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2 minutes ago, Nuneatonfox in Manchester said:

I swear some people think that if the tories weren't in power, we would all be dancing around together holding hands living with the virus in perfect harmony.

 

IMO non-compliance is the major cause of the deterioation, and most people don't watch the news briefings so they are pointless. In modern day popular culture it just isn't cool to listen to the droning on of some posh white bloke with power. A nationwide campaign should have been introduced early on every social media platform. A clear message reaching out to young people of all sections of society. Perhaps Ser Marcus of Rashford as the face would have been a good start and more people would have obeyed the restrictions. Just a thought.

I don’t think anyone has denied that compliance is an issue, it is... we’re British when do we ever do what we’re told as a nation. 
 

The argument is A) how badly the tories have handled it.

B) how years of cost cutting exercises has left the emergency services unable to cope.

 

No one is saying any other party would do any better, what we want to see is the party in power be proactive and have a bit of foresight.... you can’t say “how could they see this coming” because that’s exactly why you have governments, not just to run the country, but to be able to have measures in place to be able to deal with national emergencies, they clearly didn’t have this kind of foresight and here we are, in the middle of a national crisis and we can’t deal with it. 
 

As I have previously stated, the governments job first and foremost is to lead, and they have absolutely failed to do so.

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7 minutes ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

I guess I am in the minority re those two women - serves them bloody well right and will, hopefully, act as a deterrent to others.

I also hope the police start randomly going into shops and boarding buses and issuing fines to adults not wearing masks/shields too

Yep, from the other side of the world it looks like too many people looking for loopholes & standing on the pettiest of “rights”, plus a government that couldn’t organise a pissup in a brewery. With records in hospitalisation and death being broken daily, surely just stay at home until the fcking virus has cooled off a bit! Donkeys lead by donkeys.

 

Sorry guys.

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5 minutes ago, Nuneatonfox in Manchester said:

I swear some people think that if the tories weren't in power, we would all be dancing around together holding hands living with the virus in perfect harmony.

 

IMO non-compliance is the major cause of the deterioation, and most people don't watch the news briefings so they are pointless. In modern day popular culture it just isn't cool to listen to the droning on of some posh white bloke with power. A nationwide campaign should have been introduced early on every social media platform. A clear message reaching out to young people of all sections of society. Perhaps Ser Marcus of Rashford as the face would have been a good start and more people would have obeyed the restrictions. Just a thought.

Even if you want to ignore the state of the health service and the pms day to day decision making during the pandemic and focus solely on non compliance. 

 

Then that should also fall somewhat at this government's feet. the buy in to the first lockdown was pretty good. Its no where near as good this time round what's happened in the mean time? 

 

The government's no 1 aide blatantly broke lock down rules wasn't sacked and then the pm and minsters came out in defence of him saying things like "it's OK to use common sense" . It shouldn't but of course that had a massive effect on the publics compliance even if its sub consciencly. We were also told to eat out to help out, encougued back into work. Etc etc 

 

I do sympathise on a lot of levels with the government its an awful situation. but it has contiunouesly shat on itself and is clearly not up to the job. 

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45 minutes ago, The whole world smiles said:

So just so I can understand your veiw point.

 

you think the government has handled the pandemic well and the health service has been funded adequately over the last 10 years and in a good place to deal with a major global pandemic? 

 

 

No I don't think I said anything remotely resembling that, if I did please show me where? 

 

What I did say, however, in response to your comment that more people would have survived Covid 19 if the NHS had all the funding in the world, is that I don't believe that to be true, and that any lack of funding has not directly contributed to deaths from Covid, and that Italy as an example has seen their health service overwhelmed, despite not being governed by our government. 

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22 minutes ago, Phube said:


Can’t answer for anyone else but from my NHS frontline worker perspective; yes the NHS is criminally underfunded and the lack of beds, staff and ICU equipment is contributing to the excessive death toll...

 

But... the current infection rate has nothing to do with NHS underfunding but selfish/ignorant public wantonly ignoring advice either by not wearing mask due to some really good reason or thinking their bubble can include four grandparents, the next door neighbour and Trisha who has to pop in for a cuppa but only once a week. 
 

It’s amazing that I have worked every day  (less normal holidays) at a large NHS Trust with patients and had members of my team have COVID, go shopping every week, my wife works at a uni and have a daughter at high school - all three COVID hotspots. Not one of us has had it (to our knowledge and I get tested bi-weekly and had the anti-body test in the summer). I’m not saying everyone who has caught COVID is to blame but if EVERYONE actually obeyed the rules this pandemic would die out pretty fast! And we could all get back to normal!!

