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If this has been mentions elsewhere,my appologies....

 

A senior fire engineer did not think putting cladding on Grenfell Tower would pose any "issues" for safety, the inquiry into the disaster has heard.

 

WTF...Somebody asked in this forum  is our Society getting dumber..!

She must of known the material,the wind & chimney effect,it comes with job-spec &  the expected Knowledge for the job

Is this because we are scrimping on highly qualified jobs and just  giving qualifications out on paper.are we producing managers who cant Cover their job and take responsibility.....

 

Withinside Any  City Building engineering project,These points use to be general basics,for New and re-rejuvenating buildings,before Councils

could issue cerificates and permission....Have We sacrificed the highly qualified Engineer ( man or woman) by playing the lower  percentages.

This is a School or at least College General Basic question,that would come up every year,since before the 70s and has to be certified ,signed Sealed and passed by the Fire department....With Standards agreed by councils and Businesses. Where have the Real-normal-experts and Certified Controllers gone..!!

 

The Socket und Goverment at all levels have shithoused the past 50-70 years...Beliebig Financial qualifications rate higher than the Engineering needs....The more that comes out,the more disgusted ,embarrassed and Physically sick I feel....

 

Even 40years ago,while in London I questioned (Not alone)if cladding and fire regulations were being Followed,After  coincidentally seeing 2, 6 Story buildings were crapping it...I knew then the regional inspector..( do they still exsist with the same qualifications ?? )

Let me say this seems a massive  deriliction of duty,With more People & Office along the Chain of responsibility. If this is whitewashed..god help UK, Del & Rodney have been Let loose..!! This IMO was no accident,that couldnt be prevented....God I could cry..!!

 

Edited by fuchsntf
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53315008

 

So, in addition to losing her job and her dog, she's now possibly going to face jail time.

 

Thing is though, sort out the US fuzz and the way they operate and this is never a problem in the first place rather than being the heavily implied death threat that it was. She doesn't get nailed to the wall by the internet, the guy doesn't get to wonder if he's going to become just another "mistake" that the police have made against people of colour. Everyone wins.

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6 hours ago, bovril said:

I'm just glad I grew up in the 90s. 

And me :ph34r:

Edited by Smudge

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11 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

Re: James O'Brien

 

EcQ0PCGWAAAoTh6?format=jpg&name=medium

EcQ0PgjWsAI0lTI?format=jpg&name=large

My God, What is going on? Does anyone treat these two absolute nutters seriously, the worlds gone MAD!...Both should be locked away in a nice home where they can dribble their dross to each other all day.Sometimes really struggle to believe how rotten and stupid some of our society have become, to give any sort of credence to to these sort of Loonies!......beggars belief!

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38 minutes ago, Gordon the Great said:

My God, What is going on? Does anyone treat these two absolute nutters seriously, the worlds gone MAD!...Both should be locked away in a nice home where they can dribble their dross to each other all day.Sometimes really struggle to believe how rotten and stupid some of our society have become, to give any sort of credence to to these sort of Loonies!......beggars belief!

I know, right? World's gone mad!

 

Makes one long for the good old days, doesn't it?

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6 hours ago, leicsmac said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53315008

 

So, in addition to losing her job and her dog, she's now possibly going to face jail time.

 

Thing is though, sort out the US fuzz and the way they operate and this is never a problem in the first place rather than being the heavily implied death threat that it was. She doesn't get nailed to the wall by the internet, the guy doesn't get to wonder if he's going to become just another "mistake" that the police have made against people of colour. Everyone wins.

Alternatively the twat could have had her dog on a lead like she was supposed to in the first place. 

 

Whole situation from start to finish is flipping stupid. Got to be a few dozens ways it could have just ended without drama. /facepalm

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The Guardian have taken a brief break from telling us everything is racist to remind us that everything is also sexist:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2020/jul/06/upward-thrusting-buildings-ejaculating-cities-sexist-leslie-kern-phallic-feminist-city-toxic-masculinity

 

Wait till they find out their founder’s views on the abolition of slavery....

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7 hours ago, leicsmac said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53315008

 

So, in addition to losing her job and her dog, she's now possibly going to face jail time.

 

Thing is though, sort out the US fuzz and the way they operate and this is never a problem in the first place rather than being the heavily implied death threat that it was. She doesn't get nailed to the wall by the internet, the guy doesn't get to wonder if he's going to become just another "mistake" that the police have made against people of colour. Everyone wins.

