England squad for Euro 2020 qualifiers against the Czech Republic and Bulgaria - Chilwell and Maddison

[Nicolo Barella 2,344]

1 hour ago, FIF said:

It's good that English fans are finally aware of racism but also rather hypocritical considering how insidiously racist they were in the recent past. If English fans think that racism doesn't still exist in English football then they are fooling themselves. This board has cracked down exceptionally well on racism but there are still many posts that exhibit it. Perhaps the English can also make a greater effort on the homophobic side and then maybe they can attack the rampant sexism that exists before they scoff so much at the Bulgarians/others. Even this enlightened site is plagued by sexism.

Sometimes a hypocrite is just someone in the process of changing their mind

[Voll Blau 8,655]

2 hours ago, FIF said:

It's good that English fans are finally aware of racism but also rather hypocritical considering how insidiously racist they were in the recent past. If English fans think that racism doesn't still exist in English football then they are fooling themselves. This board has cracked down exceptionally well on racism but there are still many posts that exhibit it. Perhaps the English can also make a greater effort on the homophobic side and then maybe they can attack the rampant sexism that exists before they scoff so much at the Bulgarians/others. Even this enlightened site is plagued by sexism.

Awful take. An entire England end calls out Bulgarian fascists en masse throughout the game, but we shouldn't "scoff" because some racists, sexists and homophobes still knock about at games here and *shock horror* on the internet? Well that's hardly unique to this country sadly, and I don't think you'd see supporters of any other national teams openly chanting "you racist bastards" like last night. For once, we deserve a bit of credit as a nation.

 

Not a lot makes me proud to be English these days, but the actions of our fans, players and manager last night definitely did.

Edited 15 October 2019 by Voll Blau

[Sol thewall Bamba 6,616]

1 hour ago, adam95581 said:

Walking off the pitch, making them play behind closed doors or giving them a fine won’t solve anything. All it will do is mask the issues. 
 

Fundamentally, it comes down to education. Take the manager as an example - for him to come out and say he didn’t hear it is ridiculous and gives the racists the ‘ok’ to do it again. It’s institutionalised and that needs to change before it can be eradicated from football. 

Those blokes were doing what they were doing for two reasons. Firstly they ARE racists, they've just been raised to believe a certain ideology which is deeply entrenched in certain cultures. No UEFA sanctions will change that. 

 

Secondly, and this is what a lot of people are missing it seems, is that they're deliberately doing it to bring fines and sanctions on the Bulgarian FA. A lot of people there feel their FA is massively corrupt and will do anything they can to damage their reputation. It's been going on for years and again UEFA won't be able to change people's mindsets when they feel the Bulgarian FA and UEFA are in collusion. The manager denies he hears anything and the Bulgarian FA back him to shut down the people trying to damage them. 

 

When those two things align and these people have a global audience to play up to, they'll take it with both hands as we saw last night. 

 

Not really sure what the answer is other than to ban sets of supporters completely but that doesn't fix the actual issue, it just removes it from sight. 

Edited 15 October 2019 by Sol thewall Bamba

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Awful take. An entire England end calls out Bulgarian fascists en masse throughout the game, but we shouldn't "scoff" because some racists, sexists and homophobes still knock about at games here and *shock horror* on the internet? Well that's hardly unique to this country sadly, and I don't think you'd see supporters of any other national teams openly chanting "you racist bastards" like last night. For once, we deserve a bit of credit as a nation.

 

Not a lot makes me proud to be English these days, but the actions of our fans, players and manager last night definitely did.

I thought you were around in the 80's in England. The fans sang a lot worse than that even LCFC supporters and even to their own players. 

 

my point in case you missed it is that the English were just as bad or even worse and most have changed, no reason that shouldn't be the case for Bulgarians who haven't benefitted from your multi-cultural education. To then not realise that other forms of discrimination are rife in England and football does make us hypocritical.

 

but carry on with the superiority complex, it'll help us all long term. 

 

edit: and calling people "bastards" really isn't going to help the situation is it? Can't be proud of that, myself.