Yeah I despise Tories as much as anyone however the sheer entitlement of a lot of people to not see the seriousness of the situation is just as bad. The government were put in a difficult place because people wanted their christmas, they wanted to see their family and they didn't want a virus to stop them. Weak government, and this is the consequence. The media and their 'Christmas is cancelled' narrative was also appalling. Merkel was hard and decisive, people in Germany didn't mix at Christmas and their cases and deaths are declining. Pathetic, British arrogance, and now we're paying in lives. 

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7 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

No I don't think I said anything remotely resembling that, if I did please show me where? 

 

What I did say, however, in response to your comment that more people would have survived Covid 19 if the NHS had all the funding in the world, is that I don't believe that to be true, and that any lack of funding has not directly contributed to deaths from Covid, and that Italy as an example has seen their health service overwhelmed, despite not being governed by our government. 

I'm glad you've mentioned Italy. 

 

As of 2017 Italy was one of the few eu-15 countries to spend less on health per capita per head than us. 

 

So the fact that they have also had severe problems dealing with covid points that there is a relationship between healthcare spending (or lack of it) and covid deaths. 

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2 hours ago, The Fox Covert said:

This is gross abuse of authority by the police and should be called out. Have the police not got better priorities than this?

When the lockdown was announced on Monday I also noticed the ambiguity of the little phrase 'local area'. Local area could mean 'parish', district council or county boundary or even something else. The well-paid civil servants who draw up this stuff really ought to be able to frame a regulation which is simple and unambiguous and if they don't some of our 650 MPs ought to be smart enough to sniff out inconsistencies and come up with something better. The regulations are actually the law and the law in England does not recognise the principle of 'not in the spirit'.

I have already written to my MP asking if he would get clarification from the government of which he is a member and will happily share his response in the public interest. 

I agree with this. As usual not enough thought as to detail. I wonder if they had run there as part of their excercise would they have stopped them? The definition of local is being interpreted one way by one force and another by another force. I'm fortunate enough to live in the country, not in a village. What is local to me? 1 mile, 2 miles, three? Frankly I've no idea. If I want to go for a run is a 10km round trip ok or do I need to stay within a 5km circuit? There is no public transport so driving is essential. The nearest supermarket is 8 miles in either direction would I be judged differently going one way from the other as both are covered by different forces.

 

Common sense ought to prevail but unfortunately at times neither the public nor the police seem able to apply it.

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Underfunding -- ---
The H&S sectors get over half of the entire Government budget & in order to pay Paul more, you need to rob Peter of Transport, Defence, Education, Public order & safety etc etc its a fine balancing act, take to much & we're having a conversation about the lack of funding for 1 of those sectors instead.


The NHS is 1 of the largest employers in the world with over 1m full time staff which amounts to around 45% of the Health budget, out of the remaining you then need to fund everything else that runs the show.

 

In my eyes its not so much the lack of funding from the Government, as i say the majority of the wedge goes on H&S, its the perception of the NHS gravy train where private & public (Serco) firms charge extortionate consultancy fees, it's these and all the other leeches inflating service costs which drains the budget, you could throw all you want into the budget but they will just up the service charges, this is where change needs to happen first.

Edited by BKLFox
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3 minutes ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

The government has found hundreds of billions of pounds to deal with this pandemic so the idea you couldn't have funded the NHS and indeed other departments better in the last 10 years falls on deaf ears now. The money has always been there, they just didn't want to use it. 

Rainy day money but who is going to be putting it back in? Its going to take years to pay these potentially 2yrs off its not sustainable

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9 minutes ago, boosmanana said:

I genuinely despise being British sometimes. Why can the British public not just do as they’re asked/told? Why can’t our weak leadership not show a bit of backbone and ensure that the laws are followed? People in other countries across the globe might not like their leader/leaders and might have differing opinions, but they do as they’re told, and as a result are keeping the amount of people dying from the virus down and also ensuring that their lives can return to normal much earlier than ours. 
 

Well when they do, the public cry off to the media saying jobsworth police hounded them when they met up for a walk.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814

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24 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Yeah I despise Tories as much as anyone however the sheer entitlement of a lot of people to not see the seriousness of the situation is just as bad. The government were put in a difficult place because people wanted their christmas, they wanted to see their family and they didn't want a virus to stop them. Weak government, and this is the consequence. The media and their 'Christmas is cancelled' narrative was also appalling. Merkel was hard and decisive, people in Germany didn't mix at Christmas and their cases and deaths are declining. Pathetic, British arrogance, and now we're paying in lives. 

