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4 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

 

Hmmm - it was their worst death toll within half of a year in 150 years. 

 

They have the 13th highest death when based on per capita/population. Higher than France, Netherlands, Iran*. 

 

To give that figure context, if you compare to their neighbours

Sweden - 578.6 deaths per million 

Denmark - 114.71 

Finland - 62.7

Norway - 51.75 

And (yes, I'm banging this drum again):

 

Korea (similar to the UK in terms of population number and development/health and economic resources available) - 8.29 deaths per million

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10 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

 

Hmmm - it was their worst death toll within half of a year in 150 years. 

 

They have the 13th highest death when based on per capita/population. Higher than France, Netherlands, Iran*. 

 

To give that figure context, if you compare to their neighbours

Sweden - 578.6 deaths per million 

Denmark - 114.71 

Finland - 62.7

Norway - 51.75 

I suppose it comes down to what you prioritise.

 

The quality of life of 10 million. (Sweden)

 

Or saving the life of 40/50k already vulnerable people. 

 

In 10 years when the vast majority of those would be dead anyway, we'll be kicking ourselves we didn't choose the former.

 

Call me cynical, brutal or heartless. It's just the better thing for the human race, long term and short.

Edited by Nod.E
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8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

And (yes, I'm banging this drum again):

 

Korea (similar to the UK in terms of population number and development/health and economic resources available) - 8.29 deaths per million

Let's all be like Korea.

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10 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

I suppose it comes down to what you prioritise.

 

The quality of life of 10 million. (Sweden)

 

Or saving the life of 40/50k already vulnerable people. 

 

In 10 years when the vast majority of those would be dead anyway, we'll be kicking ourselves we didn't choose the former.

 

Call me cynical, brutal or heartless. It's just the better thing for the human race, long term and short.

 

You're cynical, brutal, heartless and correct.

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2 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

Let's all be like Korea.

Only one month off work and furloughed for me despite interacting with the public heavily and that was back in March (and not too many hours lost for jobs across the board compared to other places)?

Keeping the numbers low through targetted measures that ensure really efficient knowledge of outbreaks while keeping businesses open as much as they can be?

An economic downturn as a result of this that, while nasty, doesn't really compare to other similar places?

 

I'll be honest, perhaps the UK could learn a thing or two.

 

Of course, the Koreans had a couple of advantages in that they had a plan already in place for something like this and so it wasn't so difficult to execute, and because of that the numbers never really spiralled out of control in the same way as other similar countries and that allowed for track and trace to be very effective (because you're dealing with less people to track and trace in the first place).

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6 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

I suppose it comes down to what you prioritise.

 

The quality of life of 10 million. (Sweden)

 

Or saving the life of 40/50k already vulnerable people. 

 

In 10 years when the vast majority of those would be dead anyway, we'll be kicking ourselves we didn't choose the former.

 

Call me cynical, brutal or heartless. It's just the better thing for the human race, long term and short.

 

It's only a short jump from that thinking to compulsory euthanasia of the elderly and incurably sick.

 

If the elderly and incurably sick were put to death (humanely, of course), it would undoubtedly free up a lot of resources that could be used to improve the quality of life of the younger, healthier majority of the population.

The vast majority of the elderly and incurably sick would be dead in 10 years, anyway, so where's the problem with that? :ph34r:

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1 minute ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

It's only a short jump from that thinking to compulsory euthanasia of the elderly and incurably sick.

 

If the elderly and incurably sick were put to death (humanely, of course), it would undoubtedly free up a lot of resources that could be used to improve the quality of life of the younger, healthier majority of the population.

The vast majority of the elderly and incurably sick would be dead in 10 years, anyway, so where's the problem with that? :ph34r:

The difference is that in the case of Covid, it's a matter of needs must.

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12 minutes ago, Crinklyfox said:

That's a good idea.  If we had a track and trace system as efficient as theirs that would be a good start.

Would only have been possible if implemented from the start.

 

Would only have been implementable from the start with a population with a history of dictatorship.

 

It's pie in the sky, I'm afraid.

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8 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

Would only have been possible if implemented from the start.

 

Would only have been implementable from the start with a population with a history of dictatorship.

 

It's pie in the sky, I'm afraid.

Are the Koreas getting mixed up here (easy mistake to make tbh) or is it not known that around 50% of the current South Korean population (that is to say those under 40 years old) have known nothing but a fully functional democracy?

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12 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

Would only have been possible if implemented from the start.

 

Would only have been implementable from the start with a population with a history of dictatorship.

 

It's pie in the sky, I'm afraid.

 

Hmmm! South Korea was pretty undemocratic a few decades back so that might be arguable at a stretch, but.....

 

- Germany has a history of dictatorship and has done pretty well

- Russia is arguably still a dictatorship, after a much longer dictatorship, and has done pretty badly

- Spain & Italy have a history of dictatorship and got swamped

- New Zealand has no history of dictatorship, and is another country held up as a role model for good practice

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30 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Hmmm! South Korea was pretty undemocratic a few decades back so that might be arguable at a stretch, but.....

