Jump to content
happy85

Ben Chilwell

Recommended Posts

17 minutes ago, messerschmitt said:

I've played over 30 years in the City League and veterans league, I also rate Chilwell as an excellent defender.

When the whistle went I must have gone into another mode. I didn't notice or care if any opponents were ex or future team mates, it was 100% the football, I also had my leg broken, it was all serious stuff for all who played but after the final whistle we all went to the pub and all was forgotten. The older players taught me what happens on the pitch stays on the pitch.

I have no problems what happens after the final whistle. Player react differently to defeat it doesn't mean it hurts less. 

I'd have more of a problem with Chilwell if his performance levels had dropped but they clearly haven't.

..He could not have afforded to underperform in that game!!!

 Potential club looking to buy him, cameras dissecting every reactions and the club asking for a record fee for a Full Back.....he had to perform!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, AKCJ said:

I've yet to see an average player go for £50m.

 

I would also say it's a reflection of you if you don't rate Maguire. He's clearly one of the best centre halves in the league, which is why he went for £80m.

He went for £80m because United think spending guarantees good signings. Maguire’s a good centre back with some very strong and very weak characteristics. We sold him and have two better centre backs playing. Kepa went a similar fee and he’s toss - the money involved in a signing isn’t that strong an indicator of quality.
 

There’s obviously fewer leftbacks out there (only two or three LBs per team and fewer left footed players in general) so the value of average-good leftbacks is inflated. Chilwell is one of the better LBs in the league but that’s a reflection on the league rather than him being a great LB. 

 

I doubt anybody’s would say Luke Shaw is one of the better fullbacks but he outperforms Chilwell stats wiseD62C233E-8987-412B-944C-944DF6ED5567.thumb.jpeg.71eb47b02c46bfce43a0e930efaea656.jpeg

Chilwell’s tacke/dribbled past % is particularly concerning 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Stadt said:

He went for £80m because United think spending guarantees good signings. Maguire’s a good centre back with some very strong and very weak characteristics. We sold him and have two better centre backs playing. Kepa went a similar fee and he’s toss - the money involved in a signing isn’t that strong an indicator of quality.
 

There’s obviously fewer leftbacks out there (only two or three LBs per team and fewer left footed players in general) so the value of average-good leftbacks is inflated. Chilwell is one of the better LBs in the league but that’s a reflection on the league rather than him being a great LB. 

 

I doubt anybody’s would say Luke Shaw is one of the better fullbacks but he outperforms Chilwell stats wiseD62C233E-8987-412B-944C-944DF6ED5567.thumb.jpeg.71eb47b02c46bfce43a0e930efaea656.jpeg

Chilwell’s tacke/dribbled past % is particularly concerning 

Excellent defender according to some :whistle:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, sdb said:

I think this thread optimises lcfc fans. We craved talented players from our academy for years. We finally get one. He's England's left back and Chelsea are prepared to pay tens of millions of pounds to buy him. Imagine that 10 years ago. Half of you were creaming yourselves over Joe Mattock and wondering how good Alan Sheehan might become.

 

But Ben Chilwell isn't good enough. First he could only attack and not defend. Then he starts improving massively defensively, but he rarely scores or assists (surely full backs in a team who score most of their goals through the centre and on the break should be weighing in with massive numbers?!). Apparently he must do both. Just not good enough.

 

Since the restart he's been our best outfield player and scored our only goal. Defensively we've looked solid too. But he laughs with his mate after a match. Forget his 3 or 4 team mates who didn't put a shift in in the first place, it's Chilwell who should get the fans fury! 

 

No wonder he wants to leave. If he didnt already, he'll know now. He plays for a set of fans, of whom 30% actively criticise and discourage him. And they'll all be booing him when he returns, like he's some sort of judas! Whilst no doubt criticising our new, inferior full back.

 

It's all a bit ridiculous. He's clearly a very nice lad and very good player. Maybe let's support the boy, and the team.

Just bringing this to the top of the forum as the nail has been hit firmly on the head here. 

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the weekend he certainly wasn't one of our worst performers, but neither did he do particularly well. Nor in the Brighton game. Nor Watford, in spite of a fine goal (in fact the commentators were pointing out that Sarr had exposed his shortcomings for much of the match... so it's amazing how a goal changes everything!). As a team we've been poor, and it's wide of the mark to say he's been anything other than poor too. We can't go comparing him to sub-standard left backs which other clubs will be looking to replace and say 'well, he's better than them', and we can't go comparing his poor performances now to his even worse performances before the break, and kid ourselves that that's good enough.

