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Corona Virus

Mark

No political discussion in this topic. That is complaining about a country, a politician, a party and/or its voters, etc

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13 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Wonder how the EU will cope with the consequences of the coronavirus.

 

It's probably its biggest stress test ever. Solidarity across member states can only go that far, it seems.

I hope it goes back to just being a trading bloc, hopefully with us involved, hopefully still with as much freedom of movement as possible. Unfortunately I think it may try to use this situation to go for deeper union, citing 'more Europe' as the solution to the crisis. 

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1 hour ago, yorkie1999 said:

I do find it odd that the major industrial cities in china have only had a handful of deaths from the virus. Bejing: 8 deaths, Shanghai 5 deaths, Guangdong 8 deaths. These are some of the most densely populated cities on earth and surely must be a million times more likely to allow a virus spread than somewhere like Leicester.

 

1 hour ago, Finnaldo said:


I wouldn’t put much faith in the Chinese government to be honest.

 

1 hour ago, Darkon84 said:

You'll be off to the Gulag with that kind of tone and questioning. If Richard Burgon says the Chinese are alright, then that's good enough for me! The mans never wrong! lol 

It is beyond question that the numbers out of China were unreliable, especially in jan and early feb. There were indeed many cases in the big cities but the stringent lock down before the virus began to spread put a lid on it. There is enough anecdotal evidence out of Wuhan that the death toll there could well be towards 50k.  However, I have confidence that the figures coming out now are reasonable .......

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15 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

I think the optimism that this is the exogenous shock that we need for a change to our society is akin to the optimism of a football fan before the start of a season where their team finishes 17th.

I absolutely hate that you're likely so right about this.

 

But people do need to get that the next warning to change might not be so kind as this one by comparison.

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1 hour ago, yorkie1999 said:

I do find it odd that the major industrial cities in china have only had a handful of deaths from the virus. Bejing: 8 deaths, Shanghai 5 deaths, Guangdong 8 deaths. These are some of the most densely populated cities on earth and surely must be a million times more likely to allow a virus spread than somewhere like Leicester.

it is strange but they did lock everywhere down I think so it did help the spread.

 

Still think this has came from a Chinese lab there are a lot of theories and Putin is sitting back quietly watching it all unfold.

 

glad when its all over.

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18 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

I think the optimism that this is the exogenous shock that we need for a change to our society is akin to the optimism of a football fan before the start of a season where their team finishes 17th.

So you are suggesting that 95% of the world population are going to be disappointed? :unsure:

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1 minute ago, Tinman said:

 

I get this, its great, but won`t it then just re-emerge once everyone goes back to normal behaviours? :dunno:

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7 minutes ago, bovril said:

I hope it goes back to just being a trading bloc, hopefully with us involved, hopefully still with as much freedom of movement as possible. Unfortunately I think it may try to use this situation to go for deeper union, citing 'more Europe' as the solution to the crisis. 

Your hope for the EU is now exactly the same as mine, I didn't see that coming lol

 

On the last point you are 100% correct - unfortunately it's the only solution many in the project have for anything.

 

I have this image of Guy Verhofstadt being stood there in 2030 with only a handful of nations still left, saying the only way to keep it together is more Europe.

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1 minute ago, Dahnsouff said:

I get this, its great, but won`t it then just re-emerge once everyone goes back to normal behaviours? :dunno:

Key word being some normality. I imagine the lockdown will continue until at least June, but certain things may start being more permissable (e.g. sport might be able to restart behind closed doors, less restrictions on going outside in smaller groups, etc)

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2 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

I get this, its great, but won`t it then just re-emerge once everyone goes back to normal behaviours? :dunno:

I think that depends on how much testing we can undertake. If we can get antibody testing done on a macro scale then those who have had the disease can return to work without concern to their own health or risk to others. Meanwhile, widespread daily testing to identify those who are incubating the illness can help to stop its spread.  Those who have any symptoms will need to isolate - do we think we can trust people to do this ?

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Can anyone else see restrictions always being in place from now on? I really can't see anything ever going back to 'normal'. This will have changed people, the thought of going football, few pre match pints sounds like a dream right now.. 

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9 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

I get this, its great, but won`t it then just re-emerge once everyone goes back to normal behaviours? :dunno:

It'll only do that if a person who survives the virus is still contagious for a period after they've recovered, it can't live forever without hosts.

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6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Your hope for the EU is now exactly the same as mine, I didn't see that coming lol

 

 

I've always wanted to see that version of the EU - ease of trade and movement without deep political integration.

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9 minutes ago, Harrydc said:

Can anyone else see restrictions always being in place from now on? I really can't see anything ever going back to 'normal'. This will have changed people, the thought of going football, few pre match pints sounds like a dream right now.. 

Nope 

 

things always seem worse whilst ongoing ....... a few weeks down the road seems a lifetime away 

 

I think that all the evidence points to us getting back to some kind of normality sooner than many believe possible. - but there will have to be restrictions on travel from countries that have not been through this and checks on arrivals in a way which wasn’t carried out in feb. If we aren’t prepared to take difficult decisions on our personal freedoms whilst the threat remains  then we will lose them until a vaccine can be found .......