 

- Germany has a history of dictatorship and has done pretty well

- Russia is arguably still a dictatorship, after a much longer dictatorship, and has done pretty badly

- Spain & Italy have a history of dictatorship and got swamped

- New Zealand has no history of dictatorship, and is another country held up as a role model for good practice

We're talking about a country that still has compulsory military service.

 

Maybe dictatorship (or history of) isn't the measure I'm looking for. I'm talking about a culture of complicity.

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1 minute ago, Nod.E said:

We're talking about a country that still has compulsory military service.

 

Maybe dictatorship (or history of) isn't the measure I'm looking for. I'm talking about a culture of complicity.

...and so does Sweden, Russia and a variety of other nations. Is that really a measure of complicity?

 

Might want to ask Park Geun-Hye and Chun Doo-Hwan just how complicit the culture was towards authority when over a million people were in the streets looking for them to get kicked out. When was the last time over a million people were out in the streets of the UK?

 

Sorry if I'm targetting this a bit much, but there's a cultural stereotype of Asian folks being humble and subservient to authority being implied here - as if Western nations "stick it to the Man" more - and it simply isn't true.

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12 hours ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

And another thing. Nottingham has 3 universities. Cases have got out of control since students came back. I absolutely understand primary and secondary school being a priority to open and keep open. But why are universities? Remote learn for now. Is there any good, valid reason universities should be having all the students on campus? 

 

The highest rates per 100,00 in europe are all cities that have large universities in the UK, it's no surprise that now we are seeing cases among the over 65's rising in those areas.

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6 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

We're talking about a country that still has compulsory military service.

 

Maybe dictatorship (or history of) isn't the measure I'm looking for. I'm talking about a culture of complicity.

 

Switzerland and Israel are among the countries that still have compulsory military service - and Israel is among the countries currently worst afflicted by Covid.

France had compulsory military service within my adult existence - and, amazingly, is reintroducing it, I've just discovered....didn't know that.

 

Do you mean a culture of compliance rather than complicity?

I don't know enough about South Korea to comment but I know that New Zealand is a pretty libertarian country, and has performed well.

 

A "culture of complicity" sounds more like a description of British Joe Public repeatedly voting in Tory Governments operating hand-in-glove with global big business interests. :whistle:

(Ignore me, just joking - I don't want to get into a wider political argument or to derail the Covid thread!)

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15 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

...and so does Sweden, Russia and a variety of other nations. Is that really a measure of complicity?

 

Might want to ask Park Geun-Hye and Chun Doo-Hwan just how complicit the culture was towards authority when over a million people were in the streets looking for them to get kicked out. When was the last time over a million people were out in the streets of the UK?

 

Sorry if I'm targetting this a bit much, but there's a cultural stereotype of Asian folks being humble and subservient to authority being implied here - as if Western nations "stick it to the Man" more - and it simply isn't true.

I can't remember a time. Because as Brits we're relatively apathetic.

 

Compliant or engaged, call it what you want. Different to what we have here and track and trace was always doomed to failure here.

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3 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

I can't remember a time. Because as Brits we're relatively apathetic.

 

Compliant or engaged, call it what you want. Different to what we have here and track and trace was always doomed to failure here.

I'd definitely prefer the term engaged tbh.

 

I actually agree that "track and trace" would be a lot more difficult in the UK (though not impossible) - but I think that's down largely to the lack of a plan and infrastructure based on it, rather than the way the population is fundamentally.

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40 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

...and so does Sweden, Russia and a variety of other nations. Is that really a measure of complicity?

 

Might want to ask Park Geun-Hye and Chun Doo-Hwan just how complicit the culture was towards authority when over a million people were in the streets looking for them to get kicked out. When was the last time over a million people were out in the streets of the UK?

 

Sorry if I'm targetting this a bit much, but there's a cultural stereotype of Asian folks being humble and subservient to authority being implied here - as if Western nations "stick it to the Man" more - and it simply isn't true.

 

Last year.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47678763

 

 

2003.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2765041.stm

 

 

Edited by Buce
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8 minutes ago, Buce said:

Not verified that the numbers were above a million except by the organisers themselves - I did check numbers both of those before I posted the initial response just in case because they were big. :P

 

Point taken, though - the Koreans actually getting what they wanted with their marches notwithstanding.

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37 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Switzerland and Israel are among the countries that still have compulsory military service - and Israel is among the countries currently worst afflicted by Covid.

France had compulsory military service within my adult existence - and, amazingly, is reintroducing it, I've just discovered....didn't know that.

 

Do you mean a culture of compliance rather than complicity?

I don't know enough about South Korea to comment but I know that New Zealand is a pretty libertarian country, and has performed well.