 

As for people saying we'll be stuffed when he's gone - well, we're on a huge slide so maybe you're right, but Chilwell's absence won't be the cause of our demise. His performances have been of limited benefit to the side since December. There have been various articles in the press to this effect too, so it's not just a case of Leicester fans being hysterical.

 

And, if people worry about his application, don't forget that he was actually dropped for missing a team meeting which was supposed to address, in no small measure, his own errors in the previous game. So, while I couldn't care less about him laughing and joking after a match, I do appreciate that some fans and footballers don't like to see that sort of thing after a loss, and it's a little different when it's a player who's been under-performing, and whose application has come into question. His words after the Watford game have also stuck in my ear, when he proclaimed that we were the better, fitter side and deserved the win, which wasn't what I'd seen at all. So a little humility might not hurt him.

 

Finally, if you're panic-stricken over losing Chilwell, it's worth looking at our results in recent times with and without him. We've won 2 of our last 12 EPL games with him in the side, picking up 11 points along the way, and getting knocked out of two cup competitions. Maybe it's a case of scapegoating, but in nearly all of those games he was rated on here as one of our three worse players. We won all three of the EPL games he didn't participate in over that same period of time, with significantly improved performances from both the replacement left backs and the left-sided attacking players. 

 

That definitely doesn't prove that we're a better team without him. After all, he played throughout the spectacular run that preceded that (even though yet another quick glance at our match ratings, for what they're worth, reminds us that we were far from convinced that he was playing a starring role). However, it does show us that, at a time when sides appear to have 'learnt' how to play against us, there's no reason to believe we're a trickier proposition with Chilwell in the side. He has to do a lot better if we're to save our season, and - beyond that - a lot better if he wants to live up to the hype.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, sdb said:

I think this thread optimises lcfc fans. We craved talented players from our academy for years. We finally get one. He's England's left back and Chelsea are prepared to pay tens of millions of pounds to buy him. Imagine that 10 years ago. Half of you were creaming yourselves over Joe Mattock and wondering how good Alan Sheehan might become.

 

But Ben Chilwell isn't good enough. First he could only attack and not defend. Then he starts improving massively defensively, but he rarely scores or assists (surely full backs in a team who score most of their goals through the centre and on the break should be weighing in with massive numbers?!). Apparently he must do both. Just not good enough.

 

Since the restart he's been our best outfield player and scored our only goal. Defensively we've looked solid too. But he laughs with his mate after a match. Forget his 3 or 4 team mates who didn't put a shift in in the first place, it's Chilwell who should get the fans fury! 

 

No wonder he wants to leave. If he didnt already, he'll know now. He plays for a set of fans, of whom 30% actively criticise and discourage him. And they'll all be booing him when he returns, like he's some sort of judas! Whilst no doubt criticising our new, inferior full back.

 

It's all a bit ridiculous. He's clearly a very nice lad and very good player. Maybe let's support the boy, and the team.

The same people who were bigging up Sheehan and Mattock aren't necessarily the ones criticising Chilwell. And they were talking about players for a lower second tier, upper third tier side, not for a side that wants to finish top four.

 

I don't believe he's been one of our best players since the restart - the CBs would get that vote for me, especially Evans - but you're right in saying he's been far from the worst. However it's still not good enough, and that's been the case with Chilwell for a lot longer than it's been the case with Ndidi, Vardy, Barnes etc.

 

I agree that, when we're at the game, we should be fully behind the players. And we should see Chilwell as a player who has a lot going for him, if he continues to work on his game. But I also agree with some of the more balanced criticism on here. And - while I'm happy to accept that fans can come out with some hugely counter-productive rubbish - I can't accept that the biggest problem surrounding Chilwell at the moment isn't Chilwell himself, but rather those pesky fans who complain when he doesn't do his job.  You could say that about a whole host of others too, but in his case the poor form - and it remains poor, from what I have seen, regardless of whether it's worse than this guy's form, or better than that guy's  - has gone on for too long.

 

If he is set for a bigger club, he'll either up his game, or find those fans a lot less forgiving than our own.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

People think our fans are bad, I'd love to see how that reaction would go down with Chelsea fans after a quarter final loss. We are no saints by any stretch but it's a myth we're any worse than the others really.

We're fairly mild when it comes to treatment of players. Pantomime booing and groaning we do very well, serious criticism at the matches isn't really our thing.

 

Even on here we've got a split of opinions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Corky said:

We're fairly mild when it comes to treatment of players. Pantomime booing and groaning we do very well, serious criticism at the matches isn't really our thing.