Edited 15 October 2019 by Guest

[filbertway 2,005]

I find it quite funny that nobody really cares, but because of how social media works you've got

5% of people pretending to care,

75% of people who sound like they care because they say that 5% of the people care

20% who manage to not care

 

*figures entirely fictional.

 

^ this is aimed at the whole Maddison thing.

Edited 15 October 2019 by filbertway

[Ric Flair 15,783]

12 minutes ago, FIF said:

I thought you were around in the 80's in England. The fans sang a lot worse than that even LCFC supporters and even to their own players. 

 

my point in case you missed it is that the English were just as bad or even worse and most have changed, no reason that shouldn't be the case for Bulgarians who haven't benefitted from your multi-cultural education. To then not realise that other forms of discrimination are rife in England and football does make us hypocritical.

 

but carry on with the superiority complex, it'll help us all long term. 

 

edit: and calling people "bastards" really isn't going to help the situation is it? Can't be proud of that, myself.

Fair points, but how did fans/society in England change? They changed because there was a REAL concerted effort to stamp it out and educate people that it is disgusting and wrong, i'm not so sure there's the appetite or belief that that's what they want to do in countries like Bulgaria. So when is it going to change? @Sol thewall Bamba has hit the nail on the head above.

[Voll Blau 8,655]

1 hour ago, FIF said:

I thought you were around in the 80's in England. The fans sang a lot worse than that even LCFC supporters and even to their own players. 

 

my point in case you missed it is that the English were just as bad or even worse and most have changed, no reason that shouldn't be the case for Bulgarians who haven't benefitted from your multi-cultural education. To then not realise that other forms of discrimination are rife in England and football does make us hypocritical.

 

but carry on with the superiority complex, it'll help us all long term. 

1. I wasn't around in the 80s, even if my hairline these days makes me feel like I ought to have been. I am well aware of how grim it could be at Filbo and elsewhere.

2. I don't have a superiority complex. Like I said, very little actually makes me proud to be English these days and I don't consider myself above anyone else because of the patch of land on which I was born, or the relative privileges I've enjoyed because of that.

3. I'm well aware of the relative lack of education and cultural awareness found in parts of Eastern Europe, having worked in this country with Eastern Europeans. Some displayed some shocking ignorance at times, but weren't openly making fascist salutes or monkey sounds at black or Asian colleagues like those nobheads were last night. Simply blaming a lack of education for the behaviour last night is ignorant on your part, and I think Sol's post pretty well sums up the motivation for it.

4. There's a time and a place to remind ourselves of the problems we have with fans in this country, but you're barking up the wrong tree if you think it's on a night where thousands of England national team supporters openly attacked racism from opposition fans. It's a fairly unprecedented move in international fixtures I'd have thought.

Edited 15 October 2019 by Voll Blau

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Fair points, but how did fans/society in England change? They changed because there was a REAL concerted effort to stamp it out and educate people that it is disgusting and wrong, i'm not so sure there's the appetite or belief that that's what they want to do in countries like Bulgaria. So when is it going to change? @Sol thewall Bamba has hit the nail on the head above.

They'll only change through education and understanding. They won't change through being called "bastards". I agree that the team should be banned from the competition and other competitions - that may make a difference, but not without education. If we go along these lines should we also ban nations who are or have homophobic chants and thoughts or sexist,etc... what about human rights violators? I guess FIFA (already a corrupt institution) should clearly lay out what is and isn't acceptable and then also the penalties for breaking these guidelines - and then of course enforce them.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

1. I wasn't around in the 80s, even if my hairline these days makes me feel like I ought to have been. I am well aware of how grim it could be at Filbo and elsewhere.

2. I don't have a superiority complex. Like I said, very little actually makes me proud to be English these days and I don't consider myself above anyone else because of the patch of land on which I was born, or the relative privileges I've enjoyed because of that.

3. I'm well aware of the relative lack of education and cultural awareness found in parts of Eastern Europe, having worked in this country with Eastern Europeans. Some displayed some shocking ignorance at times, but weren't openly making fascist salutes or monkey sounds at black or Asian colleagues like those nobheads were last night. Simply blaming a lack of education for the behaviour last night is ignorant on your part, and I think Sol's post pretty well sums up the motivation for it.