 

A "culture of complicity" sounds more like a description of British Joe Public repeatedly voting in Tory Governments operating hand-in-glove with global big business interests. :whistle:

(Ignore me, just joking - I don't want to get into a wider political argument or to derail the Covid thread!)

Don't be sorry that's a very apt description of this nation of Tory loyalists.  Complicit is exactly the word for them when you look back on all the awful decisions taken in uk politics running back over a decade and still going

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53 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Don't be sorry that's a very apt description of this nation of Tory loyalists.  Complicit is exactly the word for them when you look back on all the awful decisions taken in uk politics running back over a decade and still going

 

Yep.

 

That flapping you can hear is the sound of Brexit chickens coming home to roost. We have a govt packed with Brexit loyalists, led by the most inept PM in living memory, at a time we need a govt packed with talented politicians who can actually do the job they are paid for.

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Whatever people's opinions are, I think what we seeing with the national BBC is very wrong.  Also in regards to youtube, facebook etc.

 

I have always suspected the BBC is a governments media arm, as for the last 20 years or so I have observed they have tended to lean to supporting whichever government is in power.

 

But since covid has been a thing, they have took this to an entire new level, the majority of their stories are sourced from ministers or government data, they time stories to maximise supporting the message from government, they are refusing to cover many stories that would arguably go against the government's plan.  I gave many examples during the Leicester lockdown, but what I have observed in the past 4 weeks, is that many local news media for different parts of the country are filled with reports about cases spreading in schools, kids been sent home, teachers been sent home, bus drivers been concerned for their health all plastered in local news media, and I have not seen a single story, not even "one" related to spread in schools on the BBC website.  It is clear they are censoring it.

 

Recently this was made public.

 

Notice how low down mixing in households is yet its consistently the first to be locked down, the school data is censored on this as well, not on the list at all.  We get they want to keep schools open, but they shouldn't be censoring all of the reports and the information on national media.  Let the public make their own opinion fairly instead of manipulating it.

 

Now I have called some young people selfish and can see on the list alcohol venues are high up, but I will say this, it is wrong to pick on young adults, whilst at the same time pretending schools are not a problem.  You cannot a blame a set of the population when the failure is in government policy.  Ultimately if 90% of the spread is on Uni campus and in schools, then almost everything else is pointless to lockdown, it becomes irrelevant noise on the data.  I think the main reason they going to do stricter lockdown during half term is so people don't think its down to schools been shut, instead they will say "oh look its the new lockdown measures".

 

As for youtube, facebook etc. the recent policies on censoring so called conspiracy theories is essentially censoring anything that doesn't match government or WHO policies.  Anything that disagrees with either seems to be considered conspiracy theory, and I don't like the direction things are heading in, I don't agree with most conspiracy theories I have read, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't have a voice in a free society, let people make their own minds up on what is right and wrong.

4bMNc4w.jpg

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3 minutes ago, Chrysalis said:

Whatever people's opinions are, I think what we seeing with the national BBC is very wrong.  Also in regards to youtube, facebook etc.

 

I have always suspected the BBC is a governments media arm, as for the last 20 years or so I have observed they have tended to lean to supporting whichever government is in power.

 

But since covid has been a thing, they have took this to an entire new level, the majority of their stories are sourced from ministers or government data, they time stories to maximise supporting the message from government, they are refusing to cover many stories that would arguably go against the government's plan.  I gave many examples during the Leicester lockdown, but what I have observed in the past 4 weeks, is that many local news media for different parts of the country are filled with reports about cases spreading in schools, kids been sent home, teachers been sent home, bus drivers been concerned for their health all plastered in local news media, and I have not seen a single story, not even "one" related to spread in schools on the BBC website.  It is clear they are censoring it.

 

Recently this was made public.

 

Notice how low down mixing in households is yet its consistently the first to be locked down, the school data is censored on this as well, not on the list at all.  We get hey want to keep schools open, but they shouldn't be censoring all of the reports and the information on national media.  Let the public make their own opinion fairly instead of manipulating it.

 

Now I have called some young people selfish and can see on the list alcohol venues are high up, but I will say this, it is wrong to pick on young adults, whilst at the same time pretending schools are not a problem.  You cannot a blame a set of the population when the failure is in government policy.

 

As for youtube, facebook etc. the recent policies on censoring so called conspiracy theories is essentially censoring anything that doesn't match government or WHO policies.  Anything that disagrees with either seems to be considered conspiracy theory, and I don't like the direction things are heading in, I don't agree with most conspiracy theories I have read, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't have a voice in a free society, let people make their own minds up on what is right and wrong.

4bMNc4w.jpg

You have a valid point on schools.

 

As much as it has no bearing on my life,I dont want schools to shut, there are very few people that do.  However, there is absolute radio silence on saying they are contributing to the spread, its almost seen as offensive to even dare think it in the media. 

 

Much easier to blame the hospitality sector, the SNP and Tories are less likely to lose key votes that way.

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