Jump to content

Recommended Posts

15 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Well infections in Europe have now exceeded the March peak, so you tell me. The government appears to be committed to biting the bullet and resisting lockdown through the inevitable prospect of a second wave albeit with strict guidelines in place and the continual 'whack a mole' strategy of provincial lockdown. Given the fact that large sections the ****wit British public are either unable to comprehend these guidelines/regulations or flagrantly flout them, another national lockdown may be unavoidable. 

Let's be a bit more precise. The intensively measured infections today have surpassed the poorly measured infections from March.

 

I'm no rocket surgeon, but this is not something I'm finding to be unusual.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nuneatonfox in Manchester said:

It’s not about being inconvenienced though, it’s about people losing their livelihoods. Do you have any idea of the scale of the damage to the hospitality/ events and music industries? It’s redundancy’s galore.

 
People have free will to isolate and shield if they are vulnerable. Nobody is forcing pensioners out into mosh pits.


My business is just about managing and I will continue to work and also socialise within the guidelines. I will also respect social distancing with people I don’t know who could be vulnerable, and continue to FaceTime my elderly relatives rather than put them at risk.

I will not however stay indoors in my flat for another 3 months without being able to earn money and see my friends.

 

Whatever you think of our govt (I'm not a fan), the current measures - local/regional restrictions & curfews - are designed to avoid any need for a full national lockdown, which would be disastrous.

Covid hospitalisations are now rising significantly again, so it is no longer just a case of young, healthy people getting infected with no problems. The risk of deaths & long-Covid problems mushrooming, necessitating stricter action is clear.

 

Your first comment is a good point - and a good argument for targeted govt support for the hospitality, event and music industries, not for people to pretend that Covid risk doesn't exist.

Otherwise, if Covid infections, hospitalisations (& inevitably deaths) continue to increase, many such businesses will become non-viable, anyway. Many of their customers are middle-aged/old or have vulnerabilities - or are young and won't want to take the risk if Covid is running rampant again.

 

I find your second comment offensive. As a bloke in his 50s with a teenager & a health vulnerability, how long should I exercise the "free will to isolate and shield"? My impression is that you'd be happy for me to stay under house arrest indefinitely, so long as you were able to get out of your flat, earn money and see your friends. Try reversing the situation. Try imagining that this virus affected young people disproportionately (as was the case with Spanish Flu). Then imagine that old gits like me told you that you had the free will to isolate and shield (for however long it takes, by implication) while I got on with earning money and seeing my friends....after all nobody would be forcing you out into a mosh pit & we could FaceTime you to cheer you up!

 

Young people may go out more than the middle-aged or elderly, but a lot in their 50s & 60s still work and people of all ages want to avoid social isolation.....which becomes a nightmare if you're forced to exercise your "free will" to isolate because others have allowed Covid to run rampant, putting your life at risk. I'm fortunate in that I work from home anyway, but was still starting to crack up after 5 months without seeing friends or getting out to social/cultural/sports events. People don't cease to have human needs because they're no longer young. Even very elderly people in care homes have suffered psychologically & health-wise, or even died, due to having to isolate during the first wave.

 

We need to fight this thing together (including support for those in sectors particularly impacted) so as to achieve the best outcomes for all, not end up with different generations looking out for their own interests.

In saying that, I'm well aware that other policies - of a Govt I've never voted for - have favoured wealthy older generations (e.g. lack of affordable housing & insecure employment v. good pensions for the elderly). It needs to work both ways as there's enough strife without different generations ending up fighting one another for their rival self-interests.

 

Postscript: What a twat Johnson is, encouraging people to go back to the workplace if possible! He should be doing the opposite - encouraging people to work from home, if possible, to help minimise the spread of Covid, while providing support or helping generate new employment opportunities for those working in sectors adversely affected by that (like hospitality & transport).

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Whatever you think of our govt (I'm not a fan), the current measures - local/regional restrictions & curfews - are designed to avoid any need for a full national lockdown, which would be disastrous.

Covid hospitalisations are now rising significantly again, so it is no longer just a case of young, healthy people getting infected with no problems. The risk of deaths & long-Covid problems mushrooming, necessitating stricter action is clear.

 

Your first comment is a good point - and a good argument for targeted govt support for the hospitality, event and music industries, not for people to pretend that Covid risk doesn't exist.