4. There's a time and a place to remind ourselves of the problems we have with fans in this country, but you're barking up the wrong tree if you think it's on a night were thousands of England national team supporters openly attacked racism from opposition fans. It's a fairly unprecedented move in international fixtures I'd have thought.

Your first two points are coherent and intelligent and I apologise for the superior comment it wasn't really a personal comment more a comment about all of us, but rushed so easily misunderstood.

 

The third and fourth I'll just disagree with and leave it there. I am just as wrong as everyone else with most of what I posit.

[SheppyFox 3,206]

It will take generations to fix racism, unfortunately the entire planet was at some point or indeed still is racist. There was once a time in Britain where the vast majority of people were against any ethnic minorities. That doesn’t go away over a few years because the government says it should. It’s going to take a long long time to breed these fascist sorts out.

[HighPeakFox 8,255]

I agree with everyone, basically. I truly hope our travelling fans don't have far right haters / pseudo patriots amongst them. 

[turtmcfly 1,611]

40 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Awful take. An entire England end calls out Bulgarian fascists en masse throughout the game, but we shouldn't "scoff" because some racists, sexists and homophobes still knock about at games here and *shock horror* on the internet? Well that's hardly unique to this country sadly, and I don't think you'd see supporters of any other national teams openly chanting "you racist bastards" like last night. For once, we deserve a bit of credit as a nation.

 

Not a lot makes me proud to be English these days, but the actions of our fans, players and manager last night definitely did.

 

Clearly there's a positive (perhaps too slow, perhaps stuttering) trajectory to this. Let's hope sections of the self-same support has grown out of its need to sing about the IRA and the Luftwaffe, or that if they haven't they get in-game pelters from their fellow supporters.

[Guest]

A few noted racist incidents in English football over the last 12 months:

 

Quote

 

A North West Counties League game between Congleton Town and Padiham in October 2018 was abandoned in the second-half by the referee after the Padiham goalkeeper received racial abuse.^[235]

In October 2018 Wilfried Zaha was the victim of racist abuse and death threats following a match.^[236]

In December 2018, a Tottenham Hotspur supporter was fined £500 and banned for four years for throwing a banana skin at Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang during Arsenal's 4-2 victory in the North London derby in which Aubameyang scored twice.^[237]

In January 2019, Crystal Palace goalkeeper, Wayne Hennessey, denied making a Nazi salute after a picture of him was posted on Instagram by a Max Meyer, a teammate of his. The picture was taken after Palace won their third round FA Cup tie against Grimsby Town. In the picture, Hennessey has one arm raised while the other is over his mouth, much like that of the Nazi salute. However, Hennessey has claimed that he, “waved and shouted at the person takin the picture to get on with it”^[238] and “put my hand over my mouth to make the sound carry”.^[238] Hennessey won’t receive any official punishment for the incident as the FA’s regulatory commission has stated, “when cross-examined about this Mr Hennessey displayed a very considerable – one might say even lamentable – degree of ignorance about anything to do with Hitler, fascism and the Nazi regime.”^[239] Although he has come under fire from Kick It Out, which is English football’s equality and inclusion organization, and they have stated in a tweet by their official account, “If Wayne Hennessey doesn’t know what a Nazi salute is, or understand its horrifying wider implications, then it’s vital that he receives appropriate education as a consequence.”^[240]

In January 2019, women's player Renée Hector said that an opponent had made monkey noises towards her during a match.^[241] In February 2019 Sophie Jones was charged by the Football Association with racially abusing Hector.^[242] In March 2019 Jones was found guilty and banned for five matches.^[243]

In February 2019 West Ham United said they were investigating a video which allegedly showed fans racially abusing Mohamed Salah, including for being Muslim.^[244] The club then referred the matter to the police.^[245]