She should never win in that situation, I don't see how you van blame the police in this instance when she's making a false call saying shes in danger lol. I think you've overthought this one and ended up waaaay off. 

 

What I dont get is why she lost her dog or job. I hate how social media smear campaigns cost people their jobs. If you've committed a crime then let the authorities/judges punish you. 

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Not in the news 

I was in B&M  yesterday when i witnessed a  security guard ask a lady to leave because SHE isnt welcome in the shop (i dont know the history) and she accused him of racism as she was "a traveller" i couldnt tell if she was or wasnt she left the shop just after me and got into a car that wasnt parked in the carpark but on the road with the engine running. The guard was probably right and she was in all probability upto no good. Was the guard racist i dont think so, people sometimes throw the racist card down whenever they get the chance and it doesnt help the antiracist cause at all crying wolf is a problem. 

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9 hours ago, fuchsntf said:

If this has been mentions elsewhere,my appologies....

 

A senior fire engineer did not think putting cladding on Grenfell Tower would pose any "issues" for safety, the inquiry into the disaster has heard.

 

WTF...Somebody asked in this forum  is our Society getting dumber..!

She must of known the material,the wind & chimney effect,it comes with job-spec &  the expected Knowledge for the job

Is this because we are scrimping on highly qualified jobs and just  giving qualifications out on paper.are we producing managers who cant Cover their job and take responsibility.....

 

Withinside Any  City Building engineering project,These points use to be general basics,for New and re-rejuvenating buildings,before Councils

could issue cerificates and permission....Have We sacrificed the highly qualified Engineer ( man or woman) by playing the lower  percentages.

This is a School or at least College General Basic question,that would come up every year,since before the 70s and has to be certified ,signed Sealed and passed by the Fire department....With Standards agreed by councils and Businesses. Where have the Real-normal-experts and Certified Controllers gone..!!

 

The Socket und Goverment at all levels have shithoused the past 50-70 years...Beliebig Financial qualifications rate higher than the Engineering needs....The more that comes out,the more disgusted ,embarrassed and Physically sick I feel....

 

Even 40years ago,while in London I questioned (Not alone)if cladding and fire regulations were being Followed,After  coincidentally seeing 2, 6 Story buildings were crapping it...I knew then the regional inspector..( do they still exsist with the same qualifications ?? )

Let me say this seems a massive  deriliction of duty,With more People & Office along the Chain of responsibility. If this is whitewashed..god help UK, Del & Rodney have been Let loose..!! This IMO was no accident,that couldnt be prevented....God I could cry..!!

 

It is a sad indictment of our nation that this enquiry is still on going. When you need quick justice it doesnt happen. If it was a celeb needing a gagging order that seems to happen straight away. Yes it needs to br indepth but it needs to be timely pther lives are still at risk.

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14 minutes ago, twoleftfeet said:

Not in the news 

I was in B&M  yesterday when i witnessed a  security guard ask a lady to leave because SHE isnt welcome in the shop (i dont know the history) and she accused him of racism as she was "a traveller" i couldnt tell if she was or wasnt she left the shop just after me and got into a car that wasnt parked in the carpark but on the road with the engine running. The guard was probably right and she was in all probability upto no good. Was the guard racist i dont think so, people sometimes throw the racist card down whenever they get the chance and it doesnt help the antiracist cause at all crying wolf is a problem. 

I work in retail and we have had to ban a sizable number of people from the store, usually for shoplifting but occasionally for aggressive in store to staff/customers. 

 

You wouldn't believe the amount that try and come back in and then kick off when they are asked to leave. It amazes me the cheek that some people have. They will literally day anything to try and deflect/get away with it.

 

What they forget is, we have CCTV everywhere and keep a record of everything. 

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1 hour ago, filbertway said:

What I dont get is why she lost her dog or job. I hate how social media smear campaigns cost people their jobs. If you've committed a crime then let the authorities/judges punish you. 

Apparently she lost the dog because she was choking it in the video. So the adoption agency reclaimed it. 

 

As for losing her job, got to be a zillion ways that makes sense. Good optics for the company. Mass publicity for the sake of one staff member. Other co-workers not wanting a twat there. Even away from positive company image and ignoring the pretty clear racism behind it, if one of your workers is willing to call the police and blatantly lie to them, how on earth would you trust them in the work place again, especially when handling something as sensitive as insurance work. 

