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3 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

Not sure how you marry that lot up with "centrism".


Weed legalisation allows a free market for a currently prohibited market and raises tax revenue without levying extra tax on the common public, arguably saving tax money on needless drug raids. Right wing market freedom and left wing anti-Prohibitionism, pretty easy to spin that as Centrism.

 

Youth centres are popular on both sides and shown to reduce crime, pretty centrist.

 

Prison reform is hard to spin now but if Patel ends up trying her ‘law & order’ I see it appealing to more moderate Tories and of course those on the left. 

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1 hour ago, Finnaldo said:

 

This'll sound bonkers but I feel there's a Populist window for the Lib Dems to fill.

 

Full weed legalisation, drug decriminalisation campaign, funding youth centres and prison reform. Alleviating policing budgets and using tax money  derived from weed sales to finance the NHS properly.

 

Brexit is inevitable now, fvck it off, burn it down and start from scratch. Centrism is the flavour nowadays, go bombastic on the 'sensible revolution'. Patel is a functional sociopath and her law and order campaign will worsen crime before it improves it. Lib Dems are on thin ice and they need to go big or go home, target the weaknesses in the Tory Government.

 

Hmmm! I'm sure there'd be some takers for this, but would there be 20,000 - 30,000 takers in each of dozens or hundreds of constituencies? :dunno:

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Just now, Alf Bentley said:

 

Hmmm! I'm sure there'd be some takers for this, but would there be 20,000 - 30,000 takers in each of dozens or hundreds of constituencies? :dunno:

 

Give me Dominic Cummings and a walk-in fridge Alf and I'll deliver the world ;)

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It's a pretty shit selection to be honest as the shadow cabinet is full of people stained by Corbynism and attached to Momentum.

 

Starmer is the most competent by a country mile of the candidates but there is just no way you can pick a fanatical remian based Londoner given what has happened in the heartlands last night. If I was tasked with picking one to win I'd be picking up the phone to Andy Burnham and Alan Johnson this morning and just asking them to come back and save the party. I don't get the enthusiam for ranting shouting women like Phillips or Rayner

 

This is one hell of a road back, if the next five years goes wrong you might force a hung parliament, but a Labour majority now requires taking a host of middle England seats with 15,000 Tory majorities, you are exactly where William Hague was in 1997.

 

Who do i think they'll pick? Richard Burgon or Rebecca Long-Bailey.

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1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

Any thoughts on who should be the Lib Dem leader now, @LiberalFox

 

Or what political platform the LDs should now focus on, having been so closely associated with the Remain cause?

Ed Davey is the obvious choice. Experienced and has a fairly comfortable majority, went for the leadership recently too. If Layla Moran goes for it she'd be my vote, she may decide not to as she didn't go for it only 4 months ago. 

 

One thing we need to do is get away from being a remain single issue party (in the eyes of voters) and back to being known for our values. One of the worst things about the EU referendum is we've ended up being a conservative party appearing to stand up for elites and big government. The problem was that we acted as though Brexit was being forced on an unwilling public and neglected the fact that the EU referendum had been lost. Therefore we were representing something unpopular rather than the values behind it that are actually popular. As a result I think we lost support in some areas like the west country and north norfolk. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, MattP said:

It's a pretty shit selection to be honest as the shadow cabinet is full of people stained by Corbynism and attached to Momentum.

 

Starmer is the most competent by a country mile of the candidates but there is just no way you can pick a fanatical remian based Londoner given what has happened in the heartlands last night. If I was tasked with picking one to win I'd be picking up the phone to Andy Burnham and Alan Johnson this morning and just asking them to come back and save the party. I don't get the enthusiam for ranting shouting women like Phillips or Rayner

 

This is one hell of a road back, if the next five years goes wrong you might force a hung parliament, but a Labour majority now requires taking a host of middle England seats with 15,000 Tory majorities, you are exactly where William Hague was in 1997.

 

Who do i think they'll pick? Richard Burgon or Rebecca Long-Bailey.

he has no chance of winning an election - another 'ed milliband'

 

picking the right leader is as important as picking the right policies - probably moreso …….the tories made that mistake for years - howard, Duncan-smith, hague and labour to a degree with brown.  labour need to wake up - it may be better for them to pick anyone for the next three years and then pick a shiny new person to take on boris in 2024.

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3 minutes ago, MattP said:

Labour lost every one of these seats last night, here are the majorities of them in 1997 - some of them are now safe Tory seats.

