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Potential Labour government 2nd referendum.

Labour 2nd EU referendum  

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  1. 1. Remain in the EU or Leave in a Customs Union.



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On 23/11/2019 at 12:44, MattP said:

But as I say, the most grotesque piece of foreign interference went on right in front of our eyes, when Barack Obama stood on a stage and openly tried to influce the result, but again, nobody cared then as they though Remain were going to win.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're not getting away with that. Trying to compare one man articulating his opinion to a hostile state staging a sophisticated hybrid war?

 

No.

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5 minutes ago, Saxondale said:

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're not getting away with that. Trying to compare one man articulating his opinion to a hostile state staging a sophisticated hybrid war?

 

No.

Hmm... Barak 'back of the queue' Obama was a small influence on my decision to vote leave alongside the sight of Cameron grovelling on his European tour and being told to sling his hook again and again.

 

Given the choice between remain or leave in a customs union, I would vote remain.  The latter would be the worst of all worlds.

 

Given a second ref on Boris' deal and remain, I'd prob reluctantly hold my nose and vote remain.  

 

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17 minutes ago, Saxondale said:

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're not getting away with that. Trying to compare one man articulating his opinion to a hostile state staging a sophisticated hybrid war?

 

No.

Sophisticated hybrid war? lol

 

It was about 30 Twitter bots.

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14 minutes ago, Saxondale said:

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're not getting away with that. Trying to compare one man articulating his opinion to a hostile state staging a sophisticated hybrid war?

 

No.

 

1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

One man?  PUSA?  Pfff.  

Yeah, it's a bit more than an average Joe raising their voice about the situation in a pub...but at the same time it's a fair bit different to a dedicated misinformation campaign wielded by state actors unknown - in terms of magnitude of influence and honesty of action.

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Comparing Obama's and Putin's influence in the Brexit referendum is something of a false equivalence when you consider they certainly had massively different intentions when it comes to the UK, the EU and Western liberal democracy.  I'm baffled why people, in the UK at least, would be as worried about Obama as they are Putin. 

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Just now, MattP said:

419.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/14/how-400-russia-run-fake-accounts-posted-bogus-brexit-tweets

 

And I doubt one person seriously had their vote changed from Remain to Leave on the basis of a Tweet.

I seriously doubt nobody changed their mind about a vote in the last few years because of a tweet.

 

You're being quite naive if you think the majority of people in the UK read up on potential consequences of their vote and dismiss unsubstantiated claims they see on social media.

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Just now, bovril said:

Comparing Obama's and Putin's influence in the Brexit referendum is something of a false equivalence when you consider they certainly had massively different intentions when it comes to the UK, the EU and Western liberal democracy.  I'm baffled why people, in the UK at least, would be as worried about Obama as they are Putin. 

Missed the point completely, it's about foreign interference, not what the intentions are.

 

Although the US don't want us in the EU for the good of us either, they want it for their own influence, Portillo used to go into this a great deal when talking about his time as defence secretary.

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9 minutes ago, MattP said:

Missed the point completely, it's about foreign interference, not what the intentions are.

 

Although the US don't want us in the EU for the good of us either, they want it for their own influence, Portillo used to go into this a great deal when talking about his time as defence secretary.

My point was about the fallacy of comparing two very different situations to support a very general argument about foreign interference, and also that it's natural people are going to be more worried about Russian interference than American. 

I realise the US have their own reasons for us being in the EU, but I am absolutely certain I would still rather live in that reality than one where Russia's geopolitical goals are achieved. 

Edited by bovril
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9 minutes ago, MattP said:

419.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/14/how-400-russia-run-fake-accounts-posted-bogus-brexit-tweets

 

And I doubt one person seriously had their vote changed from Remain to Leave on the basis of a Tweet.

Thanks. You might be right, but I do tend to take such technological influences on voting systems pretty seriously and I'm somewhat cynical when it comes to the ease of people being led to do things.

 

 

7 minutes ago, MattP said:

Missed the point completely, it's about foreign interference, not what the intentions are.

 

Although the US don't want us in the EU for the good of us either, they want it for their own influence, Portillo used to go into this a great deal when talking about his time as defence secretary.

This is a good point.

 

8 minutes ago, bovril said:

My point was about the fallacy of comparing two very different situations to support a very general argument about foreign interference, and also that it's natural people are going to be more worried about Russian interference than American. 

And so is this.

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On 23/11/2019 at 09:54, MattP said:

I think he probably could. Boris reopened the withdrawal agreement and got it changed in about 90 days.

 

Adding a CU shouldn't be too hard and the EU know this means we remain so they'll be delighted to offer it.

 

I don't think they'll be much need for a long campaign either before it as only a handful of Labour MP's will be on the side of leaving and the rest remaining. 

Hopefully there will only be a handful of Labour M.P.s .full stop!

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Just now, FerrisBueller said:

On the topic of believing what you read on social media, I've seen a few people circulate this monstrosity, without a hint of irony.

IMG_0571.PNG

Well, it's true. That's happened while we're in the EU. Obviously if you lacked critical thinking skills you'd think the two were lin...

 

Oh. 

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59 minutes ago, FerrisBueller said:

On the topic of believing what you read on social media, I've seen a few people circulate this monstrosity, without a hint of irony.

IMG_0571.PNG

 

lol

 

To be fair, that's a pretty strong set of arguments against Thatcherism, er, I mean the EU.....

 

Not sure why they have a problem with franking, though. It's an important part of the postal service, that.

 

And what's that about "currpt MPs"? Has their software been corrupted or is that when MPs spill curry on their carpets?

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Here we are again, albeit in another thread, and the ‘2nd ref = anti-democracy’ gang are comparing an allied country being transparent on their foreign policy towards us to a subversion campaign from an authoritarian state.

 

Please, please, please give your head a shake if you think the administration of a massive trading partner informing us clearly that they’d prioritise the EU over us in event of Brexit, also known as transparent foreign policy, is in anyway comparable to a country known as an active threat to us using actors online to sway public opinion with totally false information. 

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