 

Sure, she's probably had it a bit rough. But if the police had shown up and shot the dude, the balance of punishment to crime would have swung the other way I'd imagine. 

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31 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Apparently she lost the dog because she was choking it in the video. So the adoption agency reclaimed it. 

 

As for losing her job, got to be a zillion ways that makes sense. Good optics for the company. Mass publicity for the sake of one staff member. Other co-workers not wanting a twat there. Even away from positive company image and ignoring the pretty clear racism behind it, if one of your workers is willing to call the police and blatantly lie to them, how on earth would you trust them in the work place again, especially when handling something as sensitive as insurance work. 

 

Sure, she's probably had it a bit rough. But if the police had shown up and shot the dude, the balance of punishment to crime would have swung the other way I'd imagine. 

 

Let's be honest, there's pricks everywhere. We all work with them. I think it sums up where we are as a society that an organisation is almost forced to seperate ties with anybody that has appeared in a negative story on social media. 

All they have to do is do nothing for 24 hours and twitter will be angry about something else. It's probably not even a 24 hour news cycle these days.

 

For me, if you are punished and sent to jail and the company doesn't want to stick by you then fair play. I don't think social media should be allowed to be judge, jury and executioner. That's where we are though as a society. I'll never be one to claim someone should lose their job for any other reason than they're bad at their job. People are horrible and much braver in crowds and social media is just one big crowd looking for people to trash and bring down.

 

I also want to make it clear that I absolutely think this woman should be sent to jail, she knows exactly what she was doing. Is that not punishment enough though rather than people trying to ruin every other aspect of your life?

 

Edited to say fair play on the dog thing if she was mistreating it - again, if you have a pet and mistreat it, the animal should be rescued. I've not seen the video in ages so can't actually say whether it was her being a bad owner, or again the adoption agency "being seen to do the 'right thing'"

Edited by filbertway

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20 minutes ago, filbertway said:

 

Let's be honest, there's pricks everywhere. We all work with them. I think it sums up where we are as a society that an organisation is almost forced to seperate ties with anybody that has appeared in a negative story on social media. 

All they have to do is do nothing for 24 hours and twitter will be angry about something else. It's probably not even a 24 hour news cycle these days.

 

For me, if you are punished and sent to jail and the company doesn't want to stick by you then fair play. I don't think social media should be allowed to be judge, jury and executioner. That's where we are though as a society. I'll never be one to claim someone should lose their job for any other reason than they're bad at their job. People are horrible and much braver in crowds and social media is just one big crowd looking for people to trash and bring down.

 

I also want to make it clear that I absolutely think this woman should be sent to jail, she knows exactly what she was doing. Is that not punishment enough though rather than people trying to ruin every other aspect of your life?

 

Edited to say fair play on the dog thing if she was mistreating it - again, if you have a pet and mistreat it, the animal should be rescued. I've not seen the video in ages so can't actually say whether it was her being a bad owner, or again the adoption agency "being seen to do the 'right thing'"

Of course there is. And I'm probably about half way to where you are. Usually these twitter witch hunts wouldn't get anything out of me, and if this was just a case of the woman saying something bad then I'd agree that she shouldn't lose her job. 

 

But for me personally I'd fall into the the category of not wanting liars around me. If I was in charge of a business then I'd need to trust everyone. 

 

And on the dog honestly I'm just repeating what was in the BBC article. I can't remember seeing the dog mistreated myself. 

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15 hours ago, Lionator said:

It's not just a Lib Dem problem, it's most of the left. Who do you think is most likely to win the leadership? I think Moran would be better than Davey.

I have no idea, I don't think it should be close but that could be due to my age and experiences. I'll just say if you've got one person with 21 years experience and someone who has 3 years of experience and it's not clear cut who is more recognisable and who has achieved more of relevance then I think it's pretty clear who is the greater talent. I'm not enjoying the leadership contest, the tough questions aren't being addressed and a lot of people are being snake like. 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, filbertway said:

 

Let's be honest, there's pricks everywhere. We all work with them. I think it sums up where we are as a society that an organisation is almost forced to seperate ties with anybody that has appeared in a negative story on social media. 

All they have to do is do nothing for 24 hours and twitter will be angry about something else. It's probably not even a 24 hour news cycle these days.