 

Bolsover 27,149

Sedgefield: 25,143
Durham 24,475
Leigh: 24,496
Bishop Auckland: 21,064
Redcar: 21,664
Workington: 19,656
Bassetlaw: 17,460
Great Grimsby: 16,244
Darlington: 16,025
Wakefield: 14,604
Scunthorpe: 14,173
Clwyd South: 13,810

 

The Labour party has to change completely, you aren't winning again until the over-educated, Palestinian flag waving, woke, moral puritans stop teling people from Workington how to live, behave, think and act.

You love the word 'woke' don't you? Having said that I agree to a degree with your point, the Labour party needs to understand why its traditional support base have changed who they have voted for without attempting to belittle them (even though I also think the turkeys have voted for christmas in some seats).

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4 minutes ago, MattP said:

Labour lost every one of these seats last night, here are the majorities of them in 1997 - some of them are now safe Tory seats.

 

Bolsover 27,149

Sedgefield: 25,143
Durham 24,475
Leigh: 24,496
Bishop Auckland: 21,064
Redcar: 21,664
Workington: 19,656
Bassetlaw: 17,460
Great Grimsby: 16,244
Darlington: 16,025
Wakefield: 14,604
Scunthorpe: 14,173
Clwyd South: 13,810

 

The Labour party has to change completely, you aren't winning again until the over-educated, Palestinian flag waving, woke, moral puritans stop teling people from Workington how to live, behave, think and act.

Yep. Labour need a major rethink. 

 

If they put forward another Corbyn or a Tory painted red then they'll have ****ed it.

 

They need to see this walloping as a major opportunity to restart. Get Labour lands back onside. Use the fact that the Tories still have a major job on their hands and a lot could go very wrong as a big opportunity. In 5 years time we might be begging for a red government, with Boris Johnson long gone. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

Getting their house in order is a massive job and they really do have to get it right. Get it right and they could easily reclaim dozens of seats. Get it wrong and it's unchallenged Tory rule for the next 10/5 years.

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If this parliament goes the 5 years the last 38 years out of 50 will have been under Conservative rule. Tony Blair and New Labour being the only one's to break this stranglehold. I don't see how this country will ever vote Labour again if they don't go back to being "red Tories" in an economical sense.

Edited by Bobby Hundreds

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1 minute ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

If this parliament goes the 5 years the last 38 years out of 50 will have been under Conservative rule. Tony Blair and New Labour being the only one's to break this stranglehold. I don't see how this country will ever vote Labour again if they don't go back to being "red Tories" in an economical sense.

 

I don't, austerity has changed the country a great deal and not sure looking back between 20 and 50 years ago provides good insight.

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Just now, bmt said:

 

I don't, austerity has changed the country a great deal and not sure looking back between 20 and 50 years ago provides good insight.

I mean I was alive in the 80s, it was incredibly austere in the council estate I grew up on.

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13 minutes ago, bmt said:

You love the word 'woke' don't you? Having said that I agree to a degree with your point, the Labour party needs to understand why its traditional support base have changed who they have voted for without attempting to belittle them (even though I also think the turkeys have voted for christmas in some seats).

Apparently being "over-educated" is a bad thing now, too.

 

Can't quite get the "moral puritan" line though - I mean, as annoying as those folks are I don't think they're the ones saying that LGBT folks are not quite right from a moral perspective, for instance.

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Just now, Bobby Hundreds said:

I mean I was alive in the 80s, it was incredibly austere in the council estate I grew up on.

I didn't just mean that I meant the political landscape etc. is very different now to before 2000. The further back you go the less relevant it is imo, as it is in other theatres outside of politics too. Also red Tory leaders may win elections but what's the point if you lose the values of the party.

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40 minutes ago, bmt said:

I really, really hope they don't go for Jess Phillips. She's a good MP but she isn't tactful, is very brash and would alienate a large amount of people that Labour need to appeal to.

I think all 3 of your points are true, but I think she'd have a better chance of getting back the traditional Labour voters that the current set up has been so good at alienating.

 

Her manner is far from statesman-like, but that seems less of an issue these days, and for everyone that thinks she's a bit too much I think there'll be at least as many that relate to her

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Just now, leicsmac said:

Apparently being "over-educated" is a bad thing now, too.

 

Can't quite get the "moral puritan" line though - I mean, as annoying as those folks are I don't think they're the ones saying that LGBT folks are not quite right from a moral perspective, for instance.

I think it's more the 'us and them' line which has been created between millenial lefties like me and socialist working class northern communities.

 

I agree on second point.

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22 minutes ago, bmt said:

You love the word 'woke' don't you? Having said that I agree to a degree with your point, the Labour party needs to understand why its traditional support base have changed who they have voted for without attempting to belittle them (even though I also think the turkeys have voted for christmas in some seats).

You just have to look at the media representation of the party now.