Later that month Kick It Out chairman Lord Ouseley said the authorities were "dysfunctional" in dealing with racism in football,^[246] whilst player Michail Antonio suggested that clubs whose fans engage in racial abuse should be deducted points.^[247]

In February 2019 Millwall were charged by the Football Association over alleged racist chanting by their fans during a FA Cup game against Everton in January.^[248] Leeds United were also investigated for alleged racism of their fans.^[249]

In March 2019, Philip Billing suffered racial abuse on social media; the matter was reported to police.^[250]

In April 2019, a number of players were subjected to racist abuse on social media, including Charlton Athletic players Lyle Taylor,^[251] Wigan Athletic player Nathan Byrne,^[252] and Watford players Troy Deeney, Adrian Mariappa and Christian Kabasele.^[253] Later that month Chuks Aneke was the subject of a racist meme,^[254] and Manchester United captain Ashley Young was also racially abused on social media.^[255][256]

Later that month an amateur cup final in Leicestershire was abandoned due to racist abuse,^[257] with the victim being subjected to a six-match ban,^[258] whilst Danny Rose said he was looking forward to ending his football career due to racism.^[259] Later that month he said he hoped governing bodies would take more action to eradicate racism in football.^[260] That same month Chelsea chairman Bruce Buck said the solution to the issue was education,^[261] whilst Raheem Sterling said walking off the pitch in response to racism was not ideal.^[262]

In April 2019 Kalidou Koulibaly was the victim of racist abuse from an apparent Arsenal fan during a match between the two teams.^[263]

In April 2019, former player Jamie Lawrence spoke out against racism in football, revealing that during his playing career he had been racially abused by one of his own teammates.^[264]

In April 2019 The Guardian released a "special investigation into the racism crisis [in English football]" which "uncover[ed] anger, despair and a warning that there will be 'an explosion' unless the problem is tackled".^[265]

In April 2019 British Asian footballers spoke out about the racist abuse they had encountered,^[266] and the following month the vice chair of the Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic Football Forum said that child players as young as seven years old were regularly the subject of racial slurs from not only spectators, but also from opposing players, coaches and managers.^[267]

Later in May 2019 Emile Heskey's wife said there were insufficient opportunities for black players to become coaches.^[268] Raheem Sterling also Called for tougher punishments.^[269]

In June 2019 the English Football League introduced a rule compared to the Rooney Rule.^[270]

In July 2019, Kick It Out reported that reports of racist abuse rose by 43% during the 2018–19 football season.^[271] Later that month Chelsea issued a lifetime ban against a fan who had racially abused Raheem Sterling in December 2018.^[272]

On 31 July 2019 the FA increased the minimum ban for racism to six games.^[273]

In August 2019, Fulham player Cyrus Christie accused a Fulham fan of assaulting his sister and the fan's wife of using racist language at the club's opening game of the season, a 1–0 loss at Barnsley.^[274] Later that month, the FA was told it had to modernise.^[275] In the following days, Chelsea Forward Tammy Abraham faced racist abuse over social media, after missing the decisive spot kick against Liverpool in the Uefa Super Cup. The actions were later condemned by Chelsea club spokesperson who said: “We are disgusted with the abhorrent posts we have seen on social media.”^[276]

On 6 August 2019, Liverpool player Mohamed Salah was subjected to racist comments on social media by an Everton fan, who was arrested by police and later sentenced to six weeks in jail.^[277]

In August 2019, Yakou Méïté spoke out about racist abuse he received on social media.^[278] He said he chose to do so due to the impact it had on players.^[279]

Later that month, Paul Pogba suffered racist abuse on social media after missing a penalty during match on 19 August 2019.^[280][281] The abuse was condemned by players including Ryan Giggs,^[282] and Twitter announced they would meet with Pogba's club Manchester United and the Kick it Out organisation,^[283] after Phil Neville called for a social media boycott in protest.^[284] Pogba's Manchester United teammate Marcus Rashford was also racially abused on social media,^[285] and ex-footballer Garth Crooks said that unless something would do there could be aincident between a player and a fan, similar to Eric Cantona's kung-fu kick on an opposition fan in 1995.^[286]

