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Corona Virus

Mark

No political discussion in this topic. That is complaining about a country, a politician, a party and/or its voters, etc

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12 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Well the Wuhan local govt were negligent in the extreme in the early days but the national govt did not allow Chinese nationals to leave the country once they realised what was going on. Are you condemning european govts for allowing people to pass between countries through second half feb when they could see cases already appearing in their counties ???  

I’m saying the Chinese authorities were aware when things were very much business as usual.

Of course we could have all stopped international travel, or quarantined new arrivals but it was here already.

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7 minutes ago, Strokes said:

They deemed it impossible as it was already here and rife.

 

On the second point I can assume they felt it was the best option for them to keep it hidden at that time.
This began at the latest in November, to call western governments out for slow reactions and to remove China from any blame is a bit strange.

I’m not saying they released a biological weapon or that this was intentional but they knew early on and they’ve been lying ever since.

First point, then that's on them, not the Chinese.

 

Second point, you may well be right and they thought they could cover it up successfully. They were wrong and a great many people are paying the price for their hubris. But, as you say, it was not intentional (glad that was clarified after the use of the word knowingly) and folks either entirely blaming China for this starting or entirely blaming the West for not doing enough are both wrong. The truth is somewhere in between, IMO. A great many governments have to answer for the way this has all panned out, the Chinese just chief amongst them.

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7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

First point, then that's on them, not the Chinese.

 

Second point, you may well be right and they thought they could cover it up successfully. They were wrong and a great many people are paying the price for their hubris. But, as you say, it was not intentional (glad that was clarified after the use of the word knowingly) and folks either entirely blaming China for this starting or entirely blaming the West for not doing enough are both wrong. The truth is somewhere in between, IMO. A great many governments have to answer for the way this has all panned out, the Chinese just chief amongst them.

No I meant not intentionally created, I still think they were business as usual whilst knowing this virus was killing people.

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3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

No I meant not intentionally created, I still think they were business as usual whilst knowing this virus was killing people.

I think that they thought they could operate business as usual while not losing money or face by containing it all in their usual brutally authoritarian manner. They were wrong, both about the way it spreads and its potential virulence, underestimating them both. So yes, I think you're right. And there should indeed be recriminations and repercussions for that.

 

My point, as has been elaborated on this thread a couple of times now, is that when this is all over they shouldn't be the only government in the dock in the courtroom of public opinion - and I'm going to continue to point out arguments that state or imply that they should be as simplistic and erroneous.

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To be honest we should have made China a pariah long before this on the basis of its slave labour, internment camps, wet markets, environmental abuse, slaughter for ivory, currency manipulation, human rights record, coal dumping and mass surveillance.

 

Coronavirus is just another piece of shit to emerge from the place. If it wasn't so powerful we would treat it like North Korea. No country comes close to the damage this lot are doing and I'm genuinely surprised at how many in the West are coming out to bat (no pun intended) for them. (Although I fully expected it from Richard Burgon)

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For those still trying to deny (to us amateurs) that herd immunity was government policy, you probably need to convince us that these eminent politicians are/were wrong first.

 

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30 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I think that they thought they could operate business as usual while not losing money or face by containing it all in their usual brutally authoritarian manner. They were wrong, both about the way it spreads and its potential virulence, underestimating them both. So yes, I think you're right. And there should indeed be recriminations and repercussions for that.

 

My point, as has been elaborated on this thread a couple of times now, is that when this is all over they shouldn't be the only government in the dock in the courtroom of public opinion - and I'm going to continue to point out arguments that state or imply that they should be as simplistic and erroneous.

They wouldn’t need to have done anything if China had acted in good faith.

I think the world was caught napping because of China’s irresponsible lying. 
Does the buck stop with them? probably not but they shoulder a large portion of blame.

Edited by Strokes

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11 minutes ago, l444ry said:

For those still trying to deny (to us amateurs) that herd immunity was government policy, you probably need to convince us that these eminent politicians are/were wrong first.

 

Jeremy Hunt is saying he was worried we were going down the herd immunity route. Not that it was ever official policy.

 

Rory Stewart is no longer an MP.

 

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9 minutes ago, MattP said:

To be honest we should have made China a pariah long before this on the basis of its slave labour, internment camps, wet markets, environmental abuse, slaughter for ivory, currency manipulation, human rights record, coal dumping and mass surveillance.

 

Coronavirus is just another piece of shit to emerge from the place. If it wasn't so powerful we would treat it like North Korea. No country comes close to the damage this lot are doing and I'm genuinely surprised at how many in the West are coming out to bat (no pun intended) for them. (Although I fully expected it from Richard Burgon)

Wasn't aware you cared so much about environmental abuse and animal welfare, Matt. :D

 

But in all seriousness, the point is valid and I wish there was something that could be done, but as you say they are powerful, and sadly if we're looking at nations that do all that is said above then they're just part of a very long list of culpability (despite indeed being a major player on it). Which is rather depressing.

 

Just now, Strokes said:

They wouldn’t need to have done anything if China had acted in good faith.

I think the world was caught napping because of China’s irresponsible lying. 
Does the buck stop with them? probably not but they shoulder a large portion of blame.

That last line is pretty much where I come out. Just want to make the distinction between "large portion" and "all".

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3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Wasn't aware you cared so much about environmental abuse and animal welfare, Matt. :D

 

But in all seriousness, the point is valid and I wish there was something that could be done, but as you say they are powerful, and sadly if we're looking at nations that do all that is said above then they're just part of a very long list of culpability (despite indeed being a major player on it). Which is rather depressing.