 

Out have gone the Alan Johnson types and they've been replaced by Owen Jones, Ash Sarker, Holly Rigby, Fazia Shaheen (delighted she lost btw the rancid little antisemite) Jon Lansman and Aaron Bastani. 

 

They've turned Labour away from the North and into a coffee shop clientele of London, convinced they can win an election on liberals, students and public sector workers 

 

Have a watch of ITV coverage last might when they ask Owen Jones what northern seats he campaigned in, Stockport he said (where he was born) and the rest of the six weeks he swanned around Chingford obsessed with unseating IDS.

 

They had barely anyone out on the streets of Grimsby but flooded Uxbridge with activists as they genuinely thought Boris was in trouble lol Did they just canvass the student areas? Probably did. Then we get to the results and Boris has increased his majority lol

 

The Tories sent their activists from Uxbridge to Kensington around 5pm - and then won it by a couple of hundred.

 

Then while that was happening Labour moved activists to Golders Green just to make sure they stopped Berger winning when they had no chance themselves. Yet they didn't even need to.

 

The party is now ran by complete and utter morons. These momentum types just know nothing about politics or strategy and they got drunk after 2017 thinking they had actually won it, when the reality was it was a terrible result against an awful Tory campaign. 

 

Campbell and Mandleson were bastards but they knew how to do this sort of stuff, the Labour NEC now don't. 

Edited by MattP

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3 minutes ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

I think all 3 of your points are true, but I think she'd have a better chance of getting back the traditional Labour voters that the current set up has been so good at alienating.

 

Her manner is far from statesman-like, but that seems less of an issue these days, and for everyone that thinks she's a bit too much I think there'll be at least as many that relate to her

You may well be right, I think Rayner (for example) might be a good compromise as their politics isn't much difference, she's very relatable to the working class and is a strong speaker without being rude. Also, they should pick someone who the media campaign against will make people like them more (like Rayner being actually working class and a mother at 18 etc) - Jess Phillips would probably be the same as Rayner on that.

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39 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:


Weed legalisation allows a free market for a currently prohibited market and raises tax revenue without levying extra tax on the common public, arguably saving tax money on needless drug raids. Right wing market freedom and left wing anti-Prohibitionism, pretty easy to spin that as Centrism.

 

Youth centres are popular on both sides and shown to reduce crime, pretty centrist.

 

Prison reform is hard to spin now but if Patel ends up trying her ‘law & order’ I see it appealing to more moderate Tories and of course those on the left. 

What you argue for is radical liberalism not centrism. Centrism is trying to tack to the centre and it usually involves rejecting anything that could make you unpopular and coming out with policies designed to appeal to the other side. 

 

The only centrist policy there is investment in youth centres. 

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4 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

They had a royal shake up when they re-invented themselves as New labour, and eventually everyone realised they were just a reincarnation of the tory party.

No they were centrist I’d say. There’s a host of welfare related achievements balanced with a degree of privatisation of public services but often on a payment by result basis rather than profit first service last!

 

But yeah there were certainly elements of a Tory Plan B there!

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On the contrary, I would say there's plenty of room for progressive economic policy, and it's largely socially where Labour need to improve their image. As I said in another thread I have not seen much evidence that the policy platform was unpopular outside of the obvious Brexit issue and its implications. It might be an inconvenient truth for some but several of the policies did resonate with people.

 

For instance it is pretty hard to argue a compelling case that the market has delivered on things like the railway, given we pay very high prices for very bad service and loads of it is managed by other countries anyway.

 

It needs stripping back and repackaging in a way that can't be dismissed as LOL FREE NETFLIX by Football Twitter banter merchant types. But there are areas which would benefit from radical change and there is a good argument that can be made for enacting that change.

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17 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

They had barely anyone out on the streets of Grimsby but flooded Uxbridge with activists as they genuinely thought Boris was in trouble lol Did they just canvass the student areas? Probably did. Then we get to the results and Boris has increased his majority lol

I think it goes deeper even that that - easy to pick on the North-East and say it's all about Brexit. Was infuriating to see the Labour Twitter going 'there's big crowds at this polling station', yeah it's in central London FFS. Get out and up in the North. 

 

What happened in Northfield, Birmingham and some of the Greater Manchester areas? That's a bigger problem. Inner-city areas with big issues which have been traditional labour areas for approx 20 years gone. Areas which are a mix of generation/ethnicity/class. 

 

There's no time for experiments but I'd have been interested to see this manifesto led by a politician without a past. In many ways, the Labour manifesto was too much for such a snap election. 

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David Lammy sounds like he's throwing his hat in the ring. Starmer a cert to run, Thornberry speech I've just watched (boy has she learnt nothing) seems to say she's in.

 

This could be absolutely hilarious. Imagine if it ends up with a final four all from North London lol

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