 

For me, if you are punished and sent to jail and the company doesn't want to stick by you then fair play. I don't think social media should be allowed to be judge, jury and executioner. That's where we are though as a society. I'll never be one to claim someone should lose their job for any other reason than they're bad at their job. People are horrible and much braver in crowds and social media is just one big crowd looking for people to trash and bring down.

 

I also want to make it clear that I absolutely think this woman should be sent to jail, she knows exactly what she was doing. Is that not punishment enough though rather than people trying to ruin every other aspect of your life?

 

Edited to say fair play on the dog thing if she was mistreating it - again, if you have a pet and mistreat it, the animal should be rescued. I've not seen the video in ages so can't actually say whether it was her being a bad owner, or again the adoption agency "being seen to do the 'right thing'"

The whole thing is extremely unsavoury. She has behaved terribly, adopting an attitude of horrendous entitlement, and/or vicious racism.

On the other side, I do not like the kangaroo court that is twitter/social media as its just more "todays woke warriors" targeting the latest social failure to the point of destruction.

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54 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Of course there is. And I'm probably about half way to where you are. Usually these twitter witch hunts wouldn't get anything out of me, and if this was just a case of the woman saying something bad then I'd agree that she shouldn't lose her job. 

 

But for me personally I'd fall into the the category of not wanting liars around me. If I was in charge of a business then I'd need to trust everyone. 

 

And on the dog honestly I'm just repeating what was in the BBC article. I can't remember seeing the dog mistreated myself. 

Aye I get that, totally willing to accept a company making a decision that somebodies personality/work doesn't fit in with what the company wants or needs. I just hate seeing people sacked because of pressure, rather than for their own reasons. I have so much respect for people and companies that rise above the venom and peer pressure and say "no - this person made a mistake but we're going to stick by them and help them improve".

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30 minutes ago, filbertway said:

Aye I get that, totally willing to accept a company making a decision that somebodies personality/work doesn't fit in with what the company wants or needs. I just hate seeing people sacked because of pressure, rather than for their own reasons. I have so much respect for people and companies that rise above the venom and peer pressure and say "no - this person made a mistake but we're going to stick by them and help them improve".

But it’s not a mistake is it? Hitting reply all by accident on an email is a mistake.

 

She broke the law, when called out on it she lied to the police that the guy was threatening her specifically calling out his race. Whilst the outcry online is over the top a company has a right to sack someone who’s lied and made stuff up, if I were her client I wouldn’t want to work with her.. and it’s entirely justifiable that she should be sacked for this alone. 

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13 minutes ago, Shram said:

But it’s not a mistake is it? Hitting reply all by accident on an email is a mistake.

 

She broke the law, when called out on it she lied to the police that the guy was threatening her specifically calling out his race. Whilst the outcry online is over the top a company has a right to sack someone who’s lied and made stuff up, if I were her client I wouldn’t want to work with her.. and it’s entirely justifiable that she should be sacked for this alone. 

Already said above chief. I'm talking in general rather than this specific example. If a company decides to sack someone for the reasons you've said and them alone then that's absolutely fine by me. It's when they feel they have to sack someone due to pressure from twitter warriors that I take issue with. Don't tell people how to do their jobs and don't jump on them just because you disagree with the way they handle a situation. (Just to be clear - I am not directing this at you. I'm directing it at the social media mobs)

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5 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Alternatively the twat could have had her dog on a lead like she was supposed to in the first place. 

 

Whole situation from start to finish is flipping stupid. Got to be a few dozens ways it could have just ended without drama. /facepalm

Absolutely. Though her reaction to a gentleman simply suggesting she put her dog on a lead suggests that she might have ended up in drama elsewhere anyway, tbh.

 

4 hours ago, filbertway said:

She should never win in that situation, I don't see how you van blame the police in this instance when she's making a false call saying shes in danger lol. I think you've overthought this one and ended up waaaay off. 

 

What I dont get is why she lost her dog or job. I hate how social media smear campaigns cost people their jobs. If you've committed a crime then let the authorities/judges punish you. 

Honestly, I don't think I have overthought it - and it's the very last point you've made in this post that is bolded that makes me think so.

 

One of the main reasons why these social media smear campaigns have began to exist in order to to call out and shame people involved in various alleged racist incidents is precisely because a lot of people doing them think that the system for dealing with such incidents is itself corrupt and unreliable, and should be changed. As such, driven by a need to either push a change to that system or right seeming injustices because the relevant authorities cannot be trusted to (or both), people are deciding to simply cut out the middleman because they honestly think it would do as good a job of punishment/restitution fitting the crime as the police and courts in the US right now.