 

Even on here we've got a split of opinions.

Don't get me wrong we are far from perfect - some of the booing within the ground I think is pathetic, I definitely draw the line before that.

 

This place I think people keep missing the point. I roundly see people on here getting criticised for making criticism - is the whole objective of this site not to discuss things, ideas, players etc... I don't get the uber positivity, yes, inside the ground be positive and get behind the team, but the point of this place is to discuss things. What is the point in just banging being uber positive about everything. It's a boring read and nobody learns anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, AKCJ said:

I've yet to see an average player go for £50m.

 

I would also say it's a reflection of you if you don't rate Maguire. He's clearly one of the best centre halves in the league, which is why he went for £80m.

Plenty.... John Stones, Benjamin Mendy, Mangala, Kyle Walker...

 

Maguire is average. Man Utd are one of the biggest clubs in the world, could have done for loads of defenders better than him for that price. De Ligt went for nearly £20m less and he's much better than Maguire. For £80m I'd want a centre half with better awareness given his lack of pace. I've seen enough Man Utd defenders through the years who were better than average (good)... Ferdinand, Vidic, Stamm... Maguire is nowhere near these and never will be.

 

It's not the players fault nowadays but it's reflection of the market. With how much money there is now in the PL, clubs like us can hold out for £40m/£50m for our better players.

Edited by Fox92

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Fox92 said:

Plenty.... John Stones, Benjamin Mendy, Mangala, Kyle Walker...

 

Maguire is average. Man Utd are one of the biggest clubs in the world, could have done for loads of defenders better than him for that price. De Ligt went for nearly £20m less and he's much better than Maguire. For £80m I'd want a centre half with better awareness given his lack of pace. I've seen enough Man Utd defenders through the years who were good and better than average... Ferdinand, Vidic, Stamm... Maguire is nowhere near these and never will be.

Mangala went for £32m, John Stones was arguably the best young english centre back since Rio and was absolutely worth the amount Man City paid, Mendy gets an assist just about every time he plays (injuries are ruingin him), Walker average? behave.

 

So because Maguire isn't as good as Rio, Vidic or Stam he's average? Seems like a mighty high bar you've set.

 

Reality is Maguire is well above average and is one of the best centre halves in the division.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Mangala went for £32m, John Stones was arguably the best young english centre back since Rio and was absolutely worth the amount Man City paid, Mendy gets an assist just about every time he plays (injuries are ruingin him), Walker average? behave.

 

So because Maguire isn't as good as Rio, Vidic or Stam he's average? Seems like a mighty high bar you've set.

 

Reality is Maguire is well above average and is one of the best centre halves in the division.

 

I though Man City ended up paying nearly £50m for Mangala because of ownership issues. Was Stones ever worth £50m, really? I'll give you Walker I just don't like him so that probably swung me.

 

I wasn't comparing past players, it was more of the point of what I think of a Man Utd centre half to be, but I think Maguire is average yeah. He hasn't done anything at Man Utd (yet) to make me think otherwise either. That Spurs goal the other week was laughable, he got beat as if he wasn't there and I've seen that many times this season.  Maybe I'm being harsh, and even bias, but I think Evans is better than him. OR at least has had a better season.

Edited by Fox92
clarity just adding in this season
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting line in the post (mid) pandemic transfer world  with the Citizens only getting  £45m up front for Sane. His contract was low, I believe, but wonder if it’s a sign of things to come. Would We still sell Chilwell if it only generated £40m ??? 🤷‍♂️💋

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, TrentFox said:

Interesting line in the post (mid) pandemic transfer world  with the Citizens only getting  £45m up front for Sane. His contract was low, I believe, but wonder if it’s a sign of things to come. Would We still sell Chilwell if it only generated £40m ??? 🤷‍♂️💋

Nah, the lowest I could see us selling for is £60/70 million and he’d have to kick up a fuss. Look at Dortmund’s stance re Sancho transfer this summer - no covid price slash from what their reps have been telling the media. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Dan LCFC said:

I genuinely think Maguire is nearer to average than the very top. Is he nearer to Van Dijk than James Tomkins? I'd say not.

You're wrong. He's definetely nearer Van Dijk. Tomkins lives in London

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, TrentFox said:

Interesting line in the post (mid) pandemic transfer world  with the Citizens only getting  £45m up front for Sane. His contract was low, I believe, but wonder if it’s a sign of things to come. Would We still sell Chilwell if it only generated £40m ??? 🤷‍♂️💋

Sane only had a year left on his contract, 45m is pretty good business for Man City IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont have an issue spending time or chatting to friends from other clubs outside of games, but during a game and right before it, they should be focused on themselves and their team, I dont like seeing hugging, friendly chats before KO.  After full time I am ok with it.