Otherwise, if Covid infections, hospitalisations (& inevitably deaths) continue to increase, many such businesses will become non-viable, anyway. Many of their customers are middle-aged/old or have vulnerabilities - or are young and won't want to take the risk if Covid is running rampant again.

 

I find your second comment offensive. As a bloke in his 50s with a teenager & a health vulnerability, how long should I exercise the "free will to isolate and shield"? My impression is that you'd be happy for me to stay under house arrest indefinitely, so long as you were able to get out of your flat, earn money and see your friends. Try reversing the situation. Try imagining that this virus affected young people disproportionately (as was the case with Spanish Flu). Then imagine that old gits like me told you that you had the free will to isolate and shield (for however long it takes, by implication) while I got on with earning money and seeing my friends....after all nobody would be forcing you out into a mosh pit & we could FaceTime you to cheer you up!

 

Young people may go out more than the middle-aged or elderly, but a lot in their 50s & 60s still work and people of all ages want to avoid social isolation.....which becomes a nightmare if you're forced to exercise your "free will" to isolate because others have allowed Covid to run rampant, putting your life at risk. I'm fortunate in that I work from home anyway, but was still starting to crack up after 5 months without seeing friends or getting out to social/cultural/sports events. People don't cease to have human needs because they're no longer young. Even very elderly people in care homes have suffered psychologically & health-wise, or even died, due to having to isolate during the first wave.

 

We need to fight this thing together (including support for those in sectors particularly impacted) so as to achieve the best outcomes for all, not end up with different generations looking out for their own interests.

In saying that, I'm well aware that other policies - of a Govt I've never voted for - have favoured wealthy older generations (e.g. lack of affordable housing & insecure employment v. good pensions for the elderly). It needs to work both ways as there's enough strife without different generations ending up fighting one another for their rival self-interests.

 

Postscript: What a [deleted] Johnson is, encouraging people to go back to the workplace if possible! He should be doing the opposite - encouraging people to work from home, if possible, to help minimise the spread of Covid, while providing support or helping generate new employment opportunities for those working in sectors adversely affected by that (like hospitality & transport).

I can see the reasons behind what you say, but I think you're drawing the wrong conclusions.  As you say, you've been locked down for months.  And as is now apparent, it has done little good and you could remain locked down for years yet.  There is no point, from your point of view, in trying to keep things as they are now.  The current approach is to enforce lockdown until a vaccinie is ready, which may be several years off if ever.  We need to do something different.

 

Sweden are apparently doing very well, presumably because they didn't do lockdown, they didn't close the pubs and schools, and probably because the young and fit got the virus and - whisper it - may have achieved herd immunity.  Perhaps it's time to try that.

Edited by dsr-burnley
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

I can see the reasons behind what you say, but I think you're drawing the wrong conclusions.  As you say, you've been locked down for months.  And as is now apparent, it has done little good and you could remain locked down for years yet.  There is no point, from your point of view, in trying to keep things as they are now.  The current approach is to enforce lockdown until a vaccinie is ready, which may be several years off if ever.  We need to do something different.

 

Sweden are apparently doing very well, presumably because they didn't do lockdown, they didn't close the pubs and schools, and probably because the young and fit got the virus and - whisper it - may have achieved herd immunity.  Perhaps it's time to try that.


A couple of thoughts about this:

 

Firstly, with regard to Sweden, my interpretation of them from what I’ve read is that the measures have been far lesser, but their non-disastrous result is more because of general compliance and personal responsibility. If Britain can follow a lead on that then we might be onto something. But that’s an If.

 

Secondly, you’re right that we don’t know if and when a vaccine will arrive, although it does look odds on to be here within a year. But herd immunity? We actually have no idea how long that would last, with or without a vaccine. It’s not yet a fair assumption to say the strongest 75% of the population get it and then the problem is fixed. We could still end up in exactly the same situation this time next year and Alf will still be stuck peering at the inside of a window.

Edited by Dunge
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Dunge said:


A couple of thoughts about this:

 

Firstly, with regard to Sweden, my interpretation of them from what I’ve read is that the measures have been far lesser, but their non-disastrous result is more because of general compliance and personal responsibility. If Britain can follow a lead on that then we might be onto something. But that’s an If.

 

Secondly, you’re right that we don’t know if and when a vaccine will arrive, although it does look odds on to be here within a year. But herd immunity? We actually have no idea how long that would last, with or without a vaccine. It’s not yet a fair assumption to say the strongest 75% of the population get it and then the problem is fixed. We could still end up in exactly the same situation this time next year and Alf will still be stuck peering at the inside of a window.