 

Of course, that's rather sad and it may well not be the right thing to do, either - I'm personally not often a fan of vigilante justice without proper due process. But the only way - the only way - that you can successfully address enough people rebelling against a broken system like this is to change that system. That action doesn't seem to be happening yet.

 

(Or you could do nothing and continue to denounce the idea of such "cancel culture" and pretend that everything is fine in the way that someone like Trump does, but that has the potential to get rather messy before enough people get bored of the idea that it "goes away".)

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The company had every right to dismiss the woman. The easiest route would be that she brought the company’s reputation into disrepute. Plenty of people would avoid a company after seeing a video like that, knowing she was working there. She brought that on herself. 
 

Also, I’ve never held my dog by it’s collar on it’s hind legs for over a minute, with all the pressure of the collar on it’s throat. It probably wasn’t hurt but it was unnecessary given that she had a lead in her hand. 

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28 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

One of the main reasons why these social media smear campaigns have began to exist in order to to call out and shame people involved in various alleged racist incidents is precisely because a lot of people doing them think that the system for dealing with such incidents is itself corrupt and unreliable, and should be changed. As such, driven by a need to either push a change to that system or right seeming injustices because the relevant authorities cannot be trusted to (or both), people are deciding to simply cut out the middleman because they honestly think it would do as good a job of punishment/restitution fitting the crime as the police and courts in the US right now.

Come on, that preposterous, you are advocating vigilant justice based on nothing more than tweets, you are effectively supporting a kangaroo (virtual) court room 

If there is a problem with system, you change it, you do not work around it, and if the momentum for change is there, yet no change is forthcoming, then change the process of change.

This is  no different than the angelic change.org pollsters, screw process, I want a change to suit my frame of mind now. :nono:

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Just now, Dahnsouff said:

Come on, that preposterous, you are advocating vigilant justice based on nothing more than tweets, you are effectively supporting a kangaroo (virtual) court room 

If there is a problem with system, you change it, you do not work around it, and if the momentum for change is there, yet no change is forthcoming, then change the process of change.

This is  no different than the angelic change.org pollsters, screw process, I want a change to suit my frame of mind now. :nono:

With respect, I am doing no such thing - hence my carefully chosen words and qualifier immediately below that paragraph that states "Of course, that's rather sad and it may well not be the right thing to do, either - I'm personally not often a fan of vigilante justice without proper due process". What I am advocating is an insight into the mindset of people who would do the things you describe and why.

 

I absolutely agree that change would be much better through much more legit channels as you suggest, but other people are clearly not as patient (because their own lives and health may well be the ones at risk in the status quo) nor nearly as confident that the change you speak of is even possible without this kind of action as I am.

 

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8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

With respect, I am doing no such thing - hence my carefully chosen words and qualifier immediately below that paragraph that states "Of course, that's rather sad and it may well not be the right thing to do, either - I'm personally not often a fan of vigilante justice without proper due process". What I am advocating is an insight into the mindset of people who would do the things you describe and why.

 

I absolutely agree that change would be much better through much more legit channels as you suggest, but other people are clearly not as patient (because their own lives and health may well be the ones at risk in the status quo) nor nearly as confident that the change you speak of is even possible without this kind of action as I am.

My apologies, you are correct that I rather overstepped the mark in my suggestion of your advocacy towards vigilantism! I do however, find the use of social media an unpleasant trumpet for views, be they minority or majority held, a platform beyond the boundaries of societal norms.

 

But then again, that is likely just because I am a grumpy old fart  and out of touch. 

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8 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

My apologies, you are correct that I rather overstepped the mark in my suggestion of your advocacy towards vigilantism! I do however, find the use of social media an unpleasant trumpet for views, be they minority or majority held, a platform beyond the boundaries of societal norms.

 

But then again, that is likely just because I am a grumpy old fart  and out of touch. 

Not at all, I can see why you came to that conclusion and I should perhaps have been clearer in the first instance.

 

I can also totally understand the concern about social media - tbh though, I think it the same as any other widespread technology...which is only as good or as bad as the motivations as the people that use it. And, all being told, given the access to legit information it and the Internet itself has supplied, I'd probably rather have it around than not, for all the very many faults it has.

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