 

About been happy after FT defeat? I dont know, but I feel the way Rodgers manages his team, is he wants a feel good positive vibe, he doesnt want players depressed after a defeat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whenever a young player has a 'poor' game etc, in particular Chilwell, why do some supporters often criticise these players - to the extent where they don't believe that they can't improve on the past mistakes that they've made and become a stronger/better player?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its the same story all the time , he plays badly or laughs in defeat and he gets murdered on here , his fan club go off and hide. Blows over a bit and out they come again to defend him "he's only a young lad" , " he's England's first choice L.B." etc. etc. This is getting more boring than "The big book of particle physics". He's not really that interesting is Ben our current problems lie elsewhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Wymsey said:

Whenever a young player has a 'poor' game etc, in particular Chilwell, why do some supporters often criticise these players - to the extent where they don't believe that they can't improve on the past mistakes that they've made and become a stronger/better player?

Not just the young players either. Everyone will make mistakes, just do not see why people cannot get over it and move on. Any player worth his salt, and their coaches will work on the weaker areas of their game to try and improve. Look at Vardy, totally out of his depth at first (to the point where he almost quit) but he worked hard and improved. Each time we moved up, he struggled at first but each time he eventually bossed it. Chilwell obviously has the potential, and his limitations like any player, but i am sure he works on it and will only get better with time. People expect everyone on the pitch to be the finished article, yet as a full back he is probably 5-6 years from his prime. Things like positional sense, knowing when to simply hold etc comes with experience. Simpson, was a master at simply holding his player up, letting them make the first move and pushing them into a position where he was better able to get a block or tackle in, and Fuchs's positional sense also is, i would say better than Chilwells but these things can be learnt.

I would be far more worried if he was in his late twenties and hadn't learnt from his mistakes. 

I get that not all young players fulfill their early promise and reach a ceiling but Chilwell is already an accomplished player. Its OK saying we should bin him, but who would we realistically replace him with? Decent left sided players are hard to come by.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 30/06/2020 at 12:12, Stadt said:

He went for £80m because United think spending guarantees good signings. Maguire’s a good centre back with some very strong and very weak characteristics. We sold him and have two better centre backs playing. Kepa went a similar fee and he’s toss - the money involved in a signing isn’t that strong an indicator of quality.
 

There’s obviously fewer leftbacks out there (only two or three LBs per team and fewer left footed players in general) so the value of average-good leftbacks is inflated. Chilwell is one of the better LBs in the league but that’s a reflection on the league rather than him being a great LB. 

 

I doubt anybody’s would say Luke Shaw is one of the better fullbacks but he outperforms Chilwell stats wiseD62C233E-8987-412B-944C-944DF6ED5567.thumb.jpeg.71eb47b02c46bfce43a0e930efaea656.jpeg

Chilwell’s tacke/dribbled past % is particularly concerning 

That graph isn't presented very well (not your fault!). Makes it look like he's never dribbled.

 

If you have a look on whoscored, only Ricardo and TAA are scoring a lot higher than him. In fact, it's Just Robertson and Digne who have a better score at left back. Chilwell is ranked 51st of all players this season which is puts him in the best 2/3 players in any team (on average).

 

Think context is critically important as he's playing higher up the pitch than most full backs so will be dribbled past more. He's been dribbled past 1 time a game on average which given the above really isn't that much. Considerably more than Luke Shaw's 0.6 granted but his overall score is much higher (and I would say apart from Digne, Robertson and Chilwell, there aren't many better left backs in the league now that he's lost some weight :D).

 

Ricardo is 5th on the overall rankings and a fair bit ahead of Van Dijk and a long way ahead of TAA. Do you know what his dribbled past stat per game is? 

 

1.9.

 

Almost 4 times Luke Shaw's and twice Chilwell's! Is anybody going to tell me he's a bad defender? 

 

Stats are useful at a glance but nothing more than that until you start putting context and complex scenarios on top. That's why football clubs pay £100,000's a year to run those departments.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He needs to remember what happened to Drinkwater  when he went to Chelsea and was forgotten in the reserves they totally ruined a decent player and robbed him of his confidence, Chelsea are the mercenary club who seem to buy quality young players and some are Either lost in the loan market or kept in the back almost like buying quality so no other club can have them?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...