The rules in Germany allowed Christmas mixing, well they did in the news article I saw before Christmas. 

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9 minutes ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

The government has found hundreds of billions of pounds to deal with this pandemic so the idea you couldn't have funded the NHS and indeed other departments better in the last 10 years falls on deaf ears now. The money has always been there, they just didn't want to use it. 

So you think we should just have thousands of empty, but highly staffed beds, just waiting in case this happened? For years on end? Like I asked before, who is paying for that? 

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Just now, Izzy said:

Well when they do, the public cry off to the media saying jobsworth police hounded them when they met up for a walk.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814

The government shouldn't give a shit about the public crying off to the media, they have a majority of 80. For some who thinks he's Churchill, Johnson is weak as shit. 

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1 hour ago, Pliskin said:

It’s all well and good taking the piss out of the police for handing notices out, but you’ve got to bare in mind they have probably seen more legislation changes to one thing in a few months than most have seen in a career.

 

If anyone has seen how the legislation is worded a lot of the time it can be left open to interpretation... 

 

The gov website states that if you are to leave home it is to be for work or essential shopping, and that you must remain within your area, town, village or part of the city you live in..... this on the face value of it may seem pretty straight forward but if you live on a border things could potentially get awkward, because you have left your area.... but it could be only a few miles.

 

Point is, I think the powers that be were not satisfied with the amount of tickets being handed out initially, and it is likely the directive from the government will be for cops to have a zero tolerance approach to people who can’t justify why they are out, and out of their areas... it’s shit but it’s shit for everyone, having the bounties changed from month to month is a bit of a piss take to all concerned, so I can understand why some cops may be less lenient than others. 

It isn't straightforward, and you are also allowed to leave home for exercise. The government haven't made it easy for the police to enforce breaches of the lockdown area by failing to state exactly what 'local area' means. It could mean parish, district council or county or even something else entirely. Scotland, which has a competent, capable and caring politician at the helm, has a rule on leaving home which is simple, straightforward and easy to understand. It says local government area (there is a single tier local government system in Scotland) plus five miles. So for example if you live in Kibworth, near the centre of Harborough district you could go to Wigston or Enderby, just inside the neighbouring authority. How difficult is that?

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Biggest worry for me is how poor the contingency plan and response to an emergency has been. Benefits of doubt in March but no excuse in this second wave. 

 

Problem with all the lockdowns or restrictions is someone complains if it affects them, whether it be hospitality, gyms and leisure, schools and kids sports. It's always we shouldn't have to close or something like that. Completely understand why by the way. 

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27 minutes ago, The whole world smiles said:

I'm glad you've mentioned Italy. 

 

As of 2017 Italy was one of the few eu-15 countries to spend less on health per capita per head than us. 

 

So the fact that they have also had severe problems dealing with covid points that there is a relationship between healthcare spending (or lack of it) and covid deaths. 

image.thumb.png.693c183c43891a7b8130a6aeb4f4f0e7.png

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5 minutes ago, bovril said:

The government shouldn't give a shit about the public crying off to the media, they have a majority of 80. For some who thinks he's Churchill, Johnson is weak as shit. 

I'm sure Boris doesn't give a shit about people crying off to the media, that wasn't the point.

 

The poster stated weak leadership and not enforcing the laws. Well on this occasion, the law was enforced and the women were fined. 

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4 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

So you think we should just have thousands of empty, but highly staffed beds, just waiting in case this happened? For years on end? Like I asked before, who is paying for that? 

The Work & Jobs were there to be given...Doctors Many Nurses &  care staff..doing Too much overtime..Medical staff over-worked,and covering

a  or 2 missing positions...!!!

Private Business would of failed if they incompetently staffed and asked qualified workers to do And share other qualified Work Not in their sphere...

Sorry crap argument..!!

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3 minutes ago, The whole world smiles said:

1732338728_Figure5_TheUKspentbelowtheOECDmedianonhealthcaregovernanceandfinancing.thumb.png.41c39448d89baf2954051fe04cb6122b.png

And The US are fairing exceptionally well, aren't they? I think your graph proves my point very well, it doesn't matter how much you spend, people are dying anyway 

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2 minutes ago, Izzy said:

I'm sure Boris doesn't give a shit about people crying off to the media, that wasn't the point.

 

The poster stated weak leadership and not enforcing the laws. Well on this occasion, the law was enforced and the women were fined. 

He does. He cares about being popular and is incapable of making difficult decisions and communicating them to the general public.

 

Also a bit tired of people calling him "Boris" but whatever. 

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