In August 2019 Yan Dhanda said that the racism he has encountered as a British Asian footballer inspires him to play his best.^[287]

In September 2019 the Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic Football Forum released a report which said that child players were being racially abused.^[288]

In September 2019 Jadon Sancho spoke out against racism in football.^[289] On 7 September, Raheem Sterling was racially abused by a fan at England's Euro 2020 qualifier against Bulgaria at Wembley. Following which, he was removed from the stadium and later taken to a north London police station on suspicion of public order offence. However, he was released with no further action.^[290]

In September 2019 Tammy Abraham said his mother had cried after he had been subjected to racist abuse in a match.^[291]

In September 2019 new Stevenage manager Mark Sampson was accused of using racist language by a former coach at the club. The club denied the accusations, while the FA said they would investigate.^[292]

Later that month the Home Office said that hate crime incidents at football matches increased by 47% during the 2018–19 season from the previous season.^[293]

In September 2019 Peter Beardsley was suspended from football for all football-related activity for 32 weeks after being found guilty by the FA of racially abusing players.^[294] Later that month, in a match between Hartlepool United and Dover Athetic, both team's managers said they considered taking their players off the pitch following racist abuse from Hartlepool fans aimed at Dover player Inih Effiong.^[295][296] Dover said they wanted action taken.^[297]

A few days later Bernardo Silva was accused of being racist about Manchester City teammate Benjamin Mendy following a tweet; the FA wrote to Manchester City for its comments.^[298] Manchester City's manager Pep Guardiola said punishing Silva for his comments would be a "mistake",^[299] and Silva was defended by teammate Raheem Sterling.^[300] In October 2019 Silva was charged by the FA.^[301] He had 7 days to respond, but was given an extension.^[302]

In September 2019, Leeds goalkeeper Kiko Casilla was accused of racially abusing Charlton forward Jonathan Leko in a match between the two teams; the FA said they would investigate.^[303]

In October 2019 three fans of Brighton & Hove Albion were investigated in relation to two separate incidents at their stadium.^[304]

In October 2019, a video purportedly showing racist chants from Aston Villa fans about players Marvelous Nakamba and John McGinn surfaced, and was condemned by the club.^[305] Later that month Wilfried Zaha was sent racial abuse on social media after missing a penalty in a match.^[306]

 

^{We probably still have a way to go.}

[Facecloth 10,826]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50054475

 

This will probably get Bulgaria in more trouble than the racism. FIFA don't like government interference in Football Associations.

[mozartfox 4,267]

The facts are that in some parts of Eastern Europe racism is part of an Nations' DNA.  Yes of course it exists in the UK (& Austria for that matter), but to a much lesser extent and not so blatant.  Bulgaria need removing from all forms of International Football competitions for 12 months, which may force the innocent Bulgarian Fans to stand up to this Scum.  There are plenty of Photographs of last night and you would hope the Police will deal with the culprits. 

[Stadt 11,992]

Bulgaria is basically a mafia state, when the government and its institutions clean their act up, education and combatting racism can follow but at the minute banning them from international competitions is going to do very little.

[SheppyFox 3,206]

29 minutes ago, Stadt said:

Bulgaria is basically a mafia state, when the government and its institutions clean their act up, education and combatting racism can follow but at the minute banning them from international competitions is going to do very little.

🇷🇺 

[Hammo 1,416]

Can anyone please enlighten me?

 

Obviously the media have been all over what happened in Sofia last night - and understandably so - but no one it seems, given this touchiest of subjects, has dared to ask, or seek to clarify, what the result of the game would have been had England walked off.

 

Did they stay on because they were 4-0 up? Would their decision have been different if they’d been losing? Would they have been awarded a statutory victory whatever the scoreline at the time? Or would the match have been replayed elsewhere? Questions, questions...

 

The act of unilaterally abandoning a match - for whatever reason, however righteous or worthy - would inevitably set a dangerous precedent.

