’t been good enough. Great hair though. X 

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