 

That last line is pretty much where I come out. Just want to make the distinction between "large portion" and "all".

Well I think it’s very difficult to assess other governmental roles in this whilst it is still live. China are back up and running and already profiteering from it. So we can better evaluate their despicable part.

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21 minutes ago, MattP said:

To be honest we should have made China a pariah long before this on the basis of its slave labour, internment camps, wet markets, environmental abuse, slaughter for ivory, currency manipulation, human rights record, coal dumping and mass surveillance.

 

Coronavirus is just another piece of shit to emerge from the place. If it wasn't so powerful we would treat it like North Korea. No country comes close to the damage this lot are doing and I'm genuinely surprised at how many in the West are coming out to bat (no pun intended) for them. (Although I fully expected it from Richard Burgon)


There’s your answer.

 

We sold our industry to them, and therefore made ourselves reliant on them, for a quick buck. We’ll never recover our industry but hopefully this shows we need to at least increase our self-dependence by encouraging and promoting British products. 
 

Shows we need to nationalise infrastructure like our railways as well. China are apparently lurking and I don’t trust those in charge not to grab for the bag of cash when it inevitably comes.

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10 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Well I think it’s very difficult to assess other governmental roles in this whilst it is still live. China are back up and running and already profiteering from it. So we can better evaluate their despicable part.

I think it all should wait until the whole thing has run its course and see where everything has turned out to get a more accurate summation, but that's me.

Edited by leicsmac

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26 minutes ago, l444ry said:

For those still trying to deny (to us amateurs) that herd immunity was government policy, you probably need to convince us that these eminent politicians are/were wrong first.

 

They made it abundantly clear in the first televised announcement with Boris and the 2 scientists.

Hancock also said yesterday that based on the Figures Imperial college presented there would be at least 200,000 deaths and something along the lines he couldn’t let this happen. Hence the change in strategy.

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I was thinking about this footballers should take a pay cut to help out the other staff in their clubs.  And it hit me - if players take a pay cut of millions (overall), they will pay a lot less tax, and this will end up costing the treasury more than covering 80% of the salaries of the furloughed players.  That said, football clubs should still be topping up low salaries to 100%.

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8 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I was thinking about this footballers should take a pay cut to help out the other staff in their clubs.  And it hit me - if players take a pay cut of millions (overall), they will pay a lot less tax, and this will end up costing the treasury more than covering 80% of the salaries of the furloughed players.  That said, football clubs should still be topping up low salaries to 100%.


Couldn’t they keep their pay but agree to donate a set amount after tax back to the club to pay staff?

 

More radically, could they not give up a week or two’s pay? Now I’m not their accountant but you have to think a first team player for a Premier club can afford to go a week without financial ruin.

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1 minute ago, Finnaldo said:


Couldn’t they keep their pay but agree to donate a set amount after tax back to the club to pay staff?

 

More radically, could they not give up a week or two’s pay? Now I’m not their accountant but you have to think a first team player for a Premier club can afford to go a week without financial ruin.

Of course they can afford it, however the uproar I have seen has been mostly How dare Spurs take the HM goverment cash while they pay their players a fortune!  Which is valid, however actually the players taking a pay cut would likley cost the givernment more in tax than paying the furloughed workers.

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41 minutes ago, MattP said:

To be honest we should have made China a pariah long before this on the basis of its slave labour, internment camps, wet markets, environmental abuse, slaughter for ivory, currency manipulation, human rights record, coal dumping and mass surveillance.

 

Coronavirus is just another piece of shit to emerge from the place. If it wasn't so powerful we would treat it like North Korea. No country comes close to the damage this lot are doing and I'm genuinely surprised at how many in the West are coming out to bat (no pun intended) for them. (Although I fully expected it from Richard Burgon)

I agree that China is responsible for a lot of ills in the world and these outbreaks keep happening from their region.  I don't think that we can just isolate them or expect them to take any sanctions lying down, but the rest of the world must unite to apply pressure on China to mend their ways in many respects but in a manner of co operation with Beijing if at all possible.

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1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

Of course they can afford it, however the uproar I have seen has been mostly How dare Spurs take the HM goverment cash while they pay their players a fortune!  Which is valid, however actually the players taking a pay cut would likley cost the givernment more in tax than paying the furloughed workers.

St Albans fox pointed this 2 days ago

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Surely its only the will to do so that stops these guys donating, they have accountants to minimise impact on themselves (maybe the club) and why would they give a toss if the treasury lost out?

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1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

Of course they can afford it, however the uproar I have seen has been mostly How dare Spurs take the HM goverment cash while they pay their players a fortune!  Which is valid, however actually the players taking a pay cut would likley cost the givernment more in tax than paying the furloughed workers.


True, I don’t quite understand why you’d go through the bother of a pay cut (which then obviously drags the PFA into it) than just come to set agreements with players to sacrifice part of their pay packet once it’s received and taxed.

 

That said, the PFA haven’t crowned themselves in glory particularly either...

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1 minute ago, Finnaldo said:


True, I don’t quite understand why you’d go through the bother of a pay cut (which then obviously drags the PFA into it) than just come to set agreements with players to sacrifice part of their pay packet once it’s received and taxed.

 

That said, the PFA haven’t crowned themselves in glory particularly either...

Agenst get involved I guess.  Hard to make them do anything.

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