[Dorkingfox 300]

6 hours ago, FIF said:

A few noted racist incidents in English football over the last 12 months:

 

^{We probably still have a way to go.}

There is far more ethnic diversity in the UK than in Bulgaria and racism can be subjected in many ways based on religion, ethnicity, colour and diversity. It can be white on black, black on white, white on white and black on black, then their are asians and other cultures, it is not all anglo saxon white people as many like to beleive. I have worked around the world and the countries I have encountered the most racial situations are mostly Eastern European, Greece, Denmark and many parts of Asia. In Africa, it can be cultural, religious, tribal and colour. In the USA is where I have been the most shocked at the blatant racial hatred, mainly to black people and indigenous indians, by all cultures, Latino, Germanic, basically all cultures living within the US. The problem is endemic thoughout the world.

Edited 15 October 2019 by Dorkingfox

[Sol thewall Bamba 6,616]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50054475

 

So the nazis got what they wanted. Nice one. 

 

So the next time they want to remove someone in power they know they've just got to do the same as they did last night. Solves fvck all. 

[Manwell Pablo 5,090]

 

          

6 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

Awful take. An entire England end calls out Bulgarian fascists en masse throughout the game, but we shouldn't "scoff" because some racists, sexists and homophobes still knock about at games here and *shock horror* on the internet? Well that's hardly unique to this country sadly, and I don't think you'd see supporters of any other national teams openly chanting "you racist bastards" like last night. For once, we deserve a bit of credit as a nation.

 

Not a lot makes me proud to be English these days, but the actions of our fans, players and manager last night definitely did.

 

Good post sir. We should be proud of last night, I've seen a fair few view points that were perhaps a bit quick to forget that we are far from rid of the problem ourselves and were a bit self righteous in "all these shitty nations should be kicked out of UEFA" way which I don't agree with, but I think the fact the fans management and players black or not pulled together shows how far we have come.

 

last night but that said we should not feel guilty about our recent past and perhaps be proud of how we have dealt with it over recent years to the extent it is only really something that happens lower down the levels now where it can escape the radar. Even then the incidences at Hartlepool etc were well reported 

 

I would ignore him, he's made it clear over the last week he is as much a part of the problem that is racism by totally trivialising the matter by essentially accusing anyone who disagrees with his view points on a certain player in our squad as having an racial motivation which is clearly nonsense and he is clearly unworthy of being taken seriously in a discussion around the matter. 

 

The less right wing morons that were on the terraces and the less FIF's we have making their lives easier the better.

 

ity

[Dorkingfox 300]

Eufa have charged both the the Bulgarian FA and the English one after last nights game, Bulgaria for racism and the English one for whistling during the Bulgarian national anthem and failing to bring enough stewards, strange this, as I thought it happened when both were played/sang?

 

Edited 15 October 2019 by Dorkingfox

[PaulW 361]

6 minutes ago, Dorkingfox said:

Eufa have charged both the the Bulgarian FA and the English one after last nights game, Bulgaria for racism and the English one for whistling during the Bulgarian national anthem and failing to bring enough stewards, strange this, as I thought it happened when both were played/sang?

 

The English Anthem was virtually drowned out by catcalling & chanting from the home so-called supporters.

 

Edited 15 October 2019 by PaulW
typo

[StanSP 20,320]

Rodgers speaks about Maddison's 'behaviour'. 

Still can't see the mistake Maddison made but oh well. 

 

 

[Cardiff_Fox 5,074]

On 15/10/2019 at 12:31, Hammo said:

 

Did they stay on because they were 4-0 up? Would their decision have been different if they’d been losing? Would they have been awarded a statutory victory whatever the scoreline at the time? Or would the match have been replayed elsewhere? Questions, questions...

 

Very poignant questions.

 

Parts of the media have said that at half-time, the vibe was that they wanted to hammer Bulgaria. 

[Nalis 4,104]

2 hours ago, StanSP said:

Rodgers speaks about Maddison's 'behaviour'. 

Still can't see the mistake Maddison made but oh well. 

 

 

I'm patenting the headline Casino Royale ahead of his hat trick against Real Madrid in the CL next season...