He might at that.  But if we stay as we are and don't get a vaccine, he still will.  Herd immunity is the only way out, whether achieved by vaccine or by natural causes.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, simFox said:

Let's be a bit more precise. The intensively measured infections today have surpassed the poorly measured infections from March.

 

I'm no rocket surgeon, but this is not something I'm finding to be unusual.

 

I'm not convinced these intensively measured tests are as accurate as we are led to believe.

 

The threshold for a positive or negative result has not been set in stone and are laboratories running to the same levels of consistency?  Particularly now they are overrun?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Whatever the government do they will have people shouting at them and that's what makes this whole thing so difficult. Whether it be lockdowns, restrictions, masks, opening businesses, closing business, kids at school or not, universities open or not, work from home or go into offices, vaccines yes or no. So many people have opinions or what should be done and we all generally have our own interests at heart.

 

I can live with rule of 6 throughout winter if needed but with flexibility for organised events. And maybe add mixing households if there is a huge increase in an area. I want to avoid a full lockdown. Apart from limits of international travel and occasional football match I'm pretty happy with the current restrictions in my area, I can still do most things I did before lockdown, I can still take my boy to activities for the time being, and enjoy the fact I can book everything in advance rather than the free for all of turning up on the day. 

 

Hopefully those who are vulnerable can keep themselves safe whilst cases inevitably rise with schools and universities open and that doesn't mean they have to completely lockdown. 

Edited by RowlattsFox
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, simFox said:

Let's be a bit more precise. The intensively measured infections today have surpassed the poorly measured infections from March.

 

I'm no rocket surgeon, but this is not something I'm finding to be unusual.

What's a rocket surgeon? 

 

If anything, testing is more spurious and strained right now in the UK. Intensive measurement, means that it is of greater reliability and accuracy. 

 

What's your point and what do you prescribe over a thread on a football forum? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

So in Oadby and Wigston don't have more than six people in your household or garden and they must be within your established household bubbles, instead, head down to 'spoons for a gallon of John Smiths and burger deal and sit cheek by jowl with a hundred other ****wits.

Edited by Line-X
Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

I can see the reasons behind what you say, but I think you're drawing the wrong conclusions.  As you say, you've been locked down for months.  And as is now apparent, it has done little good and you could remain locked down for years yet.  There is no point, from your point of view, in trying to keep things as they are now.  The current approach is to enforce lockdown until a vaccinie is ready, which may be several years off if ever.  We need to do something different.

 

Sweden are apparently doing very well, presumably because they didn't do lockdown, they didn't close the pubs and schools, and probably because the young and fit got the virus and - whisper it - may have achieved herd immunity.  Perhaps it's time to try that.

 

Done little good? Daily UK Covid deaths were in the high hundreds, sometimes over 1000 in spring. Lockdown brought them down to single figures - still only low double figures.... for now.

That has certainly been at considerable cost - but countless thousands of lives are worth a considerable cost.

 

The Govt has made multiple cock-ups, but the current approach is not simply to enforce a lockdown until a vaccine is ready. There is an effort to balance control of Covid with limitations on economic/personal/social damage. That's why lockdown restrictions were eased considerably, lots of things were opened up again (schools, shops, pubs) & the switch was made to local restrictions, curfews etc. As you rightly say, we can't be sure there'll even be a workable vaccine. In the meantime, it's a balancing act, while hoping for a vaccine or alleviation treatments, it's a case of trying to learn more about the health impacts of the virus - and learning more about what does and doesn't work in restricting Covid damage while minimising the inevitable disruption.

 

After infection rates fell and the full lockdown was eased in the summer, I was able to at least do some of the stuff that I could do pre-Covid. Not the same as pre-Covid but better than lockdown. Another full lockdown is much more likely if people allow Covid to spread widely - and I'd very much like to avoid that, hence my support for retaining some lesser restrictions and strengthening them (short of a full lockdown) as required by circumstances & local infection rates.

 

If you got your way and Covid was allowed to spread widely, whether or not the Govt imposed a lockdown I'd end up having to choose between effective house arrest or taking a significant risk with my life & long-term health.

 

As for Sweden doing very well......we'll have to wait until it's all over to make a final judgment.

But here are the death rates per million for the Nordic countries so far:

- Denmark: 110

- Finland: 61

- Norway: 49

- Sweden: 580

I bet the friends/family of those 580 per million are less impressed with the Swedish record than you are.