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5 minutes ago, bovril said:

I've always wanted to see that version of the EU - ease of trade and movement without deep political integration.

When it all started it was the "common market" that we signed up to, It somehow became a European super state that wants an army. The common market was the best and original idea. What the idea migrated to may well be it's ultimate undoing.

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Spain's daily death toll up by a record 849 :(

 

Total deaths now at 8189.

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28 minutes ago, Xen said:

Key word being some normality. I imagine the lockdown will continue until at least June, but certain things may start being more permissable (e.g. sport might be able to restart behind closed doors, less restrictions on going outside in smaller groups, etc)

I think he means more next winter rather than June time.

 

If a vaccine is not ready until likely summer 2021, then there's a good chance it just comes back over the winter.

 

The argument I've heard is healthcare services will actually be able to prepare for it and we'll hopefully have found better treatments and drugs for it by the winter and natural selection says viruses tend to mutate into a weaker strain over time and countries will put travel bans on any nation as soon as a few cases seem to he returning. 

 

But it certainly wouldn't surprise me of we have to do this all over again come November time.

Edited by Sampson

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8 minutes ago, messerschmitt said:

When it all started it was the "common market" that we signed up to, It somehow became a European super state that wants an army. The common market was the best and original idea. What the idea migrated to may well be it's ultimate undoing.

As a trading block i never had a problem with it,  European super state sorry no thank you.

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31 minutes ago, MattP said:

Your hope for the EU is now exactly the same as mine, I didn't see that coming lol

 

On the last point you are 100% correct - unfortunately it's the only solution many in the project have for anything.

 

I have this image of Guy Verhofstadt being stood there in 2030 with only a handful of nations still left, saying the only way to keep it together is more Europe.

And then, just as he ends his speech, "Final Countdown" starts playing in the background.

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44 minutes ago, bovril said:

I hope it goes back to just being a trading bloc, hopefully with us involved, hopefully still with as much freedom of movement as possible. Unfortunately I think it may try to use this situation to go for deeper union, citing 'more Europe' as the solution to the crisis. 

 

34 minutes ago, MattP said:

Your hope for the EU is now exactly the same as mine, I didn't see that coming lol

 

On the last point you are 100% correct - unfortunately it's the only solution many in the project have for anything.

 

I have this image of Guy Verhofstadt being stood there in 2030 with only a handful of nations still left, saying the only way to keep it together is more Europe.


It’s not far from mine either to be honest.

 

It’s position as a political union just creates friction and it’s completely inconsistent. It’s treatment of Greece & Italy shows that as well as it’s radio silence Guardia Civil bashing in Catalonian grandma’s heads.  
 

It would be closer and more harmonious as a trade bloc. It would allow political issues to be resolved a lot easier as you don’t have countries trying to play chess with the commission and European Parliament.  

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58 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

 

 

It is beyond question that the numbers out of China were unreliable, especially in jan and early feb. There were indeed many cases in the big cities but the stringent lock down before the virus began to spread put a lid on it. There is enough anecdotal evidence out of Wuhan that the death toll there could well be towards 50k.  However, I have confidence that the figures coming out now are reasonable .......

 

'The CCP have consistently lied and deceived but I believe them now'.

 

Why on earth would you have any confidence in what they say? That should've been eroded over the last 10 years of half-truths and inconsistencies. Any figures coming out of China about infection, death, or recovery should be approached with a healthy cloak of distrust. The CCP will say whatever they can to ensure the communist regime is not destablised.

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19 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

 

'The CCP have consistently lied and deceived but I believe them now'.

 

Why on earth would you have any confidence in what they say? That should've been eroded over the last 10 years of half-truths and inconsistencies. Any figures coming out of China about infection, death, or recovery should be approached with a healthy cloak of distrust. The CCP will say whatever they can to ensure the communist regime is not destablised.

As has been discussed before I'm curious to know how not being totally forthcoming (to the international community and by extension their own citizenry) in order to save face actually benefits the Chinese leadership on this one once this all broke into the open.

 

If they're lying about the amount of cases and by extension that they are in control of the situation then all that lie will do within the country is cost more lives and more money, which can only have an adverse effect on them staying in power (which, as you say, is what it's all about).

 

It's not just about them lying in the international sphere, it's about them lying to their own citizens too, and you can bet that if the former is happening, so is the latter - and the latter doesn't really make much sense in a situation like this, purely because this isn't an human "subversive" that they can simply suppress or manipulate.

 

Of course they lie early and often (as do many different governments all over the world), but them doing it purely to preserve reputation doesn't actually make much logical sense here because quite simply a virus doesn't care about reputation.

 

NB. And it's rather tiresome to see the same old logically fallacious arguments trotted out repeatedly on here wrt the Chinese government on this one (bastards that they can be).

Edited by leicsmac
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