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Finnaldo said:

Honestly, I’m not sure another national lockdown would do much for two weeks, and it’s just giving the economy another kicking. Especially when you’re allowing schools & workplaces to remain open, 

It’s all on a lag. The cases are two weeks old from when they’ve been caught. The hospitalisation are another week after. Deaths another week or two after. The data is always old 

Link to post
Share on other sites

With regards to these latest local lockdowns, i would have thought the government would have reversed what they had allowed to open until the cases of covid started to decline again. It seems no coincidence that once the schools opened, cases started to rise again, surely the thing to have done would be to close the schools and monitor the situation over a few weeks to see if that is causing the problem.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Line-X said:

Well infections in Europe have now exceeded the March peak, so you tell me. The government appears to be committed to biting the bullet and resisting lockdown through the inevitable prospect of a second wave albeit with strict guidelines in place and the continual 'whack a mole' strategy of provincial lockdown. Given the fact that large sections the ****wit British public are either unable to comprehend these guidelines/regulations or flagrantly flout them, another national lockdown may be unavoidable. 

To be fair though Spain and France have hardly held themselves in equal glory. Germany and Italy have

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

To be fair though Spain and France have hardly held themselves in equal glory. Germany and Italy have

Agree, but I am purely talking from a national perspective - but then a pandemic knows no boundaries. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Quite sadly means **** all when hospitalisation rate in England has near doubled since the start of September - 866 today 

The warnings from Spain and France are clearly there to see. Whether our incompetent goverment will learn from them this time round remains to be seen.

In the greater Madrid area yesterday 400 out of the 500 intensive care beds were occupied by Covid patients.  Similar picture coming out of Marseille in France.

Meanwhile in the Czech Republic, where there infections are going up considerably, 20% of all infections are among school children.

There will be some kind of national lockdown/restrictions within the next few weeks. Holiday is being brought forward for some civil servants in anticipation. The idea was, I suspect, to hold off until the October half term but that seems unlikely now.

Looks likely pubs and restaurants may have to close or face restrictions, people dissuaded from using public transport and severe restrictions on social gatherings. The number of contacts people have will need to be reduced as this is the only way to bring infection numbers under control or the likelihood is the health service risks being overhwelmed.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

With regards to these latest local lockdowns, i would have thought the government would have reversed what they had allowed to open until the cases of covid started to decline again. It seems no coincidence that once the schools opened, cases started to rise again, surely the thing to have done would be to close the schools and monitor the situation over a few weeks to see if that is causing the problem.  

They can't close schools because they have said openly they will be the last thing to be closed in any local lockdown, presumably even after shops and businesses. They have staked a lot politically on keeping them open.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, reynard said:

The warnings from Spain and France are clearly there to see. Whether our incompetent goverment will learn from them this time round remains to be seen.

In the greater Madrid area yesterday 400 out of the 500 intensive care beds were occupied by Covid patients.  Similar picture coming out of Marseille in France.

Meanwhile in the Czech Republic, where there infections are going up considerably, 20% of all infections are among school children.

There will be some kind of national lockdown/restrictions within the next few weeks. Holiday is being brought forward for some civil servants in anticipation. The idea was, I suspect, to hold off until the October half term but that seems unlikely now.

Looks likely pubs and restaurants may have to close or face restrictions, people dissuaded from using public transport and severe restrictions on social gatherings. The number of contacts people have will need to be reduced as this is the only way to bring infection numbers under control or the likelihood is the health service risks being overhwelmed.

 

You seem to be swimming against the tide on here fella

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, reynard said:

They can't close schools because they have said openly they will be the last thing to be closed in any local lockdown, presumably even after shops and businesses. They have staked a lot politically on keeping them open.

Well that's just stupid. If the problem stems from school children who are probably asymptomatic and therefore making it difficult to spot the signs of the virus, taking the virus home to their parents and relatives and nothing can be done to prevent that happening, we're basically fvcked.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m totally at a loss to explain the figure of 3 cases per 100000 in North West Leicestershire, are people actually bothering to get tested around here? 
 

Every surrounding area is way higher. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Livid said:

I’m totally at a loss to explain the figure of 3 cases per 100000 in North West Leicestershire, are people actually bothering to get tested around here? 
 

Every surrounding area is way higher. 

Out of interest, what is the population of north west leicestershire?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...